Winnipeg | Downtown | Portage Place | Redevelopment | U/C

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by CoryB

For those old enough to remember, Medical Arts in downtown used to be a very busy hub for doctors, dentists, etc. So there is definitely presence for it working in Winnipeg. My understanding is the big challenge Medical Arts ran into is similar to the more recent issues with the Manitoba Clinic in that the costs to be in the building v the benefits from being in the building did not support doctors continuing to run their business from there. I also think another factor may have been that at its peak Medical Arts had fairly full occupancy leading many, at the time, younger doctors to seek alternatives for establishing their practices. This lead to many of them setting up in strip malls and similar in communities throughout Winnipeg. When the older doctors started retiring from Medical Arts there was no longer the same demand for space as the patient expectation had changed from travelling to see the doctor to the doctor being close to the patients. Further, of the six different specialists I have needed to see in office only two had offices in downtown Winnipeg. Of those two one retired and the other was in the process of moving their practice out of downtown when I finished my time with their service.

In terms of the "full size grocery store" downtown that continues to be a laughable idea. Locally there are essentially three companies that make up almost 100% of that market, Loblaws/Weston Foods, Empire/Sobeys, and Walmart. Focusing on Walmart first, they do not currently operate their grocery only Neighborhood Market in Canada and there is no publicly announced plans for that. Further, Walmart does not currently have any small format locations and does not appear to have any in the planning stages for Canada or elsewhere.

Empire has a history of operating urban stores in cities such as Calgary and Edmonton but has since closed them all. They also show some signs they are still working through fully integrated their Safeway acquisition into the company with store renovations and conversions still taking place as of last year. This is likely to continue to be their focus for some time unless someone is going to make them a sweetheart deal (ie give them a negative value long term lease). Their recent downgrade of the Sargent Safeway to their No Frills banner also is an indicator of where they see themselves in the Winnipeg market.

That leaves Loblaws. Of the three large players Loblaws is also the furthest on the progression to online grocery ordering and fulfilment. The pandemic pushed their current systems close to a breaking point and they company did a lot to pivot and follow where the market was going including making on the fly pivots to convert large sections of retail floor space into improvised fulfilment staging areas. They learned a lot for their backend and processes over those years. Also their 2013 purchase of Shoppers Drug Mart was in part to secure last mile locations for online grocery pickup and near customer distribution. With a large existing presence already in Portage Place they have the best internal knowledge of the downtown Winnipeg demographic. Their overall strategy appears to be shifting slowly away from "full size grocery stores" that allow customers to shop in person to "staff only fulfilment centers" which allow customer pickup and perhaps delivery. The amount of space needed for a Loblaws pickup fulfilment area that is backended out of an existing location elsewhere in Winnipeg and delivered once a day also is very telling.

Speaking of grocery delivery, that is exactly why the bonus entry, Save-on-Foods, won't be the one to open a full sized grocery store in downtown Winnipeg. Yes their prices might be a little higher and they do have a smaller format operating locally on St James however when they came to Winnipeg they quickly introduced their popular online groceries delivered to your home model. In the 7 years in the Winnipeg market they have only opened two additional stores and this is despite Empire exiting operations from multiple locations. Based on observations they seem very content with their place in the market and are focused on expanding online ordering for home delivery more so than expanding their retail presence.

Of course that leaves a wild card, Red River Co-op. That organization nearly bankrupted themselves operating grocery stores in the past so it was a complete surprise when they got back into that business line 10 years ago. They have passed up opportunities for obvious new stores, like the former Safeway on Ness, and taken risks on others like the brand new build in Seaons area. Reportedly they are running groceries at close to a break even point which is not overly surprising with the overall industry trend of less than 5% return. With the right compensation package they could easily be the one to open a full service grocery store downtown but being honest here they don't have a positive track record in the segment either.

So, for all the "downtown needs a full service grocery store" group, care to show your work on who exactly is going to be opening this theorized store?

