HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Alberta & British Columbia > Vancouver > Metro Vancouver & the Fraser Valley


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #5201  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2023, 10:30 PM
GMD GMD is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
On the third hand, since some demographics are more negatively affected by the cost of living, it stands to reason that building certain kinds of supply will be more helpful than others.

Burnaby gearing most of its development towards the people least affected by the housing crunch? That's going to be seen as UN-helpful, and understandably so.
I'm not really sure what you are saying, or how it corresponds to what I wrote.

Are you saying that building more condos increases prices (ie is UN-helpful)?

Are you saying that young people (who are most likely to buy or rent small condos) are the people least affected by the housing crunch (I would have thought elderly homeowners are the ones least affected by the housing crunch, so gearing supply to them would mean, what, building more bungalows on 6000 sq ft lots next to skytrain stations?).

Are you saying we should upzone single-elderly-couple-home neighbourhoods to allow for more missing middle housing (in which case I agree, especially in Burnaby, but the absence of this doesn't make building new condos a bad thing, in fact it this absence which makes new condos so profitable because it makes people desperate to buy whatever is available)?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5202  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2023, 12:36 AM
Migrant_Coconut's Avatar
Migrant_Coconut Migrant_Coconut is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Kitsilano/Fairview
Posts: 9,899
Quote:
Originally Posted by GMD View Post
- snip -
I'm saying that most Metro Vancouverites can't afford Burnaby's luxury condos. The current going rate for Gilmore Place is about $600-700k for a one bedroom. YMMV, but I don't know any young people who can afford a (let's say) $4,516+ mortgage payment; by the metro's own metrics, $54k spent on housing should mean you make at least $180k... in other words, that you're already upper or upper-middle class when you make the purchase.
And since not many people here make that much, I don't blame anybody for thinking that Gilmore is targeted toward overseas owners. Heck, it probably is.

Yes, that price will decrease over the next few decades - especially with enough new housing to encourage competition - until it's affordable to most locals. No, most of said locals can't wait that long. Many need $2k/month or less right now.

Renegotiating the Grand Bargain and upzoning more of Burnaby is indeed one solution, in large-enough numbers. Increasing the rate of below-market units is another (given their tower fetish, Burnaby would likely do great with MIRHPPs). Whatever the solution/s, the current City Council needs to end Corrigan's two-tier "f**k you, I got mine" and "take the money and run" approach to rezoning.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5203  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2023, 1:17 AM
Changing City's Avatar
Changing City Changing City is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 7,660
Quote:
Originally Posted by FarmerHaight View Post
because household size fell from 2.3 in 2001 to 2.1 in 2021[/URL] Vancouver needed to build an additional 78k dwellings over the past two decades. And Vancouver actually only added 56k.
I'm not quite sure what you were getting at, and we're in the Burnaby rather than a Vancouver thread, but the City of Vancouver added 79,367 more dwellings between 2001 and 2021, according to the links you provided. During that 20 years the population increased by 116,577.

For more direct relevance to this thread, in the same 20 years Burnaby added 30,834 dwellings, and 55,175 population.

The relationship between the number of homes added (or needed), and the population change isn't direct. There are all sorts of demographic factors in play. For example, families are (on average) having fewer children. Families with adult children are (finally) seeing them move out, and so the proportion of couple-familes without children has increased in those 20 years. As the 'boomer' wave ages, more of those previously 2-person households in 2001 become one-person in 2021, as the first partner dies (or they 'do a Meryl Streep', and separate after decades together).
__________________
Contemporary Vancouver development blog, https://changingcitybook.wordpress.com/ Then and now Vancouver blog https://changingvancouver.wordpress.com/

Last edited by Changing City; Oct 24, 2023 at 5:38 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5204  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2023, 2:55 AM
GMD GMD is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
I'm saying that most Metro Vancouverites can't afford Burnaby's luxury condos.
Well, obviously somebody can pay, since they wouldn't have built it without buyers. And if the people who are buying them don't want to live in them themselves, they can rent them out (and I favour empty homes taxes to encourage this), which again means someone has a place to live that wouldn't otherwise, and what difference does it make in this case who owns the unit or what the owners address is)?

