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  #141  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2023, 7:56 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is online now
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Originally Posted by zzptichka View Post
There is no overlap. Every cycling advocate I know, on twitter and in real life, supports transit. Must be something personal.
Propose using QED for transit, and see what happens.
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  #142  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2023, 8:10 PM
Kelnoz Kelnoz is offline
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Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
Propose using QED for transit, and see what happens.
I don't think most cyclists would mind a bus every five minutes...
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  #143  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2023, 8:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
Propose using QED for transit, and see what happens.
It won't be cyclists that drive opposition to transit on QED. Drivers and some local residents will be the culprits there.
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  #144  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2023, 10:37 PM
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No one is saying drivers are evil, but the group who primarily/exclusively drives in this city dwarfs all of the other groups combined and its political clout is obvious - just take a look at Ottawa's sprawly cityscape. While every advocacy group is fueled by a healthy dose of self interest, the impact of the drivers' self interest in advocating for road space has a much more negative impact on urbanism in general and the central neighbourhoods in particular. Transit and cycling advocates may be self-interested, but their self interest is much more compatible with vibrant urban neighbourhoods, good environmental practices and mobility for the whole population.
The challenge is to get a win, win solution as much as possible, where we improve active transport, while not degrading transit and keeping reasonable car access. We need to convince some car drivers that some trips could be done better by other means. But we have degraded transit and our active transport network is very fragmented. We should thank the NCC for their foresight in building MUPs along the parkways back in the 1970s, a continuous network. The problem with advocacy groups is that their focus is on one cause rather finding the best balanced solution. That is how we end up with demands to close streets helter-skelter whenever an opportunity presents itself. This is when I get turned off. Where is that win win plan?
That tells me that there is none, or the plan we have is not being followed.
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  #145  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2023, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
Propose using QED for transit, and see what happens.
Correct. Once the road is closed, nobody wants transit there. What about the children? Anyways, we know that NCC does not want transit on its parkways. This is a longstanding policy. They made exceptions for temporary use, some of which lasted for years, but in the long-term, any remaining transit on the parkways will be removed.
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  #146  
Old Posted Aug 31, 2023, 1:26 PM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
The challenge is to get a win, win solution as much as possible, where we improve active transport, while not degrading transit and keeping reasonable car access. We need to convince some car drivers that some trips could be done better by other means. But we have degraded transit and our active transport network is very fragmented. We should thank the NCC for their foresight in building MUPs along the parkways back in the 1970s, a continuous network.
Win-win is absolutely the ideal, but in reality there are almost always going to be trade-offs. If rebalancing away from cars results in better capacity and a win for the city overall, then I count it as a win.

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The problem with advocacy groups is that their focus is on one cause rather finding the best balanced solution. That is how we end up with demands to close streets helter-skelter whenever an opportunity presents itself. This is when I get turned off. Where is that win win plan?
That tells me that there is none, or the plan we have is not being followed.
I've kind of accepted that advocacy groups are going to advocate and that there positions will be extreme, but that it's just part of the process. I do agree that the overall coordination of these projects is a disaster. We could win over a lot more people with just a basic level of planning and communication.
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  #147  
Old Posted Aug 31, 2023, 2:20 PM
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Win-win is absolutely the ideal, but in reality there are almost always going to be trade-offs. If rebalancing away from cars results in better capacity and a win for the city overall, then I count it as a win.



I've kind of accepted that advocacy groups are going to advocate and that there positions will be extreme, but that it's just part of the process. I do agree that the overall coordination of these projects is a disaster. We could win over a lot more people with just a basic level of planning and communication.
Maybe I don't always make myself clear, but I am hoping for those balanced solutions. I understand and support better transit, better active transport and the need for 'road diets'. They all go hand in hand. I am not always seeing that happening.
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  #148  
Old Posted Aug 31, 2023, 3:09 PM
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The balanced approach in Ottawa is status quo - no change. Anything else proposed is preposterous and should be fought tooth and nail.
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  #149  
Old Posted Aug 31, 2023, 4:46 PM
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I don't think most cyclists would mind a bus every five minutes...
Guarantee you, there would be kittens.
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  #150  
Old Posted Aug 31, 2023, 4:49 PM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
Correct. Once the road is closed, nobody wants transit there. What about the children? Anyways, we know that NCC does not want transit on its parkways. This is a longstanding policy. They made exceptions for temporary use, some of which lasted for years, but in the long-term, any remaining transit on the parkways will be removed.
There are signs the NCC is more amenable than it was of yore.
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  #151  
Old Posted Aug 31, 2023, 5:34 PM
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Originally Posted by OTSkyline View Post
The balanced approach in Ottawa is status quo - no change. Anything else proposed is preposterous and should be fought tooth and nail.
Part of the reason, the parkways already have some of the best and most continuous separated pedestrian and cycling paths in the city.

