VIA Rail

[Truenorth00]

Swimmer doesn't seem to understand the difference between VIA and the government. Nor does he understand the government's motivations. What government has had expanded long distance rail service in their platform? There hasn't been one. So all they'll do is replace the existing fleet. With some added efficiencies.

[acottawa]

Costs and benefits more generally were not usually in the analytical mix.

[hipster duck]

Paige Saunders made a video for the CBC on the HFR proposal and the duel between Siemens and Alstom that's surprisingly well researched. He also features some commentary from Reece Martin. The video has a fairly respectable 65k views.

I'm lightly in disagreement with the final takeaway, which is that we should really be building HSR and not use the Peterborough alignment, instead using the existing Lakeshore routing. I have problems with the Peterborough alignment and it was much more of a selling point when trains weren't even expected to travel at 200 km/h, much less 300, but proposing true HSR on the existing CN-owned Lakeshore alignment is a non-starter, and most likely more of a nightmare to plan and construct than blasting through the remote Canadian shield 70 km to the north.

• Video Link

[Nouvellecosse]

I'd certainly rather have full HSR but after decades of studies and successive governments with no apparently progress I feel like it isn't in the cards. Would love to be proven wrong, as long as whatever is built gets underway quickly. As it stands, the idea of rehashing that same old debate yet again just makes me tired.

[acottawa]

The only reason the Peterborough route was proposed is because Via convinced people there was a viable, unused route that could be upgraded for a few billion.

This was obviously never true, so there is no particular reason a city of 83k should be dictating the routing of a proposal in the tens of billions.

[Urban_Sky]

When we talk about the Havelock Sub, we need to distinguish between the segments East and West of Tweed (or better: Bonarlaw). On the Eastern half, the alignment is very curvy and the Canadian Shield makes realignments very expensive. However, on the Western half, the alignment has a lot less curves and large parts could be upgraded to 160 mph (the maximum design speed for corridors with freight operations, according to the FRA) and is far superior to any Laleshore alignment when it comes to approaching the core of the GTHA, as it only encounters residential areas just before Agincourt.

East of Belleville, the Lakeshore alignment is superior and allows to connect with the Local Lakeshore services at Kingston, but a link from Bonarlaw to the Lakeshore Corridor would barely be longer than 30 km. I‘m honestly suprised that the Ecotrain Study didn‘t even mention (if I recall correctly) the Havelock Sub as a potential ROW which could be partly followed by HSR…

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by acottawa

The only reason the Peterborough route was proposed is because Via convinced people there was a viable, unused route that could be upgraded for a few billion.

This was obviously never true, so there is no particular reason a city of 83k should be dictating the routing of a proposal in the tens of billions.

That was not the main reason. The main reason was to give VIA full control over the line so it didn't have to cede priority to freight trains as is the case with the Lakeshore route. Also, it provided a more direct route to Ottawa so that the Ottawa diversion would allow Montreal service to be viable without building a second line. When we follow Lakeshore, the diversion to Ottawa becomes bigger making the Toronto-Montreal travel time too long.

[Truenorth00]

All these videos routinely act like the feds can just snap up CN or CP mainline or force HSR on them. There is zero chance any federal government would impose this on companies that are so vital to the economy. I wish railfans would just get over this reality and move on.

VIA needs its own corridor. And the government needs to spend the money to get it done once and for all. Havelock isn't ideal. But it has some huge advantages for building a line between Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal. It's shorter and more direct to Ottawa. And it has far fewer potential stops and crossings en route. This definitely is an advantage for developers.

Part of the cost escalation alluded to, was also pointed out by man on the inside, Urban Sky. Johannes has regularly pointed out that it's Montreal-Quebec City that had a poor business case. Paige mentioned this. But then jumped back to talking about how bad Havelock was. That's just fixation again on the railfan fantasy of seizing assets.

Lastly, I'll add that railfans like Paige Saunders regularly focus on Toronto-Montreal so much, they ignore Toronto-Ottawa. But the latter has as much ridership as the former. It's frustrating how much they ignore Ottawa and focus exclusively on Toronto-Montreal travel times. Thankfully, the developers aren't this blind. 4 hrs Toronto-Montreal is fine, if that's run through Ottawa.

[craner]

VIA Rail station in Winnipeg to undergo $25M+ renovation

http://VIA Rail station in Winnipeg to undergo $25M+ renovation - Construction Canada https://www.constructioncanada.net/via-rails-train-station-in-winnipeg-to-undergo-25m-renovation/?qnewsletter=20230830&en_click=1&utm_campaign=2023-08-30&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&utm_content=news

[Djeffery]

VIA has confirmed the return of the early morning London-Toronto train and the commuter friendly afternoon return to London, effective Oct 24.

Train 82 departs London at 625am, arriving Toronto at 835am, daily except Suunday.

Train 83 departs Toronto at 415pm, arriving London at 627pm, daily except Saturday.

This comes a couple weeks after GO will run it's last rarely used 4 hour London-Kitchener-Toronto train.

This will bring London back up to 6 daily (5 on Sundays) trips to Toronto, 5 through the faster Brantford route, and 1 through Kitchener.

[MonctonRad]

Nice. I wish we had reliability and frequency like this in the Maritimes. All we have is a 3x weekly milk run that is completely irrelevant to intra-regional customers.

It's almost as if VIA wants the service to die............

[Truenorth00]

Don't blame VIA. Blame the federal and provincial governments that don't want to fund better services. In sure VIA would run a lot more services everywhere of given the funding.