Loblaws operates urban-format grocery stores through their Loblaws City Market/Provigo Le Marche brand. There's a City Market located in Edmonton's ICE District, one opening soon in D/T Vancouver and a Provigo Le Marche in D/T Montreal; directly across from the Bell Centre. As well, Loblaws operates full-service D/T grocery stores in Toronto, Halifax, Ottawa, Calgary, Montreal, etc.

Sobeys (Empire) operates both urban-format and full-service D/T grocery stores across Canada under their many brands in locations such as Victoria, Vancouver, Kelowna, Calgary, Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, Moncton, Halifax. Empire has acquired Farm Boy out of Ottawa which has numerous urban format grocery stores in D/T Toronto and Ottawa. There's talk of Sobeys expanding the geographical presence of Farm Boy.

Save-on-Foods (Overwaitea) is a funny one. Though they have numerous urban-format stores in BC and Alberta, they are not located D/T. In Vancouver, their high-end brand, Urban Fare, has three D/T locations. Don't expect to see Urban Fare in Winnipeg; too high end for this market.

D/T Winnipeg could be an opportunity for Red River Co-op. Lots of brand loyalty and as the locally-owned grocer, they can play that to their advantage.

[Atrial78]

Originally Posted by Johnny199r

A health facility downtown will attract young professionals to stay downtown or the surrounding areas? That’s a fantasy.

As a young professional myself, I choose to reside in a surrounding area (ie. St. B, Osborne, Exchange, West Broadway) and so do most of the young professionals I know. This is starting to be reflected in the development/rents in a lot of these areas as well. Where do you think young professionals would actually prefer to be? My experience has been that few would choose the suburbs if they can make it work in a location closer to work in the city.

Regarding a grocery store downtown, I can't speak to the feasibility. However, I'd imagine that True North would do it's due diligence. It may be worth a level of government giving a financial guarantee similar to what the provincial government did for Westjet and some of its new routes from YWG.

[The Jabroni]

We've been talking about a grocery store downtown for 20 years.

At this point, we'll be talking more about a grocery store downtown in 20 years.

[WinCitySparky]

I wonder how the reconnecting of Portage to Ellice via Edmonton will affect development on Ellice, which has been a virtual development desert for decades now, the Glasshouse parkade notwithstanding.

[BlackDog204]

Originally Posted by The Jabroni

We've been talking about a grocery store downtown for 20 years.

At this point, we'll be talking more about a grocery store downtown in 20 years.

There is a Safeway in the Osborne Viillage. There is an Extra Foods on Tache and Goulet. There is another Safeway at Sherbrooke and Sargeant.

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by Atrial78

Yes, actually having health facilities downtown is beneficial and commonplace in many major cities around the world.

Really? What cities have similar facilities? Facilities that also include a 24 hour walk in clinic and drop in centre for drug addicts?

[Atrial78]

Originally Posted by Luisito

Really? What cities have similar facilities? Facilities that also include a 24 hour walk in clinic and drop in centre for drug addicts?

Nearly every major city has a medical facility downtown as well as addiction treatment services. You can simply google "(city) drug addictions clinic" and you will see them downtown in Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, Calgary, etc.

In addition, having a walk-in clinic and primary care downtown is a positive. It is for the entire community, not just for "drug addicts". The drug addictions clinic "RAAM" is for advice and counseling to help those who want to quit. I don't see an issue with this in the context of a large medical facility. This facility will also have dialysis, physiotherapy, ambulatory surgery, Orthopedics, concussion clinic, pain medicine, sports medicine, etc. This is very positive for Winnipeg.

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by Atrial78

Nearly every major city has a medical facility downtown as well as addiction treatment services. You can simply google "(city) drug addictions clinic" and you will see them downtown in Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, Calgary, etc.

Sure in downtown but right in the middle of an area that would normally be there for cultural/entertainment attractions or retail space? So there is something similar in Dundas square or the Eatons centres in Toronto or Montreal?

