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  #5181  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2023, 3:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Klazu View Post
Brentwood is turning quickly into a Hong Kong style vertical ghetto. While I like tall buildings, making 60 storeys the new norm is pretty ridiculous, especially with the tight tower spacing. Not a fan of it.
Lol
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  #5182  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2023, 4:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Klazu View Post
Brentwood is turning quickly into a Hong Kong style vertical ghetto. While I like tall buildings, making 60 storeys the new norm is pretty ridiculous, especially with the tight tower spacing. Not a fan of it.
Hong Kong is one of the wealthiest and most desirable cities in the world. The political situation may not be everyone's cup of tea (including me) but to call it a "ghetto" is ridiculous. Even if just the Chinese wanted to live in Hong Kong (and based on the number of foreign nationals working in the finance industry there, I would say that is not the case) that would amount to almost 20 percent of the world finding Hong Kong and its skyscrapers quite attractive.

I think we should remember that Vancouverism is not the norm around the world. Chicago, NYC, and Toronto all have fairly close tower spacing, especially compared to Vancouver's "tower on a podium" model. Some people may choose to live elsewhere, but I don't think there is anything cruel (which is a key trait of ghettos) about the way Burnaby is building skyscrapers.

If you do not want to live in these towers and don't want other people to live in them either (how very nanny-state of you!), then you should lobby Burnaby city council to allow mid-rise apartments across the city. That would provide plenty of units for people who would otherwise live in the "vertical ghetto" to move into. And if this is just a matter of your taste, maybe save your hyperbolic language for an issue that deserves it.
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  #5183  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2023, 10:55 PM
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How about twice as many 30 storey towers taking up twice the space in an endless tabletop? My solution is put up some 80-90 story towers here & there to spice up the skyline a bit
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  #5184  
Old Posted Oct 22, 2023, 7:42 AM
GMD GMD is offline
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Originally Posted by Klazu View Post
Brentwood is turning quickly into a Hong Kong style vertical ghetto. While I like tall buildings, making 60 storeys the new norm is pretty ridiculous, especially with the tight tower spacing. Not a fan of it.
Aesthetically, I don't like the tight tower spacing, as it tends to end up looking like one poorly designed tower from many angles in my opinion, but this is a fairly big site, so not sure how tight 3 towers will be on it.

In terms of height, I'm not sure 60 stories vs 30 stories really makes much difference, aesthetics wise, a tower is a tower. I worry a bit about the long term maintenance cost of the taller towers, but not really my problem, I guess.

It will be kind of sad to see the bowling alley go, but you always knew that once the lawsuits got settled that this site was getting developed.

In the end, more places to live next to a skytrain station is generally good news.
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  #5185  
Old Posted Oct 22, 2023, 4:12 PM
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Originally Posted by FarmerHaight View Post
Hong Kong is one of the wealthiest and most desirable cities in the world. The political situation may not be everyone's cup of tea (including me) but to call it a "ghetto" is ridiculous.
Lol. Hong Kong has become known for cage homes and crowded living conditions that are near favela level, just high up in the air. This is also coming to Metro Vancouver, case in point being the growing number of slum houses with 20 tenants and condos with partitioned living spaces. The comparison to Hong Kong is way more apt than you even realize and its not a flattering one.

Quality of living is deteriorating fast everywhere in Lower Mainland as Canada heads towards being a second world country.
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  #5186  
Old Posted Oct 22, 2023, 7:54 PM
kja384 kja384 is offline
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Originally Posted by Klazu View Post
Lol. Hong Kong has become known for cage homes and crowded living conditions that are near favela level, just high up in the air. This is also coming to Metro Vancouver, case in point being the growing number of slum houses with 20 tenants and condos with partitioned living spaces. The comparison to Hong Kong is way more apt than you even realize and its not a flattering one.

Quality of living is deteriorating fast everywhere in Lower Mainland as Canada heads towards being a second world country.
I don't really disagree with you. These condos are purchased by people who are used to far more expensive housing costs, it's nothing to them. The only way for everyone else to compete is more crowded living conditions and smaller units.

Every time these absurdly priced presales hit the market it really just feels like one large wealth transfer and new records being set.
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  #5187  
Old Posted Oct 22, 2023, 10:05 PM
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NetMapel NetMapel is offline
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Originally Posted by Klazu View Post
Ugh, I shouldn't have opened the DailyHive article where a couple of idiots in the comments are talking how Lougheed needs to be shrunk to just 1+1 lanes. Some people are just completely delusional, blithering idiots.