It is elsewhere that we most need improved cycling infrastructure.
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  #152  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2023, 1:27 PM
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NCC staff wanted to close Queen Elizabeth Driveway all the way to Preston
City opposes closing parkway to motorists south of Pretoria Bridge

Ben Andrews · CBC News
Posted: Sep 28, 2023 4:00 AM EDT | Last Updated: 5 hours ago




National Capital Commission (NCC) staff recommended shutting a much longer stretch of the Queen Elizabeth Driveway (QED) to motor vehicles this summer than was eventually closed, according to internal emails.

The recommendation by senior staff would have seen the driveway reserved for walking and cycling between Somerset and Preston streets, a stretch more than twice as long as the closure to Fifth Avenue.

It was included in a ream of internal documents obtained by CBC through an access to information request.

For months, the city and NCC have been at odds — both publicly and behind closed doors — over the stretch of federally owned and operated parkway along the canal.

Ottawa Mayor Mark Sutcliffe and NCC CEO Tobi Nussbaum sparred publicly on the issue, and city councillors have waded into the debate.

Generally, the NCC is defending its "active use" program as part of a broader push to reduce the road's importance as a commuter route, while the mayor has argued reserving the road for cyclists and pedestrians inconveniences more residents than it benefits.

CBC received NCC emails, memos and briefing notes from February to May of this year related to the active use program on the QED.

The documents shine a light on decision-making at the Crown corporation and show that more ambitious plans for the parkway were ultimately shelved in favour of minor tweaks to the existing program.

The NCC originally began reserving a portion of the QED for pedestrians and cyclists during the height of the COVID-19 pandemic, responding to calls to provide more public space for people to exercise while remaining physically distanced.

The popularity of the program, Nussbaum said, inspired the NCC to expand it.

As a result, both lanes of the QED between Somerset Street and Fifth Avenue were reserved for active use from 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. every day from July 1 to Sept. 4.

The same stretch of road was closed to vehicles on weekends and holiday Mondays through parts of the spring and fall.

In its latest annual report, the NCC noted 95 per cent of survey participants supported continuing the program.

In a March 15 email to senior management, an NCC transportation planner requested clarity on the QED closure to help prepare for a meeting with a community group.

Because a decision on the road hadn't yet been reached, the planner advised caution when sharing details in the meeting.

"Be careful how you approach this," the email read. "It can't sound like we're exploring this but only wish to hear [the community group] from last year's experience."

Meanwhile, NCC staff were exploring several options.

In a series of presentation slides drafted in March, staff estimated costs on six different scenarios for active use closures on the QED.

On the table for the summer was a 24/7 closure, a 12-hour-per-day closure and a weekend-only closure, each of which could stretch from Somerset to either Fifth Avenue or Preston Street.

Of these options, staff recommended closing the QED to Preston for 12 hours a day through July and August, plus weekends in the spring and fall.

That option would have cost the NCC $485,000 for the season. The cheapest option, a weekend-only closure from Somerset to Fifth, would have cost an estimated $138,250.

By March 21, the QED program still needed "a little more work on the financial side," an email read.

Two days later, an email said Bruce Devine, the NCC's senior manager of facilities and programs, had recommended closing the road to Preston in a meeting with CEO Nussbaum.

Before reaching a decision, however, Nussbaum required further information from the city on traffic impacts, according to that email.

None of the emails show why Nussbaum ultimately chose not to extend the closure, and the CEO did not respond to an interview request.

By April 5, staff had begun drafting a news release advertising the much shorter closure to Fifth.

In several of the documents, NCC staff discussed what the decision may mean for the "community relations file."

The closure to Preston was based on community feedback, staff said, and emails show decision-makers weighing the potential for blowback or praise from various groups who would be affected.

Staff, for example, predicted the advocacy group Parkways for People may be "unhappy" if 24/7 access for active use was dropped, and the group did go on to criticize the plan.

On the same issue, staff anticipated community associations and BIAs in the area would "likely be pleased."

As for stopping at Fifth, the NCC expected the Dow's Lake Residents' Association "may dislike" the decision, as the group had wanted to see active use stretched to Preston.

The documents include notes from a virtual meeting on April 21 between the NCC and representatives of various city departments and other stakeholders.

City of Ottawa traffic services, emergency services and the Ottawa Sports and Entertainment Group (OSEG) each opposed all of the QED closure options provided by the NCC.

Nonetheless, the commission was still "looking to extend closure of QED between Somerset & Preston for active transportation as early as 2024," according to the meeting notes.

In an email to CBC, director of traffic services Phil Landry said the city stands by its request that the NCC consider other options for active transportation.