In addition, having a walk-in clinic and primary care downtown is a positive. It is for the entire community, not just for "drug addicts". The drug addictions clinic "RAAM" is for advice and counseling to help those who want to quit. I don't see an issue with this in the context of a large medical facility. This facility will also have dialysis, physiotherapy, ambulatory surgery, Orthopedics, concussion clinic, pain medicine, sports medicine, etc. This is very positive for Winnipeg.

So i looked up RAAM and I found they are currently located in Point douglas area. If the plan is to put this right on portage along with a 24 hour walk in clinic, don't you think this would bring in even more addicts and homeless to the portage place area?

Have you seen what the air canada plaza right across the street from PP looks like these days? People have been stabbed there. Not everyone that congregates there is a bad person, but if there are more services in that spot naturally more homeless people will come. I don't see how this would be a positive for everyone and bring people back downtown. I think though for the average person this would not really be helpful in bringing them back downtown. I want to believe this is a good idea and it will actually help but how can we be sure this won't make things worse?

Here's a look at whats going on across the street.
• Video Link

[cllew]

Originally Posted by BlackDog204

There is a Safeway in the Osborne Viillage. There is an Extra Foods on Tache and Goulet. There is another Safeway at Sherbrooke and Sargeant.

Sherbrooke and Sargent Safeway converted to a FreshCo brand in 2021.

And if its like the Safeway to FreshCo conversion on Henderson Highway the brands available have dropped to the point I drive another 7 minutes north to the full line Safeway that is still on Henderson

[pspeid]

Originally Posted by Luisito

Really? What cities have similar facilities? Facilities that also include a 24 hour walk in clinic and drop in centre for drug addicts?

What's your solution to the addiction problem? Please don't just say what it's not, or disparage programs you disagree with. If you don't think that medical services are the answer, or at least not medical services right downtown, just say what you think will remedy the addiction problem.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Luisito

Sure in downtown but right in the middle of an area that would normally be there for cultural/entertainment attractions or retail space? So there is something similar in Dundas square or the Eatons centres in Toronto or Montreal?

This right here.

No one is saying that there shouldn't be addictions services or whatever in central Winnipeg. But there is a difference between having them available in those areas and putting them in the most prominent, what should be the most desirable spaces.

It has become clear that a lot of prime commercial real estate in downtown Winnipeg is nearly worthless. Look at some of the big classic banking halls that would be corporate showpieces in other cities (CIBC on Main - empty for decades until it got turned into a part time wedding hall, BMO - abandoned by the bank and handed off to the MMF), or retail spaces (The Bay - again, abandoned by corporate Canada and handed off to First Nations interests to deal with the problem, Portage Place - slowly deteriorating to near-total vacancy and now TN has hatched a business plan to make it a medical centre).

These are super ominous signs for downtown Winnipeg.

[pspeid]

Originally Posted by esquire

This right here.

These are super ominous signs for downtown Winnipeg.

I just did a quick google search under the phrase "downtown problems". My first page of search results quickly presented me with a series of links to articles about similar problems, concerns and fears in Regina, Saskatoon, Edmonton, London (Ontario....the "second most popular London in the world"), Lethbridge, Calgary, New Westminster, Vancouver, San Francisco, Hamilton, Windsor, Kelowna, Victoria, St. Catherine's and Guelph.

Downtowns are struggling petty much everywhere, except perhaps in the largest cities. I'm not saying this to dismiss Winnipeg's issues or make light of them. I'm pointing out that downtown revitalization is a complicated, slow-moving process in many, many cities.

It would be very convenient, if not a major ego stroke, to see a line-up of wealthy developers who can't wait to spend their money on downtown Winnipeg. Just because that's not happening doesn't mean there's something uniquely terrible about the city, it means that we are going need to continue to actively oversee and promote downtown development.

