Winnipeg | Downtown | Portage Place | Redevelopment | U/C

[WinCitySparky]

Cheswick out here keepin us honest today!! Glad someone around here is grounded, it’s sure not the electrician today lol

[thebasketballgeek]

Originally Posted by cheswick

1. Clinique de médecine des toxicomanies 264, boul. René-Lévesque Est
2. New Life Counselling - Addictions Treatment Centre 4211 Yonge St.
3. Addiction Therapy: Yale Medical Centre, 1280 Granville St
4. "A former hotel in downtown Vancouver is now offering supportive housing amid the province’s overdose crisis. The former Howard Johnson in the 1100-block of Granville Street features a safe medication dispensing machine in the lobby. It scans a registered user’s hand and then dispenses a safe dose of hydromorphone, a medicinal alternative to heroin." Source: https://globalnews.ca/news/7375089/vancouver-howard-johnson-supportive-housing/

I stand corrected thank you for the info. I’ve been a bit sour on peg lately, but despite my concerns I do hope the project is successful and it helps the DT. I’m most excited about them reopening Edmonton Street because they can do some interesting things to connect Portage and Ellice. Especially if that AT bridge ever gets built connecting OV to DT then there’s a nice little N/S connection from River to Cumberland.

[dmacc]

Originally Posted by cheswick

1. Clinique de médecine des toxicomanies 264, boul. René-Lévesque Est
2. New Life Counselling - Addictions Treatment Centre 4211 Yonge St.
3. Addiction Therapy: Yale Medical Centre, 1280 Granville St
4. "A former hotel in downtown Vancouver is now offering supportive housing amid the province’s overdose crisis. The former Howard Johnson in the 1100-block of Granville Street features a safe medication dispensing machine in the lobby. It scans a registered user’s hand and then dispenses a safe dose of hydromorphone, a medicinal alternative to heroin." Source: https://globalnews.ca/news/7375089/vancouver-howard-johnson-supportive-housing/

What is a safe dose of Hydromorphone? Hydromorphone is an addictive substance similar to other opioids. Though likely less harmful or addictive than herion, giving it out to addicts doesn't feel like a solution.

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

I stand corrected thank you for the info. I’ve been a bit sour on peg lately, but despite my concerns I do hope the project is successful and it helps the DT. I’m most excited about them reopening Edmonton Street because they can do some interesting things to connect Portage and Ellice. Especially if that AT bridge ever gets built connecting OV to DT then there’s a nice little N/S connection from River to Cumberland.

No he didn't correct you. LOL Those places atleast in MTL and Toronto are nothing like portage place. Yes they are downtown but not smack dab in the middle like Portage place is . One of those places he mentioned is not even in Downtown toronto, it is in North York.

Cheswick out here keepin us honest today!! Glad someone around here is grounded, it’s sure not the electrician today lo

He chose terrible examples.

[Atrial78]

Originally Posted by Johnny199r

Again, a health facility downtown will do nothing to attract young professionals to stay downtown or surrounding areas.

I clearly said many young professionals choose to live in nearby neighborhoods (ie. Osborne, Exchange, West Broadway, St. B). Many young workers at HSC do choose these neighborhoods given their amenities and proximity to HSC, rather than being out in the suburbs. I'm not sure why you think this isn't feasible.

Originally Posted by Luisito

I am not against these programs. I understand medical services for addicts are needed. I am questioning if this is really the right location do a social experiment like this and I think my question is legitimate. How do we know that this 24 hour drop in centre and the walk in clinic will not just increase the number of homeless and addicts in the area?

I believe a lack of development, investment, and services in downtown will actually increase the number of homeless and addicts. An extended-hours clinic benefits everyone living downtown and the surrounding area. Vancouver has a similar clinic (City Centre Urgent Primary Care Centre) and it appears to be well liked. Regarding the RAAM (Rapid Access to Addictions Medicine) Clinic. There are multiple throughout the province including 3 in Winnipeg. The best solution is likely to have these resources spread throughout the city; a location downtown as part of a large healthcare facility is reasonable. Taking Vancouver as an example, there is a similar Rapid Access Addiction Clinic at St. Paul's hospital downtown.

Originally Posted by esquire

Maybe you have been here so long that you are inured to it, but just ask a newcomer what they make of downtown Winnipeg and you will find out how it looks to a fresh set of eyes.

