VIA Rail

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

Feel free to propose a “useful” service offering for Atlantic Canada, which would not increase VIA’s subsidy requirement or completely sacrifice the link to the Q-W Corridor with its maintenance centers (both are hard constraints imposed by Transport Canada). Oh yes, and all of that with a rail infrastructure which no longer serves population centers like Fredericton and does not support travel times (or reliability) which would be remotely competitive against the car, bus or plane.

Me and my former colleagues at VIA had to eventually accept defeat at this task, but (who knows?) maybe you have more skills, imagination or luck…

Safe to say that any VIA service increase would require additional subsidies. Pretty much all existing VIA service is currently subsidized to some degree so no one could realistically expect a new service to operate without any new funding. It should probably go without saying that if someone advocates for expanding a subsidized service like VIA they're also advocating for more funding for that service.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Safe to say that any VIA service increase would require additional subsidies. Pretty much all existing VIA service is currently subsidized to some degree so no one could realistically expect a new service to operate without any new funding. It should probably go without saying that if someone advocates for expanding a subsidized service like VIA they're also advocating for more funding for that service.

Agreed.

It all boils down to government will. Does the government really want to divert passenger traffic off of roadways and onto HFR (or at least expanded regional rail) or not?

The feds will have to 🞵🞵🞵🞵 or get off the pot on this issue. Right now, intercity public transportation in the Maritimes is next to useless:

- VIA is 3x weekly, and is nothing more than a tourist and railway enthusast service.
- There is essentially no regional air service interconnecting Maritime cities
- Maritime bus is decent, and offers us a better alternative than in many parts of (especially) western Canada, but, bus travel is uncomfortable and not necessarily convenient.

Car ownership in the Maritimes is almost mandatory. Is this what we want as we move further and further into the 21st century???

For efficiency of resource utilization, and in terms of greenhouse gas reduction, the government must look at rail. Unfortunately the feds have their collective heads stuck up their asses.....

[someone123]

Originally Posted by esquire

-Link to the Q-W corridor... so what does that actually provide latitude for? This sounds like it shuts the door on any regional service or basically any service that doesn't terminate in Montreal.

Here's the map. It does not even follow the shortest route to Montreal as the primary goal seems to be service around eastern Quebec and northern NB:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_(train)

You could probably run better rail service in the Maritimes with the annual subsidy spend on The Ocean (I think it was $20-30M or so?). If we say that Canada needs to ruthlessly pare back service to what is profitable then why do we have VIA or The Ocean at all? In reality the bar is set selectively based on politics and many of the constraints are political.

[hipster duck]

VIA is basically palliative care for passenger rail. It runs the same services that CN/CP did when they were about to give passenger rail up for dead two generations ago, often with the same equipment and [probably] the same organizational culture. It hasn't introduced any new lines or new services or new ways of running trains. It keeps on chugging along this way until the service is no longer sustainable and gets cut.

If jurisdictions want to improve passenger rail, they need to do it on their own. The only reason Southern Ontario and Quebec have anything more than the most threadbare service is because CN already offered intercity-type service in the Corridor before VIA took over. It's certainly not due to any favourtism of Ontario and Quebec at the expense of the rest of the country.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

If jurisdictions want to improve passenger rail, they need to do it on their own. The only reason Southern Ontario and Quebec have anything more than the most threadbare service is because CN already offered intercity-type service in the Corridor before VIA took over. It's certainly not due to any favourtism of Ontario and Quebec at the expense of the rest of the country.

Hard to argue with that. The writing seems to be on the wall. It's clear that VIA is unwilling or unable to lead on this. Mind you, I assume Ontario and Quebec have known this for years if not decades and have probably been acting accordingly.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by esquire

They can demand, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're going to get. As it stands, Kingston and Cornwall are the only places where every Toronto-Montreal train stops other than Toronto and Montreal themselves, and their suburbs (Dorval, Oshawa, etc.).

For instance, Brockville only gets two stops a day in each direction... the other trains blow right past.

You are way more optimistic about political interference than I am. I see no chance that all those Lakeshore communities won't be demanding stops en route and not only does that make potential service worse, it also reduces capacity if the tracks or corridors are shared and there are limited slots.

Either way, the entire fantasy about running along the Lakeshore is moot unless CN or CP are willing to play ball and sell their tracks to the government. There's no evidence of that. So I don't get the insistence that this is the better way, while regularly ignoring this detail.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by esquire

Hard to argue with that. The writing seems to be on the wall. It's clear that VIA is unwilling or unable to lead on this. Mind you, I assume Ontario and Quebec have known this for years if not decades and have probably been acting accordingly.

I don't get this argument. How exactly are Ontario and Quebec acting? They really haven't done much beyond suburban rail.

