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  #121  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2023, 4:33 PM
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MolsonExport MolsonExport is offline
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Check my head? you have an anti-racism quote from LBJ of all people
Puh-lease
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  #122  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2023, 4:40 PM
Obadno Obadno is offline
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Lawns make sense for large parks where people can lounge around and play soccer, volleyball, football, etc.

They don't make much sense for front yards since most people don't actually use them for any utilitarian purpose other than aesthetics. or one that is at least productive like planter boxes with fruits and vegetables is also better than simply a lawn.
Aesthetics are absolutely critical; the modernist destruction of pretty things is inexcusable I thought we had all realized that by now. But I agree I don't think lawns should be there for vanity, a lot of grass in urban neighborhoods in hot climates is literally an urban heat island fighting measure. We should take a model of oasis in the desert, and maybe that does come with hard lines in the city plan beyond which the landscaping should be 100% natural or whatever.

I also like the idea of subsidizing people growing productive yards en mass, gardens, small farms, small animal husbandry (Chickens, Goats, etc), beekeeping etc.
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  #123  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2023, 4:59 PM
edale edale is offline
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Originally Posted by homebucket View Post
Lawns make sense for large parks where people can lounge around and play soccer, volleyball, football, etc.

They don't make much sense for front yards since most people don't actually use them for any utilitarian purpose other than aesthetics. A front yard with native landscaping that can promote wildlife and a natural ecosystem like bees, butterflies, hummingbirds, etc, or one that is at least productive like planter boxes with fruits and vegetables is also better than simply a lawn.
Most people who have lawns also have flowers, bushes, trees...things that contribute to the ecosystem. I don't know why Ihearthed says there shouldn't be lawns in Ohio. It rains all the time there, almost no one has irrigation for their lawns. You might have to put a hose-connected sprinkler out for a week or so in the summer, but otherwise lawns there are supported by the natural precipitation that falls.

I get the arguments for not having lawns in dry places like California and Arizona. It makes sense to have xeroscapes in those climates, as it's very wasteful to irrigate everyday just to have a lawn. The comparison to water usage from agriculture is pretty dumb, as you're actually getting food from the water used by ag, whereas irrigation for a lawn just gets you a pretty green lawn. I imagine the Western US would be a FAR less desirable place to live if irrigation for lawns was prohibited. Walking around LA, you see lush, green landscapes all over the place-- this in a city that averages something like 15 inches of rain a year, which falls in just a few months. That's the advantage the west has over the midwest and northeast. They can import water and irrigate so they can live in lush green environments year round. The midwest/northeast get plenty of rain to naturally have those environments, but they can't import the sun and warmth during winter. The west gets to play pretend with their landscapes in a way the midwest/northeast can't.
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  #124  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2023, 5:34 PM
Obadno Obadno is offline
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Most people who have lawns also have flowers, bushes, trees...things that contribute to the ecosystem. I don't know why Ihearthed says there shouldn't be lawns in Ohio. It rains all the time there, almost no one has irrigation for their lawns. You might have to put a hose-connected sprinkler out for a week or so in the summer, but otherwise lawns there are supported by the natural precipitation that falls.

I get the arguments for not having lawns in dry places like California and Arizona. It makes sense to have xeroscapes in those climates, as it's very wasteful to irrigate everyday just to have a lawn. The comparison to water usage from agriculture is pretty dumb, as you're actually getting food from the water used by ag, whereas irrigation for a lawn just gets you a pretty green lawn.
No its not dumb, when people are told their 1/8th acre of grass is wasteful and damaging society while major corporations are waiting millions of times more water to grow cash crops at cheap sweetheart rates.

We are not talking about the difference between weather one should water a garden or water a lawn. We are talking about people being forced to kill their landscaping and make their neighborhoods measurably hotter and uglier while the actual culprits of water waste ARE GIANT AGG CORPORATIONS WAISTING MILLIONS OF ACRE FEET OF WATER WITH NO CRITICISMS


this is a hill I WILL ABSOLUTELY DIE ON. Every single house in the west could have lush landscaping and still be using a fraction of the water used to grow fruits and vegetables in places like the Central Valley, Colorado River basin, and Interior Washington and Oregon.