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Don't blame VIA. Blame the federal and provincial governments that don't want to fund better services. In sure VIA would run a lot more services everywhere of given the funding.

Indeed, VIA looked into a lot of non-Corridor initiatives, like running daily intercity services between Halifax, Moncton and Campbellton or Saint John or extending the Sudbury-White River train to Toronto, but it’s of course imposssible to improve services as long as they are not allowed by their shareholder to let these commercial initiatives increase their subsidy requirements…

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Don't blame VIA. Blame the federal and provincial governments that don't want to fund better services. In sure VIA would run a lot more services everywhere of given the funding.

It's not just the funding level, it's also the allocation. The Ocean gets a big subsidy but there's little focus on providing useful service to the core part of the Maritimes where the bulk of the population lives. Wikipedia says Gaspé will be getting its own separate branch service restored in 2026 and that portion of railroad is undergoing $872M of improvements.

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by someone123

It's not just the funding level, it's also the allocation. The Ocean gets a big subsidy but there's little focus on providing useful service to the core part of the Maritimes where the bulk of the population lives. Wikipedia says Gaspé will be getting its own separate branch service restored in 2026 and that portion of railroad is undergoing $872M of improvements.

Feel free to propose a “useful” service offering for Atlantic Canada, which would not increase VIA’s subsidy requirement or completely sacrifice the link to the Q-W Corridor with its maintenance centers (both are hard constraints imposed by Transport Canada). Oh yes, and all of that with a rail infrastructure which no longer serves population centers like Fredericton and does not support travel times (or reliability) which would be remotely competitive against the car, bus or plane.

Me and my former colleagues at VIA had to eventually accept defeat at this task, but (who knows?) maybe you have more skills, imagination or luck…

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by acottawa

The only reason the Peterborough route was proposed is because Via convinced people there was a viable, unused route that could be upgraded for a few billion.

This was obviously never true, so there is no particular reason a city of 83k should be dictating the routing of a proposal in the tens of billions.

I see it the other way. The northern route avoids multiple cities of less than 83k insisting on stations and trains veering towards their centres. Ottawa to Toronto with one or two stops is ideal for HSR. As is an entirely new route.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

Feel free to propose a “useful” service offering for Atlantic Canada, which would not increase VIA’s subsidy requirement or completely sacrifice the link to the Q-W Corridor with its maintenance centers (both are hard constraints imposed by Transport Canada). Oh yes, and all of that with a rail infrastructure which no longer serves population centers like Fredericton and does not support travel times (or reliability) which would be remotely competitive against the car, bus or plane.

Me and my former colleagues at VIA had to eventually accept defeat at this task, but (who knows?) maybe you have more skills, imagination or luck…

There is a lot to unpack here.

-No increased subsidy. So essentially requiring any new service to operate at a break-even level. I assume the provinces are unwilling or unable to cover the funding gap that would likely exist?

-Link to the Q-W corridor... so what does that actually provide latitude for? This sounds like it shuts the door on any regional service or basically any service that doesn't terminate in Montreal.

-Inadequate rail infrastructure. So what does that mean in terms of travel times? I assume the Halifax-Moncton segment is main line quality capable of supporting reasonably high operating speeds. So is the issue with everything else? Not much can be done there, if the existing rails are fine then maybe one can build a case for introducing passenger rail service... that's a lot tougher to do if it's a branch line with a 35 mph speed limit requiring hundreds of millions of dollars, if not more, in capital upgrades.

(I know you obviously know this Urban Sky, but I think there is a tendency to look at rail lines as being all the same because they look more or less alike, when in reality you can have large urban areas connected by the equivalent of an eight lane high speed superhighway, while a rural branch line is the equivalent of a narrow gravel road with speeds which reflect that.)

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I see it the other way. The northern route avoids multiple cities of less than 83k insisting on stations and trains veering towards their centres. Ottawa to Toronto with one or two stops is ideal for HSR. As is an entirely new route.

This is where I land too. Using the Lakeshore Corridor would be expensive (lots more grade separation required) and disastrous because every hamlet will demand an HSR stop.

Also, Peterborough is way more than 83k. CMA is ~130k.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

This is where I land too. Using the Lakeshore Corridor would be expensive (lots more grade separation required) and disastrous because every hamlet will demand an HSR stop.

They can demand, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're going to get. As it stands, Kingston and Cornwall are the only places where every Toronto-Montreal train stops other than Toronto and Montreal themselves, and their suburbs (Dorval, Oshawa, etc.).

For instance, Brockville only gets two stops a day in each direction... the other trains blow right past.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by esquire

They can demand, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're going to get. As it stands, Kingston and Cornwall are the only places where every Toronto-Montreal train stops other than Toronto and Montreal themselves, and their suburbs (Dorval, Oshawa, etc.).

For instance, Brockville only gets two stops a day in each direction... the other trains blow right past.

Even if HSR didn't stop at those small intermediate centres, HSR could still offer them improved service depending on how frequent the HSR trips are. Since HSR would almost certainly require dedicated passenger tracks, the new tracks could have both express and local service similar to Amtrak NEC services with both acela express and local. This would work well if the express ran no more than say, hourly (which is still very frequent compared to now). Then the local could also operate hourly with greater reliability and higher average speeds due to fewer delays from freight. The local could have a max cruising speed of say, 200km/h while the express could be 250km/h or more.