I don't think this need is ever going to stop. We'll never be in a position where we can sit back and let rich sugar-daddies spend their money building skyscrapers in the downtown without some kinds of incentives and promotion. Is this a bad thing? I think it's actually pretty normal for most cities in North America.

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by pspeid

What's your solution to the addiction problem? Please don't just say what it's not, or disparage programs you disagree with. If you don't think that medical services are the answer, or at least not medical services right downtown, just say what you think will remedy the addiction problem.

I am not against these programs. I understand medical services for addicts are needed. I am questioning if this is really the right location do a social experiment like this and I think my question is legitimate. How do we know that this 24 hour drop in centre and the walk in clinic will not just increase the number of homeless and addicts in the area?

Some one mentioned the RAAM program and said that is what will be at the new portage place location. From my understanding there is a RAAM location in point douglas. I think it's fair to ask, how has RAAM improved point douglas? Has it actually reduced addictions in that area? Has it reduced crime? Has it helped the majority of addicts in that area get off the street? Is this the right thing to do, to put this smack dab in the middle of Winnipeg, on what is possibly the most important piece of real estate in the city? Again how can you gaurantee this will not increase the number of homeless and addicts coming into the area?

Originally Posted by esquire

This right here.

No one is saying that there shouldn't be addictions services or whatever in central Winnipeg. But there is a difference between having them available in those areas and putting them in the most prominent, what should be the most desirable spaces.

It has become clear that a lot of prime commercial real estate in downtown Winnipeg is nearly worthless. Look at some of the big classic banking halls that would be corporate showpieces in other cities (CIBC on Main - empty for decades until it got turned into a part time wedding hall, BMO - abandoned by the bank and handed off to the MMF), or retail spaces (The Bay - again, abandoned by corporate Canada and handed off to First Nations interests to deal with the problem, Portage Place - slowly deteriorating to near-total vacancy and now TN has hatched a business plan to make it a medical centre).

These are super ominous signs for downtown Winnipeg.

Exactly!

[esquire]

Originally Posted by pspeid

I just did a quick google search under the phrase "downtown problems". My first page of search results quickly presented me with a series of links to articles about similar problems, concerns and fears in Regina, Saskatoon, Edmonton, London (Ontario....the "second most popular London in the world"), Lethbridge, Calgary, New Westminster, Vancouver, San Francisco, Hamilton, Windsor, Kelowna, Victoria, St. Catherine's and Guelph.

Downtowns are struggling petty much everywhere, except perhaps in the largest cities. I'm not saying this to dismiss Winnipeg's issues or make light of them. I'm pointing out that downtown revitalization is a complicated, slow-moving process in many, many cities.

It would be very convenient, if not a major ego stroke, to see a line-up of wealthy developers who can't wait to spend their money on downtown Winnipeg. Just because that's not happening doesn't mean there's something uniquely terrible about the city, it means that we are going need to continue to actively oversee and promote downtown development.

I don't think this need is ever going to stop. We'll never be in a position where we can sit back and let rich sugar-daddies spend their money building skyscrapers in the downtown without some kinds of incentives and promotion. Is this a bad thing? I think it's actually pretty normal for most cities in North America.

I agree that many downtowns are struggling post-covid. But having been to a good number of downtowns in Canada, the US and a few in the UK since the pandemic, it's clear that ours was clobbered exceptionally hard.

For one, the pandemic has killed off most of whatever mainstream retail remained... that alone is massive. Downtown Regina and Saskatoon's downtown retail options now utterly dwarf what we have in Winnipeg. And like it or not, that is an important component for a successful downtown.

The unravelling social fabric downtown has probably hurt the market for downtown residential as well. It's not as appealing a place to be as it was 5 years ago and that has to have an impact on a number of fronts.

I mean, all you have to do is walk around the streets. It does not look like a functional downtown at this point. Maybe you have been here so long that you are inured to it, but just ask a newcomer what they make of downtown Winnipeg and you will find out how it looks to a fresh set of eyes. My concern is that it has passed the point of no return. It's so bad and the problems are so complex that I'm not sure it can really be fixed anymore.

