The Lives and Deaths of Cities

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Yeah. I don't get Look's view there. Montreal is the only big city in Canada that I feel is making genuine advances on urbanism that will actual build a city with real character in the long run. But that doesn't lend itself to obsessions like counting skyscraper condos (Toronto's view of urbanism).

Montreal's new development is definitely a step above Toronto's (as is Vancouver's), and better care is being paid to things like the public realm and heritage preservation; but it's also early in its current boom cycle. I remember a decade ago when there was a lot of optimism surrounding Toronto's ascendancy; now we're tired of the blue-glass condos crowding out the skyline and the cost of living.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I think Toronto's dynamism is rather fake. So much of it built on a giant ponzi scheme of real estate. If there's ever a real slowdown in Canada, I think we'll see Toronto hit the skids harder than some other major cities.

That's a Canadian problem in general; Toronto is at least arguably our most diversified economy with the deepest pool or wealth & corporate presence - though, not that that's saying much in the global context A real estate slowdown could do the city some good though: there's a large entrepreneurial & creative community that have seen their industries and businesses cannibalized by real estate who could use some breathing room.

It certainly has a more dynamic economy than Vancouver anyway, the city that can't even organize New Years' Eve fireworks or a Santa Claus parade anymore due to a dearth of corporate sponsors.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Enter Jane Jacobs, then.

Of course the Montreal Gazette disagrees.

https://montrealgazette.com/news/jane-jacobs-got-it-wrong

Quebec would have to play its game extraordinarily well to even survive its first decade as a state. To the degree that assets within its borders would be contested by Canadian or Anglosphere actors, its leaders would be portrayed as Putin-like figures in even the New York and London press (particularly the latter). To be honest, the project would probably need some sort of hidden sponsoring faction in DC and the capitals to even avoid being a stillbirth. This issue probably doesn't arise again until a period that sees the US itself fracture at its seams, at which point it could be born alongside a few other countries.

But Montreal exists in a haze. Canada is a determinedly Anglosphere country at this point. The most Quebec-friendly voices among the elites of Toronto and the West really go no further than entertaining a pleasant "folklore region" beyond the Ottawa river, leaving Montreal as its tourism-metropolis.

[Martin Mtl]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Montreal is doing quite well but there are still some key streets like St-Denis that are struggling badly. It's also a bit of fragile renaissance I sense, though hopefully it stays on the right track.

St-Denis is not struggling badly. In fact, it's doing pretty well these days with many new shops opening and the REV making it even more attractive.

[kool maudit]

Mods feel free to re-thread this Quebec stuff, it's not what the OP intended for this thoughtful thread but it has come up now...

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Martin Mtl

St-Denis is not struggling badly. In fact, it's doing pretty well these days with many new shops opening and the REV making it even more attractive.

Good news then!

[Martin Mtl]

Originally Posted by Loco101

My friends who live there tell me how wonderful of a place it is to raise children. I've visit Montreal quite often and don't see how the city represents the whole province's political climate. Some of it sure but most people in the city are quite open to the outside world.

That is true. Montreal is its' own thing compare to the rest of the province.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

Quebec would have to play its game extraordinarily well to even survive its first decade as a state. To the degree that assets within its borders would be contested by Canadian or Anglosphere actors, its leaders would be portrayed as Putin-like figures in even the New York and London press (particularly the latter). To be honest, the project would probably need some sort of hidden sponsoring faction in DC and the capitals to even avoid being a stillbirth. This issue probably doesn't arise again until a period that sees the US itself fracture at its seams, at which point it could be born alongside a few other countries.

But Montreal exists in a haze. Canada is a determinedly Anglosphere country at this point. The most Quebec-friendly voices among the elites of Toronto and the West really go no further than entertaining a pleasant "folklore region" beyond the Ottawa river, leaving Montreal as its tourism-metropolis.