I'm a newcomer to Winnipeg after living in various Canadian and US cities. Maybe I'm not jaded yet, but Winnipeg is actually better kept than many US cities. Downtown is clearly struggling, but from my eyes it looks like it needs a vision and investment.

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by Atrial78

I believe a lack of development, investment, and services in downtown will actually increase the number of homeless and addicts. An extended-hours clinic benefits everyone living downtown and the surrounding area. Vancouver has a similar clinic (City Centre Urgent Primary Care Centre) and it appears to be well liked. Regarding the RAAM (Rapid Access to Addictions Medicine) Clinic. There are multiple throughout the province including 3 in Winnipeg. The best solution is likely to have these resources spread throughout the city; a location downtown as part of a large healthcare facility is reasonable. Taking Vancouver as an example, there is a similar Rapid Access Addiction Clinic at St. Paul's hospital downtown.

.

There is already a problem with addictions and homelessness that has hurt downtown. I don't think it's fair to ask people to come or invest in downtown but provide no reassurance for improved safety. Look at what has happened with the public library, look at our bus shelters, look at what happened with portage place itself. How has the RAAM worked out in point douglas? Is there something solid you can point to that having that centre there in PD has improved the area? Becuase that is what your telling us, that this wil actually improve the area around portage place. I m not against having something like this downtown somewhere. I am just not convinced that this centrally located piece of real estate is the best place for this.

[Atrial78]

Originally Posted by Luisito

There is already a problem with addictions and homelessness that has hurt downtown. I don't think it's fair to ask people to come or invest in downtown but provide no reassurance for improved safety. Look at what has happened with the public library. Look at our bus shelters, Look at what happened with portage place itself. How has the RAAM worked out in point douglas? Is there something solid you can point to that having that centre there in PD has improved the area? Becuase that is what your telling us, that this wil actually improve the area around portage place. I m not against having something like this downtown somewhere. I am just not convinced that this centrally located piece of real estate is the best place for this.

First of all, you are condemning a complete overhaul of Portage Place that includes a large healthcare facility, affordable housing, a grocery, green space, cultural services, street changes, etc. all because it will have an addictions clinic. What is currently there is not working.

Second, you are implying that addiction and homelessness will recede or somehow not worsen in downtown if we avoid placing an addiction clinic in a medical facility. That is unlikely to be the case. I have already given you an example of an addiction clinic downtown in Vancouver. Go look up institutions like NY Presbyterian, Mount Sinai, or any of the NYC HHC hospitals, etc. in Manhattan that all have addiction clinics.

Third, RAAM is trying to help people fight drug addiction. It's not easy, but I haven't seen evidence of the RAAM clinic being responsible for increased crime in these areas. Have you?

Fourth, from a CBC article I learned that 26.8% of Winnipeg's budget was spent on the police force in 2022. In Vancouver this is 20%, Toronto 7.4%, Calgary 17.5%, Ottawa 9.3%. How are you proposing we lower crime?

Finally, what is your alternative? Complaining and not offering solutions is not helpful.

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by Atrial78

First of all, you are condemning a complete overhaul of Portage Place that includes a large healthcare facility, affordable housing, a grocery, green space, cultural services, street changes, etc. all because it will have an addictions clinic. What is currently there is not working

No, I am not condeming the entire project at all. I am skeptical about the 24 hour drop in community centre wide open right on portage. What is there is not working in part because of crime. Have you seen our bus shelters?

Second, you are implying that addiction and homelessness will recede or somehow not worsen in downtown if we avoid placing an addiction clinic in a medical facility. That is unlikely to be the case. I have already given you an example of an addiction clinic downtown in Vancouver. Go look up institutions like NY Presbyterian, Mount Sinai, or any of the NYC HHC hospitals, etc. in Manhattan that all have addiction clinics

No I am not implying that. Things seem to be getting worse. Part of the project includes a community and 24 hour drop in centre. From the very begining certain people were asking for 24 hour bathrooms for homeless people. Go back and check it out on this very thread. The activist were concerned that people would lose a "gathering space" if portage place was redeveloped. They got their way.

Third, RAAM is trying to help people fight drug addiction. It's not easy, but I haven't seen evidence of the RAAM clinic being responsible for increased crime in these areas. Have you?

No but I havent seen evidence of it decreasing it either. Evidence shows Crime is up 14% in Manitoba this year. I suspect point douglas is not the exception.