The city pointed to a traffic study dated April 6 that found the closure of the QED to Fifth had caused delays for emergency services and encouraged unsafe driving on nearby streets.

But in internal emails uncovered in a separate access to information request, an NCC manager wrote that some parts of that report "should be re-examined" due to "methodological errors," potential "miscalculations" and a "misrepresentation" of the active user analysis.

Landry said a closure ending at Preston would not alleviate traffic concerns and would "most likely increase" the number of streets in the Glebe facing more traffic.

"At the time, the City informed the NCC that it did not support closing QED at Preston Street," he said.

Mayor Sutcliffe said Wednesday that although he believes other streets in the neighbourhood may be good candidates for active transportation, he doesn't think the QED fits that purpose.

"I would not support extending the active transportation space to Preston," he said, adding he was not involved in the NCC's decision about this summer.

In an email to CBC, spokesperson Valérie Dufour said the NCC "analyzed a variety of options" before deciding to maintain the program to Fifth.

"The NCC has not made a decision yet for next year. We are currently gathering additional data and conducting further public surveys," Dufour wrote.

The QED has received more than 109,000 active use visits since May, Dufour added.

In an internal "key messages" report, NCC communications staff laid out several reasons why the commission would go ahead with the closure despite pushback from the city and OSEG.

"The experience of countless other places around the world reveal that, once initial concerns and perceptions are tested against the reality on the ground, the results are a net benefit, to commerce, retail, animation, and the general enjoyment and reputation of places that become friendlier to people on foot," it read.

"This is the evolution that the NCC wishes to encourage in the National Capital Region."

Transportation committee will be discussing data and a legal opinion from city staff about the QED program Thursday.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottaw...ails-1.6977923
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  #153  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2023, 2:05 PM
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I would like to see a study of the trend in number of visits to Gatineau Park as a result of closing the parkways for active use most of the time. Although I would like to go hiking in the park, I don't consider it anymore.
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  #154  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2023, 3:51 PM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
I would like to see a study of the trend in number of visits to Gatineau Park as a result of closing the parkways for active use most of the time. Although I would like to go hiking in the park, I don't consider it anymore.

There are lots of trails that are still accessible by car without using the parkways.
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  #155  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2023, 4:02 PM
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90% of them in fact. And even the other 10% are accessible must of the time by car, and accessible by a free shuttle when they aren't.

So basically the Berlin Wall, yes.
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  #156  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2023, 5:57 PM
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90% of them in fact. And even the other 10% are accessible must of the time by car, and accessible by a free shuttle when they aren't.

So basically the Berlin Wall, yes.
The free shuttle ended on August 27th, and only ran on weekends, with no true downtown Ottawa departure location.

https://ncc-ccn.gc.ca/places/gatineau-park-shuttle

I will decline the offer.

Of course, political correctness, does not want to prove that the number of visitors have increased or not.

Throughout my lifetime I have gone to Gatineau Park periodically using the parkways or the other public roads including leading a bus tour of people from outside Canada which I expect is now prohibited. I have not visited Gatineau Park since Covid and probably I will never visit Gatineau Park ever again. This is no different than when I was exhibitor at a City Hall event and was not provided with parking. Throw up road blocks and I will go elsewhere.

Last edited by lrt's friend; Sep 28, 2023 at 6:24 PM.
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  #157  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2023, 6:32 PM
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Throughout my lifetime I have gone to Gatineau Park periodically using the parkways or the other public roads including leading a bus tour of people from outside Canada which I expect is now prohibited. I have not visited Gatineau Park since Covid and probably I will never visit Gatineau Park ever again. This is no different than when I was exhibitor at a City Hall event and was not provided with parking. Throw up road blocks and I will go elsewhere.
I honestly think that this is pretty dramatic. I'm sure that visits to trails right off the bottom of the Parkway like Pink Lake are down, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. They were really overrun and could use a breather.

My experience on other trails (which I always access by car) is that they are just a busy as they were before, if not more. Given that I am in a car, I don't really find going a bit farther to be a huge imposition. Obviously you are free to make your own choices, but refusing to go anywhere in Gatineau Park ever again because a couple of roads are restricted seems like a case of cutting off your nose to spite your face.

P.S. - Gatineau Park was an amazing resource during Covid, at least when the provincial border was open.
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  #158  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2023, 7:21 PM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
The free shuttle ended on August 27th, and only ran on weekends, with no true downtown Ottawa departure location.

https://ncc-ccn.gc.ca/places/gatineau-park-shuttle
You're in luck! It's back starting this weekend. https://ncc-ccn.gc.ca/places/free-nc...-fall-rhapsody

As others have mentioned, there are still lots of places you can drive to. And for the few that you can't (e.g. Pink Lake) it's possible to park close (at Mackenzie King Estate or the South entrance) and take the shuttle one stop to get there.
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  #159  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2023, 7:32 PM
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Actually it was quite easy to climb King Mountain during a 'bus/active transportation' morning last fall for leafing. Here's what I did:

Simply park at the P3 area (200-300m down the pathway from there, on Gamelin) and walk into P3 to the bus stop. Take the yellow school bus for 10 minutes, with stops at Pink, Mackenzie King, King Mountain and Champlain Lookout.

