Public Disorder & the Decline of Vancouver's Livability

[Metro-One]

Well the opening of more detox centres is a good thing, but that approach of “we are not Japan so we shouldn’t consider looking at anything they do” can equally apply to any other nation or state that are often referenced to in support of the current policies in Vancouver for this issue (and others! I always see European nations and US states used as references / examples).

[Metro-One]

PS, I will note that I was in Victoria too, and while not great, the homeless issues there did seem more managed and contained than anywhere in Metro-Vancouver (or Nanaimo).

[Migrant_Coconut]

You say NIH syndrome, I say that pretty much every first world country is also having violent crime and homeless problems... from personal experience, even Singapore's gone stir-crazy, believe it or not.

Victoria's got less people, and Nanaimo's got even less than that - and BC Ferries isn't free. Of course their homeless count is smaller and more manageable. By contrast, the highest counts (to nobody's surprise) are in Ontario.

[Metro-One]

No, I mean Nanaimo is really really bad, especially for it’s population size. I do keep in mind relative population sizes (which does make things look even worse for Vancouver when places like metro Osaka (22 million) and Tokyo (35 million) have far far less of a homeless / addiction crisis.

Also it is more than just a per capita count, but also includes how the homeless are managed. Open drug use / theft / vandalism can make a problem much worse even with a small count (even with a smaller count per capita)

[Migrant_Coconut]

I doubt we have enough Internet cafes to copy the Japanese model (which also uses a lot of charities and shelters like we do).

Again, Tokyo and Osaka have the luxury of being part of a hyperconformist/collectivist culture that likes to keep social problems within the family to save face; that lower drug use and homeless rate is likely related to the higher suicide rate and NEET count.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

I doubt we have enough Internet cafes to copy the Japanese model (which also uses a lot of charities and shelters like we do).

Again, Tokyo and Osaka have the luxury of being part of a hyperconformist/collectivist culture that likes to keep social problems within the family to save face; that lower drug use and homeless rate is likely related to the higher suicide rate and NEET count.

Japan’s suicide rate has actually fallen a lot since the peak in the 90s. It’s still higher than Canada, but not by too much.

Canada is 11.8 per 100,000.
Japan is 15.3.

For comparisons South Korea is 28.6, the USA is 16.1, and Finland is also 15.3.

The world highest is Lesotho at 72.4 as of 2023.

So that is not a big enough difference to make up for the drug / homeless problem.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Conversely, Canada’s official percentage of illegal drug users is 3%… against Japan’s 1.5%. So not actually a very large difference at all (and probably smaller in terms of raw numbers).

Point is, it’s not as cut and dried as “Japan’s numbers are lower, therefore we should be like Japan;” sociopolitics would’ve been solved a long time ago in such a case.

[Metro-One]

Again, I agree a carbon copy of Japan’s approach is impossible in Canada, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t things we can learn from it.

For example, we often use Holland as an example for bike culture / infrastructure despite being very different places geographically and culturally. A one to one copy doesn’t work here either, but there are things we can learn from Holland.

For example, some easy things that we can learn from Japan is no more open drug use. Using drugs, okay, fine, but only in designated areas. Next, no dumpsters in the streets. This does wonders for keeping Japan’s nigh districts clean. Next, more prosecution for theft. This is double helpful for bike culture as well. Always being stressed about having your bike stollen is a huge roadblock for encouraging more riders. Etc…

PA, sleeping in parks overnight in Japan is legal (including all public land), you just need to be packed up and out by 7am. Another good law we should enforce.

[Metro-One]

Define illegal drugs now in Canada.

That 1.5% in Japan will include weed.

I think more than 3% of Canadians use weed!!! And mushrooms. Almost everyone I knew in university used them. Most people I still know today in Vancouver are casual users of weed, mushrooms, acid, mdma, etc…

Also lots of common painkillers prescribed in Canada are counted as illegal drugs in Japan.

[Migrant_Coconut]

IIRC many posters here (ourselves included) also contest the idea of Dutch bike culture being compatible with Vancouver. Same difference.

Enforcement of such is fairly unviable for a number of reasons (Bill C-75, overcrowded jails, lenient judges, etc etc). Besides, most theft and violence among the CoV homeless is from just a few dozen violent repeat offenders, so it’d be more productive to reopen Riverview or other facilities and expedite the existing justice system; once there’s a path to putting those guys away, it’s just a matter of producing enough shelters that we can get people off the streets before they risk becoming new offenders themselves.

If we count weed, Japan jumps up to near 3%. As of the 2015 survey, you’ve got 1.5% for organic solvents, 1 for cannabis, .5 for meth, .3 for NPSs and so on.

[Metro-One]

By no means do I think “putting people away” equates to jail.

I agree with you on more mental health facilities and hospitals for those incapable of taking care of themselves and rehab for other offenders.

I have been hearing about the reopening of Riverside for what seems like decades now. Was actually on the property two weeks ago. A silent as a ghost town. Didn’t see any sign of work being done to modernize the facility.

What is the actual plan? Is there an actual date / schedule set?

And yes, I know the idea that a one to one copy of the Dutch biking system is impossible, the point was that hasn’t stopped our governments from investigating their system and picking out certain aspects that might work / help our situation. (Such as the biking garages at train stations).