Here's an article from a few months ago.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/...verity,in%20any%20province%20in%20Canada.

Fourth, from a CBC article I learned that 26.8% of Winnipeg's budget was spent on the police force in 2022. In Vancouver this is 20%, Toronto 7.4%, Calgary 17.5%, Ottawa 9.3%. How are you proposing we lower crime?

Are you implying we should defund the police? Maybe there is a reason those cities don't need to spend as much on cops. I have seen people use this example before, usually the same people that call for defunding the police.

[Atrial78]

I understand there are elements of the project that you don't like, but there are a lot of people who want to see this succeed and this is the best option Winnipeg has right now to move forward.

As for crime increasing, it has unfortunately been an issue across the country. The spike in cost of living, rise in mental health concerns during the pandemic, overburdened healthcare system, and increase in the potency of drugs is likely playing a role. If anything, the RAAM clinics may have prevented the crime rates from rising even further - we just can't postulate without seeing the data.
(https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/police-reported-crime-report-2022-1.6919999)

As for the police, the only one who mentioned defunding is you. I asked you how can we decrease crime. How much more of the budget can we allocate to the police before we start to limit other services the city provides?

I'm all ears for respectfully debating ideas. It's just not helpful to complain and not provide solutions.

[1ajs]

Originally Posted by dmacc

This does actually occur. A couple medical researchers I worked with recently live in the west exchange due to the ability to commute to work. They are both from out of province and may have a greater drive for urban living but it does happen.

This project may not cure all that is wrong with downtown but you can only lay a strong foundation one brick at a time.

yes but when u have slum lords that dont do much but take easy rent aka welfare for many decades bringing an area down its hard to make the area atractive as they high graded the piss out of rnt and did barly any upkeep

i grew up surounded by this tpye of rental and have some idea of this buisnes model

[pspeid]

Originally Posted by Atrial78

I understand there are elements of the project that you don't like, but there are a lot of people who want to see this succeed and this is the best option Winnipeg has right now to move forward.

I'm all ears for respectfully debating ideas. It's just not helpful to complain and not provide solutions.

Exactly, exactly, exactly!

While there are certainly problems that need to be discussed, complaining actually "shrinks" your brain. Even listening to (or in this case, reading) complaints is detrimental to one's mental health. I enjoy reading posts on this site, getting the lowdown on construction projects and considering opinions, but I always check to see who has recently posted on a topic and just avoid it (or block those posters) for my own good.

My source:

https://m1psychology.com/complaining-is-bad-for-your-brain/

[Hecate]

All I hear when people mention this lame 🞵🞵🞵 project is David Thompson’s bank accounts growing larger. Why doesn’t the province just put the money up to develop this pig and start up its own crown Corp and funnel the profits back to Manitobans instead of the richest man in Canada.

It’s across the street from the largest and busiest entertainment venue in the city. And they want a 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 rehab centre there? Of course true north will jump at the opportunity to cash in on those government rents, only a fool wouldn’t. Could easily transform the mall into an entertainment driven destination, a casino would have been better. Beautiful casino with hotel, spa, water park, theatre and cinemas and imax. Would have been 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 awesome but we’re getting a rehab centre. HAHAHAHAH loserpeg for sure.

[roccerfeller]

Originally Posted by dmacc

What is a safe dose of Hydromorphone? Hydromorphone is an addictive substance similar to other opioids. Though likely less harmful or addictive than herion, giving it out to addicts doesn't feel like a solution.

Hey dmacc, I’ll take a stab at this: (pun not intended lol)

Simple question but a complex answer

The driving principle behind it is harm reduction which is a type of primary health care, to ultimately minimize the greater harms imposed by illicit (such as opioids) or even legal substance use (such as tobacco) and the negative health impact at large. Better to have a safer controlled substance and promote steps towards reintegration into society however small they may be. Not everyone does because addiction and harm brought by the street drugs is immense but preventing even one person not taking up a dialysis bed that didn’t need to so someone else could helps with the burden of healthcare. In some cases some of these motivated individuals stabilize on their addiction and reintegrate back into society again contributing towards the economy

The population varies too - some of these people never had simple education or stable home environments and learned about social norms if the first place, others have made it far in life but took a significant step back and need help.