This just seems like more of the same confused housing shortage thinking. 'Wow, new housing is expensive because we have a housing shortage, therefore we should stop building new housing - because it is so expensive!'

Imagine if there were a wheat crop failure, and bread became very expensive. Would we forbid farmers from planting extra wheat in the next crop because nobody can afford bread any more anyways?

The reality is, if there is an extra 1000 units occupied at a couple of new condo towers, that is 1,000 (units worth of) people housed, *who are now no longer competing for the remaining housing* - which makes the remaining housing cheaper than it would be, in a counter-factual world where those 1,000 units didn't exist.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5205  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2023, 3:13 AM
Migrant_Coconut's Avatar
Migrant_Coconut Migrant_Coconut is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Kitsilano/Fairview
Posts: 9,899
Quote:
Originally Posted by GMD View Post
- snip -
Straw man. Point out exactly where I said we shouldn’t add supply at all, and I’ll retract it.

To reiterate: more housing is fine; more housing targeted at people who need it the most is even better. Burnaby isn’t doing the second one. If anything, they’ve done the opposite.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5206  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2023, 4:23 AM
GMD GMD is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
Straw man. Point out exactly where I said we shouldn’t add supply at all, and I’ll retract it.

To reiterate: more housing is fine; more housing targeted at people who need it the most is even better. Burnaby isn’t doing the second one. If anything, they’ve done the opposite.
I think we are mostly in agreement (my first comment quoted you, but was meant in support of your post, not as an argument).

But filtering is real, any new housing supply will work its way towards benefitting those who most need it, even if they are not the purchasers of the units created and even if they do not rent those units, all that is required is that the units not be left empty.

A benefit of upzoning the single-elderly-couple-dwelling (SECD) zones (as opposed to new condo construction) is that many of those houses already get replaced with McMansions- with upzoning, that process could generate lots more units without requiring much more in the way of scarce construction resources. Also, the SECD zones cover many of the nicest, quiet, tree-lined streets away from traffic and close to schools that make ideal places to live, as opposed to building condo projects, say, bordering Highway 1, North Road and the CN mainline plus railyard, just to pick one example.

Public housing construction is good as well, but primarily because it creates secure rentals and adds to overall supply, not because there is some benefit of building low quality structures so that they can be directly occupied by poor people, as opposed to constantly adding new high end housing stock, and letting what used to be the best housing filter its way down the economic ladder.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5207  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2023, 6:18 AM
ecbin ecbin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by GMD View Post
A benefit of upzoning the single-elderly-couple-dwelling (SECD) zones (as opposed to new condo construction) is that many of those houses already get replaced with McMansions- with upzoning, that process could generate lots more units without requiring much more in the way of scarce construction resources. Also, the SECD zones cover many of the nicest, quiet, tree-lined streets away from traffic and close to schools that make ideal places to live, as opposed to building condo projects, say, bordering Highway 1, North Road and the CN mainline plus railyard, just to pick one example.
It's bananas in Burnaby. I live in the Garden Village area (north of Patterson) and it's littered with 10000sf+ lots that have a single living unit - these are all within a 15 min walk of Patterson. Even an EXTREMELY modest .8FSR could result in a great quadplex for families (and an in-law suite etc). Density is so low that they could go with no required parking and it'd be 50 years before parking became an issue.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5208  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2023, 3:47 PM
FarmerHaight's Avatar
FarmerHaight FarmerHaight is offline
Peddling to progress
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Vancouver's West End
Posts: 1,631
Quote:
Originally Posted by Changing City View Post
There are all sorts of demographic factors in play. For example, families are (on average) having fewer children. Families with adult children are (finally) seeing them move out, and so the proportion of couple-familes without children has increased in those 20 years. As the 'boomer' wave ages, more of those previously 2-person households in 2001 become one-person in 2021, as the first partner dies (or they 'do a Meryl Streep', and separate after decades together).
I was getting at exactly what you pointed out, but my approach was a little convoluted and I confused myself looking at several census years.

