Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The jury is still out on that.

Plus... new measures to protect French! Incoming!

Government at work - when your measures aren't working, take more measures.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Government at work - when your measures aren't working, take more measures.

QFT

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

scandalous.

Aside from all of the other socio-political considerations, CBC and Radio-Canada are part of the same corporation under the same uppermost management.

But is it an internal silo or maybe even a chasm that exists within the Mother Corp?

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Government at work - when your measures aren't working, take more measures.

When whatever you are doing isn't working, then keep on doing it! If possible use even more passion and enthusiasm........

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

When whatever you are doing isn't working, then keep on doing it! If possible use even more passion and enthusiasm........

An remember to keep thinking you'll get a different result.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

CBC or Radio-Canada???

If CBC, this is simply cultural insensitivity. If Radio-Canada, then heads should roll.......

I think it is more contempt than insensitivity. In some circles in Canada, Québec's French is not "real" French, but merely a bastardization of "real" Parisian French or a "patois". Of course, what is implied by that belief is that Québec's French is not worth protecting and Québécois might as well speak English, like the rest of the world...

No, not everyone thinks like that, but someone would need to have its head in the sand for thinking that that belief isn't present or even widespread.

[le calmar]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Francophone communities outside Québec are increasingly becoming the last holdouts of the traditional colloquial French Canadian slang language known as joual.

Oh there is still plenty of joual left in Québec but you'll hear it more in its pure historical glory in Timmins ON and Gravelbourg SK.

A lot of classic joual terms are not known to my kids and their friends.

Even the French spoken in Eastern Ontario can be like this to some extent. But yeah Quebec French is in the process of “internationalizing”. thurmas may have heard some people speak some heavily-accented French on Radio-Canada, but it’s definitely going in the other direction. I see it all the time with younger folks (and my Quebec French accent is very moderate compared to a lot of people).

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Aside from all of the other socio-political considerations, CBC and Radio-Canada are part of the same corporation under the same uppermost management.

But is it an internal silo or maybe even a chasm that exists within the Mother Corp?

Whatever it is, this is such a dumb thing for the CBC to do.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by le calmar

Even the French spoken in Eastern Ontario can be like this to some extent. But yeah Quebec French is in the process of “internationalizing”. thurmas may have heard some people speak some heavily-accented French on Radio-Canada, but it’s definitely going in the other direction. I see it all the time with younger folks (and my Quebec French accent is very moderate compared to a lot of people).

I remember my wife (who is Franco-Ontarian from the North) saying to my kids and their friends: "Hé les amis, ça vous tente d'aller aux vues?"

Blank stares from both the Québécois French Canadian kids and the international francophonie kids.

("Vues" is joual for the movies. Immediately understood by all native francophone Canadians over 40. A lot of these terms have largely died out among younger generations in Quebec, and if they're still known they're only used when joking around.)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

I think it is more contempt than insensitivity. In some circles in Canada, Québec's French is not "real" French, but merely a bastardization of "real" Parisian French or a "patois". Of course, what is implied by that belief is that Québec's French is not worth protecting and Québécois might as well speak English, like the rest of the world...

No, not everyone thinks like that, but someone would need to have its head in the sand for thinking that that belief isn't present or even widespread.

... or that it had at least a little bit of a role in the decision made by CBC Podcasts.

[Kilgore Trout]

I've heard that opinion expressed enough times in person to know it's extremely prevalent. "Oh I want to learn French but, like, real French."

It takes a real lack of self-awareness for someone speaking North American English to dismiss Quebec French as some kind of inferior version of the language.

In the UK there has been a process of dialect acceptance. In the past, everyone had to learn RP if they wanted to get ahead in society, but now you can read the BBC news with your native regional accent, and TV shows make an effort to showcase regional diversity. English North America is still stuck in the era when linguistic bigotry is acceptable and there is pretty significant social pressure to discard any accent that is seen as aberrant. The pressure certainly isn't as intense as in France, but it's still there.

Long story short, the linguistic bigotry that still exists in English North America feeds into the perception that Canadian French is somehow abnormal.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

I've heard that opinion expressed enough times in person to know it's extremely prevalent. "Oh I want to learn French but, like, real French."

The Calgarian excuse for not making any attempt to learn French at all! I should know, as that was me at 18 (which I now regret immensely).