A safe dose of hydromorphone is variable and differs from person to person
Addiction is a complex issue. It’s not as simple as giving out a narcotic. That’s one component of it but it’s a larger, complex health issue (physical, mental, social) which is partly why it might not feel like a solution at first glance, but it is an evidence based solution to an unfortunately growing problem. There’s usually a lot of trauma and other damage that comes from addiction so beyond the narcotic people need at a bare minimum counselling and support for reintegration (housing, how to apply for a job etc)

[esquire]

The problem is that I don't think there is a winning scenario here.

Clearly no one is going to put private capital into the Portage Place site. Only government cash is going to make anything happen there.

So what options are Winnipeggers left with?

a) let Portage Place continue to rot under its current ownership (not necessarily the worst option as it's the one that requires the least public investment)

b) demolish the whole thing and start over (personally I could get behind this if it meant re-establishing the street grid and selling off the land in small, developable parcels, but we all know it would end up as a giant surface parking lot for the next 50 years)

c) do a government-backed Portage Place 2.0 by redeveloping the site into a new mix of retail, residential and entertainment (probably would be about as successful as the first version)

d) turn it into some kind of institutional site where it provides a home to something that would require building somewhere anyway, for things like health care, education, social services or what have you. Not glamorous, but at least it meets an actual need.

Option d is not my favourite, but it's defensible.

It's kind of wild, when I first joined this forum we bemoaned how commercial activity on Selkirk Avenue was being replaced by social service agencies and the like. Who knew that barely 20 years later the same thing would happen to Portage Avenue.

[WinCitySparky]

It’s almost as if Winnipeg is still a swamp

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by Atrial78

I understand there are elements of the project that you don't like, but there are a lot of people who want to see this succeed and this is the best option Winnipeg has right now to move forward.

As for crime increasing, it has unfortunately been an issue across the country. The spike in cost of living, rise in mental health concerns during the pandemic, overburdened healthcare system, and increase in the potency of drugs is likely playing a role. If anything, the RAAM clinics may have prevented the crime rates from rising even further - we just can't postulate without seeing the data.
(https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/police-reported-crime-report-2022-1.6919999)

As for the police, the only one who mentioned defunding is you. I asked you how can we decrease crime. How much more of the budget can we allocate to the police before we start to limit other services the city provides?

I'm all ears for respectfully debating ideas. It's just not helpful to complain and not provide solutions.

Go back and read earlier post in this thread. Defunding has been mentioned and usually by people who quote the very statistics you mentioned.

I personally think the drop in centres would be better off located elsewhere. At the end of the day the activist got what they wanted and people like yourself see no issue with this. So If this project goes through, I hope it works out and homelessness and drugs decrease downtown. I thnk this location, street level on portage would be better off as a cultural, entertainment or retail space. Things that have the potential to get everyone, all sectors of Winnipeg and tourist from elsewhere back downtown. I hope time proves me wrong and this cleans up downtown like everyone is claiming it will. You win.

[WinCitySparky]

I feel like I really want it to create betterness on that strip and downtown as a whole but I personally feel very skeptical at this early stage, all joking aside and listening to all these discussions. Being a resident here all my life and seeing what happened when they tried to use this same idea to better Main St north of Portage and Selkirk Ave, I just don’t see it, but I want to be wrong because I love this town overall.

[pspeid]

Originally Posted by WinCitySparky

I feel like I really want it to create betterness on that strip and downtown as a whole but I personally feel very skeptical at this early stage, all joking aside and listening to all these discussions. Being a resident here all my life and seeing what happened when they tried to use this same idea to better Main St north of Portage and Selkirk Ave, I just don’t see it, but I want to be wrong because I love this town overall.

Doesn't the residential component of this project make it different from the ones you have mentioned? Along with the largely residential make-over of The Bay, there will, hopefully be more activity to that end of Portage Ave. It seems like most people who have studied the problem of revitalizing the downtown agree that more residents are a vital component to a more vital downtown.

[WinCitySparky]

Yes you’re right to point that out and I agree there, that part about it feeds the hopeful part of my take on it.

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by esquire

T

It's kind of wild, when I first joined this forum we bemoaned how commercial activity on Selkirk Avenue was being replaced by social service agencies and the like. Who knew that barely 20 years later the same thing would happen to Portage Avenue.

Yes and the worst part about it is, despite the amount of services, Selkirk is not doing so well, it's gotten worse over the years.