We're kind of entering that domain of rust belt cities where you might get the odd new (typically subsidized) showpiece building here and there, but by and large the downtown is fundamentally broken.

[thebasketballgeek]

^Rust belt cities don’t grow by 20-30k per year, but Winnipeg is. Inner city and DT populations have been increasing ever since the turn of the century but the situation seems to have gotten worse. Why is that?

Fact of the matter is too many residents don’t care about DT, the politicians municipally and especially provincially couldn’t care less about DT, and no one is willing to do anything to deal with the cities car dependency problem which affects DT and inner city neighborhoods the most. These surface parking lots never seem to go away and traffic calming measures are never considered. Then we want to exacerbate social issues by putting addiction centre in the heart of DT. You don’t see addiction centres on René Lévesque BLVD, Yonge St, or Granville St so why should they be present on Portage?

Winnipeg is a contender for most apathetic (or pathetic depending who you ask) city in the western world outside of America because the cities down south are mostly dumpsters. Missing the people, but not really missing the city too much.

The solutions are not as complex as we are led to believe and a lot of the answers come from 3 words. Good City Planning…

[cheswick]

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

^Rust belt cities don’t grow by 20-30k per year, but Winnipeg is. Inner city and DT populations have been increasing ever since the turn of the century but the situation seems to have gotten worse. Why is that?

Fact of the matter is too many residents don’t care about DT, the politicians municipally and especially provincially couldn’t care less about DT, and no one is willing to do anything to deal with the cities car dependency problem which affects DT and inner city neighborhoods the most. These surface parking lots never seem to go away and traffic calming measures are never considered. Then we want to exacerbate social issues by putting addiction centre in the heart of DT. You don’t see addiction centres on René Lévesque BLVD, Yonge St, or Granville St so why should they be present on Portage?

Winnipeg is a contender for most apathetic (or pathetic depending who you ask) city in the western world outside of America because the cities down south are mostly dumpsters. Missing the people, but not really missing the city too much.

The solutions are not as complex as we are led to believe and a lot of the answers come from 3 words. Good City Planning…

1. Clinique de médecine des toxicomanies 264, boul. René-Lévesque Est
2. New Life Counselling - Addictions Treatment Centre 4211 Yonge St.
3. Addiction Therapy: Yale Medical Centre, 1280 Granville St
4. "A former hotel in downtown Vancouver is now offering supportive housing amid the province’s overdose crisis. The former Howard Johnson in the 1100-block of Granville Street features a safe medication dispensing machine in the lobby. It scans a registered user’s hand and then dispenses a safe dose of hydromorphone, a medicinal alternative to heroin." Source: https://globalnews.ca/news/7375089/vancouver-howard-johnson-supportive-housing/

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by cheswick

1. Clinique de médecine des toxicomanies 264, boul. René-Lévesque Est
2. New Life Counselling - Addictions Treatment Centre 4211 Yonge St.
3. Addiction Therapy: Yale Medical Centre, 1280 Granville St
4. "A former hotel in downtown Vancouver is now offering supportive housing amid the province’s overdose crisis. The former Howard Johnson in the 1100-block of Granville Street features a safe medication dispensing machine in the lobby. It scans a registered user’s hand and then dispenses a safe dose of hydromorphone, a medicinal alternative to heroin." Source: https://globalnews.ca/news/7375089/vancouver-howard-johnson-supportive-housing/

4211 Yonge St. is nowhere near D/T Toronto. It's North York.
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7475264,...1CQCxym1Q1g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

Plus, it looks like New Life Counselling is fee for service; outside of OHIP. A very different service model than what's proposed for PP in Winnipeg.