American agg is NOT EFFICIENT not in water use and not in land use. Why? Because we never have had to be because our lads are so naturally fertile, sunny and reliably precipitous.

We do not grow nuts and veg in California and Yuma because it is rational its because with the abundant sunshine you can grow these types fo intensive plants year-round as long as you water the shit out of them. Which was fine when the populations here were drastically smaller.

Instead, you can make agriculture be more efficient in its water usage. that alone could cut water waste by 20%. You could encourage the more efficient land use to transfer that agg to the Midwest or other areas with less water constraint, you could have the companies and farmers grow crops with less water needs.

All of this SHOULD BE DONE before anyone comes to an average homeowner citizen and tells them they need to kill their plants, they need to cut back their use to save the planet and preserve water. its BULLSHIT and I will not stand for it. You got people in California ratting out their neighbors for watering plants when Monsanto grows ALMONDS

its absurd. Its actually unjust.
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  #125  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2023, 5:56 PM
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Steely Dan Steely Dan is online now
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I am the farthest thing from shocked.
Pip initially used the word "confused", which seems apt.

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You joined an Urban and Skyscraper forum and you are confused why people like this way of life and support it?

With statements like the below:

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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
People will pay a premium and reduce their standard of living for very desirable areas
You truly don't seem to grasp the fact that some people gauge their standard of living by measures beyond just the square footage of their home or the acreage of their backyard.

Again, I give you the example of me and my cousin:


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My cousin and I both bought homes for our young families at roughly the same time ~6 years ago and at almost exactly the same price point.

I got an awesome duplex unit in a Chicago flat building in an even awesomer Chicago neighborhood.

He got a gigantic vinyl box on a half-acre lot in a former cornfield located out on the exurban fringe in the exact middle of nowhere.

If you asked each of us, we'd both tell you that the other one has a considerably lower "standard of living".
I can actually understand (even as I disagree with him) why my cousin thinks he has the higher standard of living, but you don't seem to be able to grasp why I firmly believe that I do.
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  #126  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2023, 10:01 PM
mhays mhays is offline
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In efficiency terms, growing salad crops with intense irrigation is NOTHING like growing feed crops that go up the food chain, particularly for cows. That's incredibly inefficient.

I'm not a vegetarian, but I find myself eating way less meat for this reason.
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  #127  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2023, 11:40 PM
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Pleased to see GenX dropping all the Beastie references because I can't stand it, I know you planned it
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  #128  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2023, 1:58 AM
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
Pleased to see GenX dropping all the Beastie references because I can't stand it, I know you planned it
Gen Z here

Beastie Boys rings a bell.. 90s boyband right? "i want it that way" and such?
















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You guys are laughing now but Jacksonville will soon assume its rightful place as the largest and most important city on Earth.

I heard the UN is moving its HQ there. The eiffel tower is moving there soon as well. Elon Musk even decided he didnt want to go to mars anymore after visiting.
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  #129  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2023, 2:42 AM
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^ That's not even funny... well kinda
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  #130  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2023, 2:47 AM
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^ That's not even funny... well kinda
hehehehe

*throws grenade into thread*
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You guys are laughing now but Jacksonville will soon assume its rightful place as the largest and most important city on Earth.

I heard the UN is moving its HQ there. The eiffel tower is moving there soon as well. Elon Musk even decided he didnt want to go to mars anymore after visiting.
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  #131  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2023, 12:44 PM
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MolsonExport MolsonExport is offline
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Pleased to see GenX dropping all the Beastie references because I can't stand it, I know you planned it
So What'cha Want? Pass the mic
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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. (Bertrand Russell). Sweet Loretta fart thought she was a cleaner, but she was a frying pan. (John Lennon)
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  #132  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2023, 2:46 PM
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While I don't think the Houston Metro will get to the 30+ million mark by 2100 but I do think the 20+ million mark is very achievable.

As with other premiere cities, they all start as low density and develop in layers, adding density as they replace the previous layer. Only a handful of European and American cities are as far as Houston at year 187.

https://imgur.com/vYlKYn5



For Houston to become a 20+ metro , I really see the core in the blue area getting really dense. The main artery streets (red) will be Main Street and Allen Parkway/Kirby. Both feed into downtown and we are seeing multiple high rise developments along those streets.