Anyways, I didn't notice it before before, but it's actually pretty cool that the rental podium allows passing through to the other side. We don't have a lot of such urban elements in this city.
I’m not too sure what 1+1 means. But I would support 2 lanes each side there around Brentwood area. The reason is because Lougheed Hwy leading into Brentwood and further westward to Boundary is already 2 lanes each way. They only have extra lanes right in the boundary of Brentwood for the archaic belief that more people need more lanes for cars. That is not how modern urban planning operate anymore due to better understanding of induced demand. Furthermore, Brentwood and around are building condos connecting directly to Lougheed Hwy which effectively turn it into a “stroad”. Heck, they even have road side parking by Concord Brentwood which is ridiculous if you went to treat Lougheed Hwy as an efficient road for people to go east/west.. So Lougheed Hwy already functionally work as 2x2. Let’s just be consistent and official about it and make it into something more of what it is turning into, a downtown street/boulevard. A place of high density with pedestrians, cyclists and other citizens enjoying the community. Lougheed Hwy is not a bypass highway to drive through Brentwood anymore. If you want to bypass Brentwood, use Hwy 1 or Hastings.

Last edited by NetMapel; Oct 22, 2023 at 10:53 PM.
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  #5188  
Old Posted Oct 22, 2023, 10:34 PM
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Seven lanes at Brentwood is definitely overkill.
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  #5189  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2023, 3:53 AM
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Quality of living is deteriorating fast everywhere in Lower Mainland as Canada heads towards being a second world country.
Canada is planning on aligning with the Eastern Bloc?

Just laugh and move on folks.
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  #5190  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2023, 6:55 AM
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Originally Posted by chowhou View Post
Canada is planning on aligning with the Eastern Bloc?
as much as you're technically correct, i think you know that's not the context that 1st, 2nd, 3rd world is used today. the cold war has been over awhile now.

lame technicalities like these are as they are; lame.

it reminds me of those trump lie counters. one of them always stood out to me. they called trump a liar when he said the trade deficit was 600 billion. the truth was like 580 billion.

while technically correct, it is a lame attempt to count another "win" (lie). what it really does is make most people roll their eyes because rounding up is reasonable. saying something is 6 dollars vs 5 dollars & 80 cents is fine. it ends up devaluing the entire list, just like using the technicality you did.


though you could probably make a case for Canada being overly friendly with the eastern block. thinking trudeu sr with regards to cuba, china. though thats a historical context and not applicable in this scenario.
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  #5191  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2023, 7:23 AM
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AFAIK the conventional post-Soviet definition of the "worlds" is "developed, developing, yet to develop."

Yet nitpicking aside, Klazu's still made a hot take. Is it the rising cost of living? Unemployment? The housing crisis? Lack of skilled labour, modern infrastructure or secondary/tertiary/quarternary sector growth? Nope, it's tall towers spaced a little closer together that's sending Vancouver into a downward spiral.
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  #5192  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2023, 3:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Klazu View Post
This is also coming to Metro Vancouver, case in point being the growing number of slum houses with 20 tenants and condos with partitioned living spaces.
The "slum houses" and "partitioned living spaces" are caused by sky-high housing costs, not narrow tower spacing. If you are worried about 20 people cramming into one home, maybe we should only build these shoebox apartments, because it's unlikely you could fit more than 10 people into one of them! /s

Go to any major city in the world (NYC, London, Paris, Hong Kong, Seoul, Tokyo) and you will find people living on top of each other. Some people find it a miserable experience (a 30 years old working professional might not like having a roommate) while some enjoy living with others (Vancouver has several unofficial frat and sorority houses. While you are in college, always having five buddies around to play a board game or some pickup soccer is actually nice!). Regardless, living in closer proximity to other people can be a feature or a bug of living in a desirable city, depending on your preferences. This is why some people from flyover states and provinces can't wait to graduate and move to the "big city", while others can't imagine not owning a single family home by their mid-20s.