Granville Street in D/T Vancouver is a de facto centre of social services agencies in Vancouver. A more appropriate analogy is one would not see these services on Robson St; or at the intersection of Georgia and Burrard. And 264 Rene Levesque East is part of the CHUM hospital; located on the eastern fringe of D/T Montreal. You do not see these services in the core of D/T Montreal; say at Peel and Rene Levesque.

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by cheswick

1. Clinique de médecine des toxicomanies 264, boul. René-Lévesque Est
2. New Life Counselling - Addictions Treatment Centre 4211 Yonge St.
3. Addiction Therapy: Yale Medical Centre, 1280 Granville St
4. "A former hotel in downtown Vancouver is now offering supportive housing amid the province’s overdose crisis. The former Howard Johnson in the 1100-block of Granville Street features a safe medication dispensing machine in the lobby. It scans a registered user’s hand and then dispenses a safe dose of hydromorphone, a medicinal alternative to heroin." Source: https://globalnews.ca/news/7375089/vancouver-howard-johnson-supportive-housing/

I am not familiar with the last location in Vancouver but the first three are not comparable to portage place at all and none of them are 24 hours. The second one is not even downtown toronto.

[Johnny199r]

Originally Posted by Atrial78

As a young professional myself, I choose to reside in a surrounding area (ie. St. B, Osborne, Exchange, West Broadway) and so do most of the young professionals I know. This is starting to be reflected in the development/rents in a lot of these areas as well. Where do you think young professionals would actually prefer to be? My experience has been that few would choose the suburbs if they can make it work in a location closer to work in the city.

Regarding a grocery store downtown, I can't speak to the feasibility. However, I'd imagine that True North would do it's due diligence. It may be worth a level of government giving a financial guarantee similar to what the provincial government did for Westjet and some of its new routes from YWG.

Originally Posted by Johnny199r

A health facility downtown will attract young professionals to stay downtown or the surrounding areas? That’s a fantasy.

Again, a health facility downtown will do nothing to attract young professionals to stay downtown or surrounding areas.

A new medical facility going in at Portage Place? I'll definitely move to downtown or Central Park now! That's definitely the deciding factor! Who would say that?

Do young professionals move near HSC because the hospital is there?

My ex recently moved downtown to a really high end apartment building. She told me she regrets it as she doesn't feel safe walking around after working hours (she works in the justice system and used to live in Thompson, she's sure hasnt lived a sheltered life)

I live in Osborne area/Corydon and really like it. I dont have any safety concerns in this area. We're both professionals

There's not going to suddenly be some critical mass of people living downtown or in close proximity to Portage place because of a medical facility for a million reasons. Find a cure for meth and maybe more people would start to trickle into the core areas a bit more. That's as good as it would get. Let's also not pretend core neighborhoods are a monolith. They aren't. Some have huge warts, some don't.

[dmacc]

Originally Posted by Johnny199r

Again, a health facility downtown will do nothing to attract young professionals to stay downtown or surrounding areas.

A new medical facility going in at Portage Place? I'll definitely move to downtown or Central Park now! That's definitely the deciding factor! Who would say that?

Do young professionals move near HSC because the hospital is there?

My ex recently moved downtown to a really high end apartment building. She told me she regrets it as she doesn't feel safe walking around after working hours (she works in the justice system and used to live in Thompson, she's sure hasnt lived a sheltered life)

I live in Osborne area/Corydon and really like it. I dont have any safety concerns in this area. We're both professionals

There's not going to suddenly be some critical mass of people living downtown or in close proximity to Portage place because of a medical facility for a million reasons. Find a cure for meth and maybe more people would start to trickle into the core areas a bit more. That's as good as it would get. Let's also not pretend core neighborhoods are a monolith. They aren't. Some have huge warts, some don't.

This does actually occur. A couple medical researchers I worked with recently live in the west exchange due to the ability to commute to work. They are both from out of province and may have a greater drive for urban living but it does happen.

This project may not cure all that is wrong with downtown but you can only lay a strong foundation one brick at a time.