Main street, itself, is a spine that connects NRG (planned mixed use projects). Medical Center, Hermann Park, Rice University (best academic institution in Texas), Museum District (always growing), Mid Town, and Downtown with access to EaDO.

Allen Parkway/Kirby will be a another major road connecting downtown to Upper Kirby District to Rice Village to NRG with connections to Uptown.

The Secondary Major Streets are Westheimer, Richmond, Montrose & Shepherd which themselves are developing pockets of dense urbanity.

I'm not sure how that square footage compares to Manhattan, or similar dense areas, but that is the core I am focused on to support a Metro of 20+ million.
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  #133  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2023, 3:02 PM
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This is an extremely substandard rapid transit system for a metro of 7.5 million.
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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. (Bertrand Russell). Sweet Loretta fart thought she was a cleaner, but she was a frying pan. (John Lennon)
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  #134  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2023, 3:05 PM
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Houston doesn't have rapid transit. That's a trolley system, so functionally more like bus.

I don't think Houston will get anywhere near 20 million, but LA proves it's possible to grow enormous without rapid transit. LA was already huge before the first subway stop opened.
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  #135  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2023, 3:12 PM
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This is an extremely substandard rapid transit system for a metro of 7.5 million.
Look at my diagram. Since those lines opened, TOD developments have been built along those lines. The major issue discouraging transit use is the homeless problem issue in Houston which is a United States issue...not just a Houston issue which is a separate conversation. There are dense pockets developing and the connective tissue will follow.

Houston will never follow a NYC model...not does it have to. It will be a mix of many urban styles...it's what the market wants but there is definitely room for growth..triple the growth of now. the density numbers are held back by the low density areas outside of my 'blue' area which is the area I am focusing on as The City of Houston..that is where I am watching developments
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  #136  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2023, 3:24 PM
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Houston will choke on automobiles, just like LA did.
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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. (Bertrand Russell). Sweet Loretta fart thought she was a cleaner, but she was a frying pan. (John Lennon)
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  #137  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2023, 3:41 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is online now
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Originally Posted by edale View Post
Most people who have lawns also have flowers, bushes, trees...things that contribute to the ecosystem. I don't know why Ihearthed says there shouldn't be lawns in Ohio. It rains all the time there, almost no one has irrigation for their lawns. You might have to put a hose-connected sprinkler out for a week or so in the summer, but otherwise lawns there are supported by the natural precipitation that falls.
Where I grew up we had to water the yard at least once per week from early June through late August to keep it from going brown. Everyone also sprayed their lawns with toxic pesticides once per year. In addition to the waste of water and pesticides there is also the waste of energy to maintain them. Even back in the 90s in there were ozone action days several times a week in the Detroit area, when you were encouraged to not use lawn mowers before 6pm because of bad air quality.
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  #138  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2023, 3:56 PM
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Where I grew up we had to water the yard at least once per week from early June through late August to keep it from going brown. Everyone also sprayed their lawns with toxic pesticides once per year. In addition to the waste of water and pesticides there is also the waste of energy to maintain them. Even back in the 90s in there were ozone action days several times a week in the Detroit area, when you were encouraged to not use lawn mowers before 6pm because of bad air quality.
We never water the small lawn and parkway in front of our 3-flat.

If it goes brown, it goes brown. Who gives a shit?

Next time it rains it bounces right back to green.


We've never put any pesticides on it because that seems pretty stupid.


We mow it with a small little battery powered electric mower.


Our kids, and all the other kids on the street, use the small front yards and parkways as outdoor play space all the time. The front lawns are 100% used, but that's because our block, like a lot Chicago, has utterly tiny back "yards" (ours is just a small patio).
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Oct 27, 2023 at 4:46 PM.
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  #139  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2023, 4:19 PM
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Houston will choke on automobiles, just like LA did.
Possibly, but there is hope in the area I indicated where Infill is developing like this:

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  #140  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2023, 7:07 PM
Obadno Obadno is offline
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If it goes brown, it goes brown. Who gives a shit?

Next time it rains it bounces right back to green.
Some people take pride in their homes.
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