The trail on the mountain was busy but not overrun, the parking/bus transfer was super easy and not chaotic (as it can be super stressful and chaotic to drive all the way up and park at the site).

In all, we had a great day. The parkway opened as we were leaving, for the afternoon 'car availability'. The parking lot at King and at the lookout was full immediately, cars were backed up down the parkway, and people looked super stressed, as we casually rode back down on the bus.

Contrary to LRT's friend, the bus is the ONLY way I'll be heading to parkway spots from now on (other than to ski-in during winter, because that's truly the best). It was much more fun and relaxing.

If you simply refuse to step foot on a school bus, I recommend Luskville Falls trail, you can mash your car into the parking area with the million other cars there, and have a great day on the slopes.

My experience is that Gatineau was underused in the 90's and 00's. It was always easy to go up whenever and have just a handful of cars around (except maybe fall). Now it's like every day of the year it's super busy. The park is having a real renaissance, and made even busier by COVID. There's nothing worse than trying to go to O'Brien parking and getting turned away because the lot is full.

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Originally Posted by phil235 View Post
I honestly think that this is pretty dramatic. I'm sure that visits to trails right off the bottom of the Parkway like Pink Lake are down, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. They were really overrun and could use a breather.

My experience on other trails (which I always access by car) is that they are just a busy as they were before, if not more. Given that I am in a car, I don't really find going a bit farther to be a huge imposition. Obviously you are free to make your own choices, but refusing to go anywhere in Gatineau Park ever again because a couple of roads are restricted seems like a case of cutting off your nose to spite your face.

P.S. - Gatineau Park was an amazing resource during Covid, at least when the provincial border was open.
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  #160  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2023, 12:42 AM
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Queen Elizabeth Drive closure slowing fire response
Thirty per cent of the calls from the Ottawa fire station on Fifth Avenue are delayed because of the NCC closure of the Driveway

Blair Crawford, Ottawa Citizen
Published Sep 28, 2023 • Last updated 6 hours ago • 2 minute read


Thirty per cent of the emergency responses by the city’s fire station on Fifth Avenue near the canal were delayed because of the shutdown of the Queen Elizabeth Driveway, according to data collected by the fire service.

While the fire service is meeting its minimum response standards, analysis of calls at Station 12, at the corner of Fifth and O’Connor Street, showed 30 per cent of them experienced some sort of delay because the Driveway has been closed to vehicles for much of the summer by the National Capital Commission.

“Although we’re meeting our thresholds, what we’ve seen in this area when we ran the data from July 2022, we reported 30 per cent experiencing delays getting to those calls because of the closure,” Fire Chief Paul Hutt told the city’s Transportation committee Thursday.

Firefighters have to regularly adjust their routes because of obstacles such as road construction, but the fire service did its best to look specifically at the effects from the Queen Elizabeth shutdown, Hutt said. Those delays include having to stop the truck and have firefighters move the wooden barricades aside, he said.

“I think it goes without saying, any delay is going to be difficult for us to endorse if it’s going to delay fire apparatus on that location, from a life and a property perspective,” Hutt said.

The fire service analysis was part of a larger city study of traffic flow during the Driveway shutdown. The NCC owns the road and during the COVID-19 pandemic began closing the road to vehicles so it could be used by cyclists and pedestrians.

The NCC continued to close the QED between the NAC and Fifth Avenue in the summer of 2023 from 8 a.m. to 8 p.m.—and on weekends in the spring and fall— for all but active transportation use.

But the city says the QED is a critical part of the capital’s road network that was used by about 10,000 vehicles a day near the busy Pretoria Bridge section.

The shutdown has been a polarizing issue with car commuters angry when the QED isn’t open and neighbours complaining about increased traffic on surrounding roads. Meanwhile, cyclists, both recreational and commuters, say the shutdown has made their rides safer and faster.

Mayor Mark Sutcliffe is on record saying he wants the Driveway reopened, but so far, the NCC hasn’t budged.

Hutt told the committee that the NCC listened when the fire service asked that the roadway be open during the night, but added that if the closure of the QED becomes permanent, the service will have to re-evaluate its deployment at Station 12.

“We’ll have to ask, ‘Is that the appropriate location for that station moving forward to serve our residents.'”

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...-fire-response
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