Quebec accidentally backing into independence due to external factors in the Canadian federation, North America or the world (as opposed to an internal buildup of independence sentiment) has been growing on me a lot as a possible historical rendez-vous at some point in the future.

A ton of countries around the world actually owe their independence to this type of historical happenstance.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Martin Mtl

That is true. Montreal is its' own thing compare to the rest of the province.

Yes, the rest of the province is much more calm politically!

(Just teasing. You know I love Montreal.)

[Zeej]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

But Montreal exists in a haze. Canada is a determinedly Anglosphere country at this point. The most Quebec-friendly voices among the elites of Toronto and the West really go no further than entertaining a pleasant "folklore region" beyond the Ottawa river, leaving Montreal as its tourism-metropolis.

Fair assessment

[kool maudit]

The other, much more Quebec-bearish clarifier for Montreal is the one where Quebec gets loose but is picked to pieces, losing some of its Northern lands, native lands and the Montreal archipelago, with Montreal becoming some sort of city-province or even city-state. This would actually probably suit Montreal's shady island-port character, but it would be bad for Quebec and for the French language in North America (the city would drift English again due to the weight and pull of its surroundings, and minus the Quebec government).

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

How many flights does Montreal's airport have? How many assets do its companies control? How many headquarters does it have? If we shift away from economic power, or rule it to be an irrelevant marker for this city, what are the endowments of its universities? What does its main library look like? Is it home to prominent architects, or are the prominent architects of the era, even if based elsewhere, represented in its large constructions? How renowned are its museums?

The airport is a specific sore point for Montrealers, given how mismanaged it is by the federal agency in charge of YUL. Air Canada and other airlines are very keen to route more international flights there, but the lack of vision by the agency has caused a traffic calamity at the airport that can't be solved in the short-run, and severe capacity restraints with no evident solution.

For the other factors you've identified like main library, museums, prominent architects, museums, corporate power etc., all Canadian metropolises can't measure up to their global peers. I don't think it's a Montreal specific problem. It goes to show that even after Canada's urban renaissance, we're still severely behind other truly global and world class cities.

[kool maudit]

The Mirabel debacle was very hard on Montreal aviation. This was the equivalent of the Champlain bridge not working out. Very big L for Montreal, whose greatest feats are usually infrastructural.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

Mods feel free to re-thread this Quebec stuff, it's not what the OP intended for this thoughtful thread but it has come up now...

Eh, the thread goes where it goes.

If I had to drive a point, or a direction, maybe something that Montreal lost or gained that really made Montreal more itself in a personal sense might be apropos.

The 1950s and early 1960s pictures on the commercial-street level aren't Montreal. Oh, they're in the same location, yes, but they're too Anglo - the signage is all wrong. It's the 1970s-1990s pictures that give the city its sense of place; the city fit its people. Even Super Sexe.

Which brings up a question: Is the generic-ization of Canadian cities a cause or effect?

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by thewave46

Eh, the thread goes where it goes.

If I had to drive a point, or a direction, maybe something that Montreal lost or gained that really made Montreal more itself in a personal sense might be apropos.

The 1950s and early 1960s pictures on the commercial-street level aren't Montreal. Oh, they're in the same location, yes, but they're too Anglo - the signage is all wrong. It's the 1970s-1990s pictures that give the city its sense of place; the city fit its people. Even Super Sexe.

Which brings up a question: Is the generic-ization of Canadian cities a cause or effect?

I think a lot of places feel like they are less "themselves" than in previous decades, but it's not universal. Of Montreal and Toronto, Montreal has generally mostly loved itself, which is always an advantage in creating a place-culture.

You need a bit of provincialism amidst the cosmopolitanism to make that work. You need a little bit of not knowing or caring how they do it elsewhere.

That '70s-'90s Montreal really leaned into its own ambiguities. Maybe it's still like that. I'd have to spend time there to know. When I think of places that are doing that in 2023, or that might feel like they are becoming more "themselves", Miami is one that comes to mind. I also think Copenhagen, as mentioned above, is really flourishing with a sense of self-mastery right now.