Essentially, I was saying that demand for housing is growing faster than we are building housing.
__________________
“Nothing compares to the simple pleasure of riding a bike” – John F Kennedy
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5209  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2023, 3:59 PM
FarmerHaight's Avatar
FarmerHaight FarmerHaight is offline
Peddling to progress
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Vancouver's West End
Posts: 1,631
Quote:
Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
To reiterate: more housing is fine; more housing targeted at people who need it the most is even better. Burnaby isn’t doing the second one. If anything, they’ve done the opposite.
Surely the government has a responsibility to help with housing its most vulnerable citizens, but the cost of living crisis is affecting more than those who qualify for below-market housing.

Quote:
The latest MNP Consumer Debt Index shows 51 per cent of Canadians are $200 or less away from not being able to complete their financial obligations, while the average amount of money left over after paying the bills has fallen to $674 this quarter.

I don't think Canada could ever build enough social housing for half of the population. And while Gilmore Place may not be affordable for the middle class, surely some upwardly mobile recently graduated tech workers will move out of their rock-bottom basement suites, or a happy couple who recently received promotions will move out of their wood framed bargain into those units, freeing up space for someone else in those lower cost buildings, and downward the trickle goes.

You may not have said you are against adding supply, but you did say:
Quote:
Burnaby gearing most of its development towards the people least affected by the housing crunch? That's going to be seen as UN-helpful, and understandably so.
And I don't think there is anything understandable about it, and I think that adding any supply (even luxury supply, so long as someone lives there) is a good thing.
__________________
“Nothing compares to the simple pleasure of riding a bike” – John F Kennedy
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5210  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2023, 7:30 PM
Migrant_Coconut's Avatar
Migrant_Coconut Migrant_Coconut is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Kitsilano/Fairview
Posts: 9,899
Quote:
Originally Posted by FarmerHaight View Post
Surely the government has a responsibility to help with housing its most vulnerable citizens, but the cost of living crisis is affecting more than those who qualify for below-market housing...

... I don't think Canada could ever build enough social housing for half of the population.
IMO the first one's more of an argument for raising the qualification ceiling. Right now, $6k/month across an entire household is "too rich" for BC Housing.

The second one is fair, though I'll point out that state housing =/= social housing. That's probably why Vancouver's doing stuff like MIRHPP where the cost of adding below-market to the building is placed on the developer in exchange for height limit waivers; Burnaby's already got the height part, and should maybe consider the below-market part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FarmerHaight View Post
And while Gilmore Place may not be affordable for the middle class, surely some upwardly mobile recently graduated tech workers will move out of their rock-bottom basement suites, or a happy couple who recently received promotions will move out of their wood framed bargain into those units, freeing up space for someone else in those lower cost buildings, and downward the trickle goes.
Not saying otherwise, only that the hermit crab shuffle - courtesy of BBC - is often too long a wait and too unreliable for the average metro household as opposed to purpose-built low income housing.

And if the foreign buyer argument is correct, there's nothing stopping a PRC speculator from taking the condo or the woodframe and either scalping or outright sitting on it, disrupting the shuffle altogether (hence the talk of rentals and subsidized units among the planners I've met; much harder to flip those). But IIRC we all agree something should be done about that.

Last edited by Migrant_Coconut; Oct 24, 2023 at 10:00 PM. Reason: Typo
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5211  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2023, 10:19 PM
jollyburger jollyburger is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 14,691
Keltic has a 2030 completion date on their website for that 4444/4488 Kingsway project

https://kelticdevelopment.com/projects/4488-kingsway/
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5212  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2023, 8:20 AM
madog222 madog222 is online now
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,803
Notable rezoning submissions from last council meeting:

Keltec's Revs Bowling site at 5502 Lougheed. Three towers at approximately 60, 55, and 50 stories. Tallest is condo plus affordable rental, the others are all strata. Total density is 9.6fsr.