Vancouver certainly needs to deal with unaffordable housing by adding to its housing supply, especially the secured rental supply. I don't think building towers close to each other is forcing anyone to live in conditions they don't want to. Heck, I think we should still be building SROs. Plenty of people are willing to make trade-offs, while some may need lower-quality housing to get on their feet. Only the people that self-select to live in Brentwood will do so. Others who want a more private tower may choose to live somewhere in the suburbs where "towers in the park(ing lot)" are still a viable option.

Case in point: my wife and I gave up a lot of "privacy" to live in the West End (we also gave up our parking space!). We moved from a Burnaby tower with generous tower spacing but a very sanitized cityscape, to an apartment where our living and bedroom open onto the street and anyone in a tower nearby can look down into our "backyard" (a dead-end alley). We live on an emergency response route (firetrucks come by at all hours of the night), drunken revelers from Robson yell outside our window most weekends, and don't get me started on the pedestrian traffic during the fireworks festival (actually, we love that lost one). But the limited size of our apartment means we checkout the many nearby parks on an almost daily basis, can walk to any restaurant west of Burrard in 15 minutes or less (and bike to anything west of Main and north of Broadway in 20 minutes or less), and can also both walk to our downtown jobs.

I'm not trying to convince you, Klazu, to live in the West End or in Gilmore Place. I don't think either would appeal to you. But please, don't try to tell me that the type of housing I enjoy living in (compact, walkable and not driveable) isn't humane and shouldn't be built.
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  #5193  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2023, 4:56 PM
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Vancouver housing affordable housing supply bullshit is a never ending problem. The new condos get bought up immediately by foreigners and the population only continues to grow which is unsustainable. The quality of life will eventually go way down. Maybe when the city become completely overcrowded people will then decide to leave or a foreign ownership ban. These are the only things that will help solve the affordability problem.... Hong Kong is not where Vancouver city planners should look for inspiration.
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  #5194  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2023, 5:37 PM
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The new condos get bought up immediately by foreigners
Whatever. I rented one of those condos owned by foreigners and it was an affordable place to live for me and my family. In fact, most of the people I know are renting from foreigners. As long as someone is living in these properties, or the absent owners are paying the EHT through their nose, I don't really care who owns them.
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  #5195  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2023, 6:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Redtruck View Post
Vancouver housing affordable housing supply bullshit is a never ending problem. The new condos get bought up immediately by foreigners and the population only continues to grow which is unsustainable. The quality of life will eventually go way down. Maybe when the city become completely overcrowded people will then decide to leave or a foreign ownership ban. These are the only things that will help solve the affordability problem.... Hong Kong is not where Vancouver city planners should look for inspiration.
Yea you're right on the dot. People keep talking about supply but what's the point if everything just gets immediately purchased? Every single presale has videos in only Chinese that get thousands of views and it's rare to find towers that aren't completely sold out within weeks/months.

It's not really foreign ownership that's an issue, more like undeclared foreign wealth and overseas income. When entire cities like Richmond have incomes that compare to the DTES I think there's an issue

Every single one of these new developments is just another wealth transfer for our new imported landlord class.
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  #5196  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2023, 7:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Redtruck View Post
Vancouver housing affordable housing supply bullshit is a never ending problem. The new condos get bought up immediately by foreigners and the population only continues to grow which is unsustainable. The quality of life will eventually go way down. Maybe when the city become completely overcrowded people will then decide to leave or a foreign ownership ban. These are the only things that will help solve the affordability problem.... Hong Kong is not where Vancouver city planners should look for inspiration.
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Originally Posted by kja384 View Post
Yea you're right on the dot. People keep talking about supply but what's the point if everything just gets immediately purchased? Every single presale has videos in only Chinese that get thousands of views and it's rare to find towers that aren't completely sold out within weeks/months.

It's not really foreign ownership that's an issue, more like undeclared foreign wealth and overseas income. When entire cities like Richmond have incomes that compare to the DTES I think there's an issue

Every single one of these new developments is just another wealth transfer for our new imported landlord class.
Let's see the stats on foreign ownership here. Otherwise everything said here is nothing but conjectures.

Write to your MP if you think foreigners are not taxed enough here, unless you think that democracy is no longer working.
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  #5197  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2023, 7:38 PM
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That's what below-market rentals are for; it's pretty hard to flip a unit that's frozen at $2k/month.

By all means, jack up the FBT/SVT/EHT/PTT... but after you get rid of all the scalpers, we're still going to have a supply issue. The CMHC says Vancouver needs half a million more homes to get affordability back.