[Migrant_Coconut]

There’s Redfish Healing Centre… that’s about it for now. BC Housing says they shelved the plans.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

There’s Redfish Healing Centre… that’s about it for now. BC Housing says they shelved the plans.

See, that really disappoints me. I was really hoping to hear something different, that an actual plan was in place.

This just falls into my point that our current governments are not taking this issue seriously enough.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Those same stresses have affected every other place in the world, especially the western world, so those excuses have controls for comparison world wide, and her the same degradation hasn’t occurred everywhere. Also a lot of this was in full swing long before Covid and related inflation problems occurred.

All these issues are related because they have been spearheaded under the same principals and ideology under the same governing bodies.

Also questioning the logic of having 80+ genders now (which seems to have just become a new word for “personality”) does not equate to criticizing the rights of LGBTQ (all the other acronyms after that are committee driven hair splitting) no more than questioning the practices and validity of the Bible (or any other holy book) equates to criticizing the rights of religious followers.

And that perfectly shows how the issues are all related. Any questioning, doubt, or suggestion of thinking / approaching the situation differently equates to “hate / bigotry / etc…” to the pilgrims of said political dogma (which is what politics have essentially become in Canada now compared to a decade ago, it’s sad to see).

But sure, keep doubling down on the policies that have led to this disaster in the first place. Keep moving the goal posts. I’m sure soon people will start saying, “well, at least we’re not like Brazil” to excuse the homeless and safety issue (and more).

California is just doing so well in its major cities, just keep copying them!

One gets the sense that the people who run Canada, its provinces and cities have gotten bored with the nitty gritty basics that produce good quality of life and are more preoccupied with augmenting their sense of virtue through the theoretical and the cosmetic.

It's as if our society is now implementing Maszlow's pyramid, but upside down.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

I'm sure the same apologists will come out and say since they personally haven't been attacked or robbed, everything is fine.

I was in Vancouver the other week, and a huge benefit of living overseas and only visiting occasionally is that you escape the frog in slowly warming water condition, and the changes (for the worst) in open drug use, human suffering, unpleasant conditions, tents, and being harassed and yelled at randomly was an awful and sad experience. it's so painfully obvious that what has been attempted over the last decade is failing, and doubling down on more of it without any radical alterations is insane.

It is something I never really realized was so important until living in Japan. Things aren't perfect here, there are strange and dangerous people everywhere in the world, but I live in an urban area about the size of Nanaimo (which I also visited this year and also had junkies everywhere), but my children and I have thankfully never seen anyone shooting up, overdosing, or sprawled out asleep in garbage in any of the parks we frequent, or the train stations we use (also no one is loitering), or the walking and biking paths we walk along. It really adds a nice positive peace of mind when raising kids.

You want to encourage pedestrian use, biking, transit use, etc... one of the biggest keys is having a safe and clean environment to do so.
.

Ironic that we're discussing this so often on a forum like SSP these days. As this unpleasantness of the public realm takes over more and more parts of our cities, so grows the appeal of the private car as a safe bubble of isolation from all the chaos.

[cairnstone]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Define illegal drugs now in Canada.

That 1.5% in Japan will include weed.

I think more than 3% of Canadians use weed!!! And mushrooms. Almost everyone I knew in university used them. Most people I still know today in Vancouver are casual users of weed, mushrooms, acid, mdma, etc…

Also lots of common painkillers prescribed in Canada are counted as illegal drugs in Japan.

Was Oxy ever legal in Japan? As a good portion of the existing drug use is related to the fallout of Oxy. If you take that away it will definitely change the optics and numbers

[cairnstone]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

By no means do I think “putting people away” equates to jail.

I agree with you on more mental health facilities and hospitals for those incapable of taking care of themselves and rehab for other offenders.

I have been hearing about the reopening of Riverside for what seems like decades now. Was actually on the property two weeks ago. A silent as a ghost town. Didn’t see any sign of work being done to modernize the facility.

What is the actual plan? Is there an actual date / schedule set?

And yes, I know the idea that a one to one copy of the Dutch biking system is impossible, the point was that hasn’t stopped our governments from investigating their system and picking out certain aspects that might work / help our situation. (Such as the biking garages at train stations).

There is 2 new buildings that are open and operating. The old buildings wont be touched cost way to much to del with them

[chowhou]

I think it's a little important to note that Canada has a significant population of historically dispossessed and oppressed racial groups who to this day do not have the same standard of living as the Canadian average nor do they often receive support from their neighbouring communities. Those racial groups make up a significant percentage of Canadian poverty and drug use.

Japan doesn't have that problem to the same extent (do not look at Ainu poverty rates, Japan made sure there aren't that many )

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Ironic that we're discussing this so often on a forum like SSP these days. As this unpleasantness of the public realm takes over more and more parts of our cities, so grows the appeal of the private car as a safe bubble of isolation from all the chaos.

At least we are discussing this scourge instead of normalizing it as many would love to.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by cairnstone

Was Oxy ever legal in Japan? As a good portion of the existing drug use is related to the fallout of Oxy. If you take that away it will definitely change the optics and numbers

Not that I know of. There are very very few strong legal painkillers in Japan, especially over the counter, and to be honest, overall that is a good thing.

I believe some American CEO for Toyota or some other major company got in really big trouble for bringing some with her to Japan.