[Kilgore Trout]

I think kool is underestimating Montreal's economic importance. The economy here is very diverse, so it doesn't dominate in any one sector. But you have tech companies like Lightspeed that are HQ'd here, or foreign companies like Ubisoft that are technically headquartered elsewhere but have their base of operations here. There are aerospace companies and pharma companies and big engineering or architecture firms that do a lot of international work. There are a lot of international organizations including a bunch of UN headquarters.

And then you have homegrown companies that quietly dominate their industries like Couche-Tard, which is now the largest convenience store operator in the world, bigger than 7-Eleven – big enough to have been on the verge of acquiring Carrefour before it was blocked by the French government.

I've heard the "tourism economy" thing before but it's objectively not true. Tourism in Greater Montreal is worth about $500 million each year, which is only a fraction of the overall GDP, which is $235 billion.

Originally Posted by Martin Mtl

St-Denis is not struggling badly. In fact, it's doing pretty well these days with many new shops opening and the REV making it even more attractive.

Yes, St-Denis is doing better than at any point in the past 10 years. Lots of new businesses opening and crucially it has become a streetwear destination for teenagers and early 20-somethings.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

That's a Canadian problem in general; Toronto is at least arguably our most diversified economy with the deepest pool or wealth & corporate presence - though, not that that's saying much in the global context A real estate slowdown could do the city some good though: there's a large entrepreneurial & creative community that have seen their industries and businesses cannibalized by real estate who could use some breathing room.

Agreed, thought it's not as diversified as we'd like to believe. The oligarchic grip on corporate Toronto is tighter than ever, and as TrueNorth mentioned most of the 'dynamism' and wealth generated in the last decade is a fakehead propped up by real estate speculation.

The city has embarked on a joyriding decade of Casperization, and it's now a druggie desperately craving another hit of low interest rates and higher property prices.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

And then you have homegrown companies that quietly dominate their industries like Couche-Tard, which is now the largest convenience store operator in the world

I do sometimes think of this one. Circle K is the biggest chain of gas stations here, which is owned by Couche-Tard. Bombardier makes some of Stockholm's rolling stock, too. Which is to say that when I encounter "Canada" in my daily life, I encounter Montreal.

[Kilgore Trout]

I mean, if we want to get into a discussion of international relevance and importance, there is a framework for that. According to the GaWC index, Montreal is an Alpha- city, equivalent to Boston, San Francisco, Stockholm, Shenzhen, Bangkok and Taipei, among others. I'd say that sounds about right.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

I've heard the "tourism economy" thing before but it's objectively not true.

On this, though, I didn't mean that it actually was a tourism economy, but that its mindshare in English Canada can lead to this assumption.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

I think kool is underestimating Montreal's economic importance. The economy here is very diverse, so it doesn't dominate in any one sector. But you have tech companies like Lightspeed that are HQ'd here, or foreign companies like Ubisoft that are technically headquartered elsewhere but have their base of operations here. There are aerospace companies and pharma companies and big engineering or architecture firms that do a lot of international work. There are a lot of international organizations including a bunch of UN headquarters.

And then you have homegrown companies that quietly dominate their industries like Couche-Tard, which is now the largest convenience store operator in the world, bigger than 7-Eleven – big enough to have been on the verge of acquiring Carrefour before it was blocked by the French government.

On that front Montreal does surprisingly well relative to Toronto. Aside from the highly coddled Big5 banks and insurance majors, and the lecherous telecoms, Toronto has very few homegrown champions to speak of that drives innovation and/or makes a global impact. Toronto still mainly functions as a branch plant for foreign Fortune 500 companies.

It reminds me of SACO, who I recently learned were the Montreal creatives behind the Vegas sphere. Even before they mentioned Montreal, I already ruled out in my mind that they would be from Toronto: https://globalnews.ca/video/10008910/las-vegas-sphere-canadians-behind-mind-blowing-attraction