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Originally Posted by Redtruck View Post
... Hong Kong is not where Vancouver city planners should look for inspiration.
Okay, then let's try Vienna, which is much more affordable than either of the above and yet is much more cramped than Brentwood is now. One way or another, suburbia's gotta go.
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  #5198  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2023, 8:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
That's what below-market rentals are for; it's pretty hard to flip a unit that's frozen at $2k/month.

By all means, jack up the FBT/SVT/EHT/PTT... but after you get rid of all the scalpers, we're still going to have a supply issue. The CMHC says Vancouver needs half a million more homes to get affordability back.
.
This thread is a good illustration of a common confusion in housing debates. What happens is that we are building housing but not building enough housing to meet demand.

So what people see is a) housing being built and b) the consequences of not building enough housing

From there, it is easy for people to confuse these two things and blame the construction of new housing for the consequences of not building enough housing. E.g. People blame new housing for causing prices to rise or for housing getting more crowded and units getting smaller.

Sometimes a thought experiment can help clear away the confusion. For example, imagine if the new development at the bowling alley by Holdom station wasn't going to have 1,000 units in it, but instead was going to have 500,000 units in it - enough to actually come close to meeting the underlying level of demand.

Do we think that, in filling up these 500,000 units, prices would rise, or that people would need to crowd 10 people in per unit? Or is it more likely that prices would have to fall to move that many units, and that units might get bigger as people could afford more space.

Or try another thought experiment. What if, instead of adding 1,000 units around Holdom station, we instead demolished 1,000 units around the station. After all, if new construction creates higher prices and more crowding, the opposite would have to be true - demolishing buildings would mean lower prices and more spacious accommodation for everyone. But if you did demolish 1,000 units and all those people then had to find alternate accommodation - I think you would find that they were bidding up neighbouring places, and crowding more people into existing units to pay the increased prices/rent.

Somehow, when we talk of demolishing units, the consequences are obvious and agreed by all. But when we do the opposite, then there is disagreement, with a number of people arguing that building new units would have the same consequences as demolishing existing units.

It is very strange, and it can be tempting to just assume bad faith on the part of nimbys who protest that building new units just makes prices higher and conditions more crowded and the city more unaffordable, but I think that it is mostly an honest confusion that comes from what I stated up-front. There is building going on, but not enough, so instead of things improving (prices coming down, people having more space to live in) things are instead just getting worse more slowly than they otherwise would (due to ongoing population increase trying to fit into the same housing stock), a counter-factual that can be hard for people to mentally process.

It doesn't help that, because the population of the country as a whole is currently increasing faster than our capacity to build new units, we end up with a game of hot potato, where population moves to any place with more reasonable prices (eg Alberta right now).

In the end, this is just a long-winded way of saying that the econ 101 basics of supply and demand apply to housing, just like they do to any other good like televisions or toasters: Increasing supply reduces prices (vs. what they otherwise would be)
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  #5199  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2023, 10:03 PM
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It doesn't help that, because the population of the country as a whole is currently increasing faster than our capacity to build new units, we end up with a game of hot potato, where population moves to any place with more reasonable prices (eg Alberta right now).
Not only are we not building housing faster than the population is growing, but the average household size been falling for several generations. Yes, there are anecdotes about people in their 30s working well-paying jobs yet still living with their parents, but in general more Canadians are living on their own or with one roommate (partner, friend, or otherwise) than they were decades ago.

In the 1950s, when Canada added 100k people we needed 25k homes, but now if we added that many people we would need 40k homes. And that effect is even more pronounced in cities like Vancouver. The Vancouver CMA has an average household size of 2.5, but the CoV has an average household size of 2.1. So while Vancouver grew from 546k in 2001 to 662k in 2021, because household size fell from 2.3 in 2001 to 2.1 in 2021 Vancouver needed to build an additional 78k dwellings over the past two decades. And Vancouver actually only added 56k.
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  #5200  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2023, 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by GMD View Post
- snip -
On the third hand, since some demographics are more negatively affected by the cost of living, it stands to reason that building certain kinds of supply will be more helpful than others.

Burnaby gearing most of its development towards the people least affected by the housing crunch? That's going to be seen as UN-helpful, and understandably so.
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