[Kilgore Trout]

I also think it's funny that somebody at CBC Podcasts thought that using a Quebec firm to dub the podcast would result in something completely incomprehensible to international audiences. It's a bit like assuming that an English Canadian doing a podcast would sound like a half-soused BC lumberjack.

Then again there are probably producers at the CBC that tell people to change their normal Canadian accents so their show will be more marketable in the US...

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by niwell

The Calgarian excuse for not making any attempt to learn French at all! I should know, as that was me at 18 (which I no regret immensely).

ah yes. Or the "what is the use of learning French when Chinese is much more useful?" which I heard a lot when I lived out in Western Canada. Spoken by people that I can predict, with 100% certainty, will never learn even a shred of Chinese.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

I also think it's funny that somebody at CBC Podcasts thought that using a Quebec firm to dub the podcast would result in something completely incomprehensible to international audiences. It's a bit like assuming that an English Canadian doing a podcast would sound like a half-soused BC lumberjack.

Interesting. When this was posted, I didn't even think about the translated podcasts being made available to the international francophone diaspora. I just thought they were anglophone podcasts being translated for the convenience of French speaking Quebec residents. Either way, the CBC should have hired a Quebec based firm to do the translation.

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

Then again there are probably producers at the CBC that tell people to change their normal Canadian accents so their show will be more marketable in the US...

At least back in the 50s & 60s, there was such a thing as "CBC English", just like "BBC English". Announcers and presenters had to have as neutral and bland accent as possible. This still persists today, but, perhaps not as rigidly enforced.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

I've heard that opinion expressed enough times in person to know it's extremely prevalent. "Oh I want to learn French but, like, real French."

It takes a real lack of self-awareness for someone speaking North American English to dismiss Quebec French as some kind of inferior version of the language.

In the UK there has been a process of dialect acceptance. In the past, everyone had to learn RP if they wanted to get ahead in society, but now you can read the BBC news with your native regional accent, and TV shows make an effort to showcase regional diversity. English North America is still stuck in the era when linguistic bigotry is acceptable and there is pretty significant social pressure to discard any accent that is seen as aberrant. The pressure certainly isn't as intense as in France, but it's still there.

Long story short, the linguistic bigotry that still exists in English North America feeds into the perception that Canadian French is somehow abnormal.

I'd argue there actually is a pretty high degree of diverse dialect and accent acceptance in the ROC today. It's just that pretty much the only exception to the rule is Canadian (Quebec) French.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

ah yes. Or the "what is the use of learning French when Chinese is much more useful?" which I heard a lot when I lived out in Western Canada. Spoken by people that I can predict, with 100% certainty, will never learn even a shred of Chinese.

Oh yeah that was the other one! I'm sure that's been replaced with something else now that China is no longer seen in the same light.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by niwell

Oh yeah that was the other one! I'm sure that's been replaced with something else now that China is no longer seen in the same light.

Spanish.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I remember my wife (who is Franco-Ontarian from the North) saying to my kids and their friends: "Hé les amis, ça vous tente d'aller aux vues?"

Blank stares from both the Québécois French Canadian kids and the international francophonie kids.

("Vues" is joual for the movies. Immediately understood by all native francophone Canadians over 40. A lot of these terms have largely died out among younger generations in Quebec, and if they're still known they're only used when joking around.)

This is natural and probably anglophone kids of the same age wouldn't know what going to the flicks means.

Quebec in Canada has strong dialects which is separate from its difference from European French. In English Canada we have lost most of our dialects but if you listen to old CBC radio programs you will hear rich regional accents as well. Now probably Newfoundland is the only place where what you speak at home is corrected by school and not used outside of your community.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by le calmar

Even the French spoken in Eastern Ontario can be like this to some extent. But yeah Quebec French is in the process of “internationalizing”. thurmas may have heard some people speak some heavily-accented French on Radio-Canada, but it’s definitely going in the other direction. I see it all the time with younger folks (and my Quebec French accent is very moderate compared to a lot of people).

Yea ..reminds me that my SO and some of our Quebecois friends was finding the accent of Celine on this season's OD Andalousie to be very jarring and rough to their ears, and they said she has a heavy NB Acadien accent. Younger Quebecois can turn on and off the Quebec accent at will, no different than Torontonians speaking in patois in casual settings. Once it's in a professional setting it's full on international-style French.