[someone123]

I agree that regions should build their own passenger rail if they want it, and the palliative care for rail idea fits in with the point that many of the routes don't suit present-day needs. It's harder for me to get on board with the idea that there's no favouritism when the routing and history (e.g. circa 1990's Calgary cuts or planned 2026 Gaspé reopening) is what it is, although at this point the whole system is so limited it doesn't make much difference.

The main point is that VIA's one vestigial route in the Maritimes isn't anywhere near what the top priority of service for people in the region would be, and so I think it's wrong to argue that passenger rail is hopeless or couldn't be improved just because VIA is heavily subsidized. Then again this also probably doesn't matter much as it's mostly out-of-region opinions on regional stuff. A lot of projects in Canada depend on priorities of the actors in a province or municipality that you can't see by looking at Google Maps and population numbers. In the Maritimes, CN is more of a limiting factor on passenger rail than demand or funding.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I don't get this argument. How exactly are Ontario and Quebec acting? They really haven't done much beyond suburban rail.

I'm willing to bet that there are diligent bureaucrats in Montreal, Quebec and Toronto who have drawn up excellent plans for a provincially-backed HSR system between those two provinces, but are only missing the funding.

Given provincial experience with extensive suburban rail networks, VIA has effectively become a middleman that can be cut out, or at least minimized.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

You are way more optimistic about political interference than I am. I see no chance that all those Lakeshore communities won't be demanding stops en route and not only does that make potential service worse, it also reduces capacity if the tracks or corridors are shared and there are limited slots.

Either way, the entire fantasy about running along the Lakeshore is moot unless CN or CP are willing to play ball and sell their tracks to the government. There's no evidence of that. So I don't get the insistence that this is the better way, while regularly ignoring this detail.

These are publicly traded companies. They have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to maximize profit. They have a price. I don’t know what it is, but I think the problem is that nobody from the federal government has bothered to ask.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by acottawa

These are publicly traded companies. They have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to maximize profit. They have a price. I don’t know what it is, but I think the problem is that nobody from the federal government has bothered to ask.

In Halifax there was a proposal to run commuter rail along the CN route and there would have been funding. But CN insisted on in camera meetings and so unfortunately there's no record of how reasonable they or the municipality were, and there could be no real public debate about what kind of price people would accept.

This route they wanted to use was of course built at taxpayer expense and I guess it was publicly owned or controlled for many decades. It has been partly dismantled by CN and physically sold off (twinned portions of rail reduced to single track). It's a bit weird that it's too busy to share but also not busy enough for double track.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by someone123

The main point is that VIA's one vestigial route in the Maritimes isn't anywhere near what the top priority of service for people in the region would be, and so I think it's wrong to argue that passenger rail is hopeless or couldn't be improved just because VIA is heavily subsidized.

Well said. The existing Western Canada and Atlantic Canada passenger rail networks are basically a Weekend at Bernie's scenario, where Bernie is the embodiment of Canadian intercity transportation patterns except he died in 1938. So we have this situation where nearly a century later, we still have long distance trains as though people in Toronto who need to get to Vancouver hop on a train and ride it for three days... but there's no regional service relevant to today's needs.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by someone123

In Halifax there was a proposal to run commuter rail along the CN route and there would have been funding. But CN insisted on in camera meetings and so unfortunately there's no record of how reasonable they or the municipality were.

This route they wanted to use was of course built at taxpayer expense and I guess it was publicly owned or controlled for many decades. It has been partly dismantled by CN and physically sold off (twinned portions of rail reduced to single track). It's a bit weird that it's too busy to share but also not busy enough for double track.

But what was the government offering? For most of these projects the railways are expected to give up land for nothing or maybe cost. We don’t expect any other business to operate that way.

When CN was privatized the easily could have kept the track and ROW and just sold the business, but that would have yielded less money.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by esquire

Well said. The existing Western Canada and Atlantic Canada passenger rail networks are basically a Weekend at Bernie's scenario, where Bernie is the embodiment of Canadian intercity transportation patterns except he died in 1938. So we have this situation where nearly a century later, we still have long distance trains as though people in Toronto who need to get to Vancouver hop on a train and ride it for three days... but there's no regional service relevant to today's needs.

They are trying to do too many things with the same train (tourist service for foreigners, remote service for communities with no road access) but it isn’t really clear where these viable regional routes are. The proposals all require people to to choose a train when driving (or a bus) is much faster and much cheaper or they require massive infrastructure investments to make the train as fast as driving and a massive subsidy to make it cheaper.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by acottawa

But what was the government offering? For most of these projects the railways are expected to give up land for nothing or maybe cost. We don’t expect any other business to operate that way.

Yes. That was part of my point with the in camera comment. It could either be CN or the municipality or both being unreasonable (for example councillors wanting free use of CN track). Because there's no public discussion with those details, it's impossible to know and hard to apply any kind of political pressure.

The municipality ended up going down the ferry route instead and once they said they were doing a ferry they also decided to do an electric ferry so the budget is much higher than anticipated. I don't think it's a bad project, but I wonder if they budgeted anything similar for what might have been a better commuter rail proposal. No way to know.