Belford with the lots south of Silver, 6378, 6392 McKay & 6387, 6425. 46 storey strata tower with 6 storey rental. 8.3 fsr.
Belford also submitted a 28 storey tower further south at 6544 Silver.

Anthem's phase 2 of South Yards consisting of one tower and a public park.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5213  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2023, 9:58 PM
MistyMountain MistyMountain is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 72
Not sure if these have been posted yet but two new developments near Brentwood:

62 and 54 floors including 10 storey hotel by Millenium

https://vancouvermarket.ca/2023/10/2...rentwood-site/






61 storeys with 11 storey hotel by Amacon

https://vancouvermarket.ca/2023/10/2...rentwood-site/

Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5214  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2023, 11:56 PM
officedweller officedweller is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 41,031
The Gilmore White Spot lives! (so far).

Kinda nuts that this is the just the mid-block warehouse site (excludes Club 16 plaza).



Quote:
Originally Posted by MistyMountain View Post
62 and 54 floors including 10 storey hotel by Millenium

https://vancouvermarket.ca/2023/10/2...rentwood-site/

Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5215  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2023, 2:01 AM
Metro-One's Avatar
Metro-One Metro-One is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Japan
Posts: 17,804
Any links to more info / diagrams / elevations?
__________________
Bridging the Gap
Check out my Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/306346...h/29495547810/ and Youtube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCV0...lhxXFxuAey_q6Q
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5216  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2023, 2:14 AM
teriyaki teriyaki is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 580
Interesting that the Brentwood area will have 2 separate projects that have a hotel component in the podium, going forward at the same time.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5217  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2023, 3:58 AM
jollyburger jollyburger is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 14,691
Seems like it was first submitted last year?

Quote:
Brentwood Multiple family residential development (high density)
REZ #22-06 Millennium Properties Ltd 4141 Lougheed Hwy Permit construction of a high-density mixed-tenure residential development atop a commercial/retail podium and underground parking.
Not available yet Initial Report 2022.06.20
From the area plan:

Quote:
Although there is no maximum height limitation required by the zoning by-laws in this area, tower podiums for commercial uses are analysed to be below 45 metres (148 feet) in height. This is to reduce the shadow impact of these large podiums on the adjacent sites.
For residential towers, height and number of floors are limited by elevator travel time and the required number of elevators.
Staples site is owned by First Capital

https://fcr.ca/properties/british-co...ples-lougheed/

2019 rezoning request by First Capital

https://pub-burnaby.escribemeetings....cumentId=44102
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5218  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2023, 5:26 AM
madog222 madog222 is online now
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,803
Quote:
Originally Posted by teriyaki View Post
Interesting that the Brentwood area will have 2 separate projects that have a hotel component in the podium, going forward at the same time.
And in Metrotown Thind has applied to change the commercial office space in Highline to hotel use.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5219  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2023, 9:38 PM
vanman's Avatar
vanman vanman is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Vancouver BC
Posts: 6,438
Quote:
Originally Posted by teriyaki View Post
Interesting that the Brentwood area will have 2 separate projects that have a hotel component in the podium, going forward at the same time.
I was thinking the same thing.

As a tourist I definitely appreciate staying in locations that are in close proximity to rapid transit and walkable with nearby amenities even if that means not being in the centre of the city or close to any major attractions so I guess it makes sense. Metro Vancouver's town centres are actually pretty ideal locations for hotels for the same reasons they're great places to live.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5220  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2023, 1:41 AM
officedweller officedweller is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 41,031
Quote:
Originally Posted by teriyaki View Post
Interesting that the Brentwood area will have 2 separate projects that have a hotel component in the podium, going forward at the same time.
To me, the Amacon site by the rail tunnel entrance seems a bit out of the way for hotel.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Alberta & British Columbia > Vancouver > Metro Vancouver & the Fraser Valley
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 7:11 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.