Another side point is that the various levels of government sometimes invest money in improving these rail corridors, but there isn't much talk of leveraging capital investment like that in exchange for allowing some passengers rail. There is a project underway to allow for easier short-range shipment of containers via rail that are currently put on trucks. I would not be surprised if private CN sometimes gets "free" capital investment from the government, a counterpoint to public operators sometimes wanting free track time.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

If jurisdictions want to improve passenger rail, they need to do it on their own. The only reason Southern Ontario and Quebec have anything more than the most threadbare service is because CN already offered intercity-type service in the Corridor before VIA took over. It's certainly not due to any favourtism of Ontario and Quebec at the expense of the rest of the country.

Not sure I understand the logic there. If the idea is that lobbying for more/better VIA (or other federally administered service) is pointless because VIA hasn't improved/expanded service before, the same thing can be said about other jurisdictions. In most regions no subnational jurisdiction has done so in recent history either. But regardless, if the only things that can happen on the federal level are things that are already happening or have a history of happening, then there wouldn't be any point in having federal politics. Everything would just continue perpetually on their established trajectories and nothing could change so there'd be no point.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by acottawa

These are publicly traded companies. They have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to maximize profit. They have a price. I don’t know what it is, but I think the problem is that nobody from the federal government has bothered to ask.

Has anyone looked at to using the northern Peterborough-Hwy7 corridor for a brand new freight railway for CN, and then have the existing Lakeshore line transferred to the government in exchange?

I feel like CN would like a brand new railway with shorter mileage.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

You are way more optimistic about political interference than I am. I see no chance that all those Lakeshore communities won't be demanding stops en route and not only does that make potential service worse, it also reduces capacity if the tracks or corridors are shared and there are limited slots.

Either way, the entire fantasy about running along the Lakeshore is moot unless CN or CP are willing to play ball and sell their tracks to the government. There's no evidence of that. So I don't get the insistence that this is the better way, while regularly ignoring this detail.

Most proposals for Lakeshore HSR that I've heard involve adding new tracks on the current a alignment rather than buying the existing tracks. If new tracks were built I doubt there would be any capacity issues anytime soon giving that the trains could be pretty long. But of course there doesn't mean they couldn't still interfere.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by someone123

Then again this also probably doesn't matter much as it's mostly out-of-region opinions on regional stuff. A lot of projects in Canada depend on priorities of the actors in a province or municipality that you can't see by looking at Google Maps and population numbers. In the Maritimes, CN is more of a limiting factor on passenger rail than demand or funding.

This makes it sound like I made an ill-informed "come from away" comment. My point is simply that pursuing new passenger rail services through VIA rail is a dead end, because VIA is not set up to do anything other than wind down the carcass of a passenger rail system it inherited in the 1970s.

If there is local interest in passenger rail, then set up a local agency and then meet with CN or CP directly. They're known to be intransigent, but they're not completely unforgiving.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by esquire

I'm willing to bet that there are diligent bureaucrats in Montreal, Quebec and Toronto who have drawn up excellent plans for a provincially-backed HSR system between those two provinces, but are only missing the funding.

Given provincial experience with extensive suburban rail networks, VIA has effectively become a middleman that can be cut out, or at least minimized.

Given how Wynne's HSR napkin plan played out, I would confidently bet against this. Look how long it's taken Metrolinx to get to a marginal level of competence with suburban rail. I really doubt they have anything but a napkin diagram of HSR in a file cabinet. Even those past studies weren't anywhere close to the level of detail that VIA and the CIB have commissioned for HFR. I don't think there's ever been a Corridor Intercity rail study that reached the point of detailed technical investigation, let alone went to RFP as we might see with HFR soon.

Originally Posted by acottawa

These are publicly traded companies. They have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to maximize profit. They have a price. I don’t know what it is, but I think the problem is that nobody from the federal government has bothered to ask.

To be fair we don't know whether there were such talks because nobody is under any duty to disclose such until there's a real firm offer. Heck, they can even jump into the current HFR program and bid such proposals. They aren't doing that.

But beyond that, I go back to what is the point. Lakeshore is an inferior routing in many ways. It compels a split between Ottawa and Montreal traffic. It requires vastly more grade separation. And even if by some miracle CN or CP would consider selling their lines, the likelihood of them imposing restrictions (for example on OCS or time sharing) is very high. And that's aside from likely political interference on scheduling. The focus on Lakeshore always strikes me as fixation well beyond merit.

Ultimately, history speaks to the problem here. Every single proposal that speaks of proceeding on Lakeshore has died. At what point do Lakeshore routing advocates admit defeat and move on?

HFR sure as hell isn't perfect. But it's closer to getting a shovel in the ground than literally any other Intercity rail effort in Canada in the last possibly half century. There's no point letting perfect be the enemy of good here.