Halifax Transit

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

For instance, a bridge that is over 50 years old is not new. And, if in 50 years, you cannot build another crossing, you are not keeping up with the traffic. Especially when the other one was built only 15 years earlier.

A quaint local habit of calling a bridge the "new bridge" seems like a silly thing to get hung up on. FWIW, There is a plan in place to replace the Mackay in coming years. The Macdonald was reconfigured completly, starting in 2015 (look up "big lift").

I'm split on value of a third crossing, TBH. The Halifax side doesn't really have any traffic outflow options without major reconfiguration happening. In modern times we are looking at increasing transit, bike lanes, etc., so focus is drawn away from new projects that will introduce more car traffic. Moving forward, I think that transit should be improved to help decrease car traffic... the topic of this thread (amazingly).

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

How long have you lived there?
Where else have you lived?
My 80 year old father who lived most of his life in our hometown says things like that too. Doesn't mean he is right.

You don't seem to understand that I'm simply disagreeing with your statement, and suggesting that you visit Halifax again to check it out. Whatever your father thinks about your hometown is irrelevant.

Sorry that you didn't like it when you lived here. You certainly have a right to your opinion, but there are also many who live here -and have moved here in recent years- that really like the place. To each his own, though.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

I would not support a provincial agency to replace them as they are no better in in many cases even less responsive and more bureaucratic than HRM. But transit does need to be completely blown up, something I have been saying here for a long time. The organization needs a total restructure, the deadwood pruned, and new client-centric management brought in to ensure that it does not continue to exist just to satisfy its own workforce.

I appreciate your opinion regarding provincial bureaucracy vs municipal bureaucracy, but I respectfully disagree.

1) - If you really want to blow the whole thing up and start again, it will likely require a complete paradigm shift, including the creation of an entirely new managerial structure, and the ripping up of all current union contracts. This would be difficult to do while maintaining Halifax Transit as it's own entity. If you disbanded Halifax transit and created a new regional authority however, then anything is possible.
2) - A new integrated system including regional rail and a trolley system on the peninsula would likely meet with resistance from entrenched interests in Halifax Transit. If you eliminate Halifax Transit, then you eliminate those entrenched interests.
3) - A regional commuter rail system would extend beyond the boundaries of HRM. This would be better managed at the provincial level.
4) - Regional commuter rail would require serious negotiations with CNR. This would probably be better accomplished at the provincial level rather than the municipal level.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I appreciate your opinion regarding provincial bureaucracy vs municipal bureaucracy, but I respectfully disagree.

1) - If you really want to blow the whole thing up and start again, it will likely require a complete paradigm shift, including the creation of an entirely new managerial structure, and the ripping up of all current union contracts. This would be difficult to do while maintaining Halifax Transit as it's own entity. If you disbanded Halifax transit and created a new regional authority however, then anything is possible.
2) - A new integrated system including regional rail and a trolley system on the peninsula would likely meet with resistance from entrenched interests in Halifax Transit. If you eliminate Halifax Transit, then you eliminate those entrenched interests.
3) - A regional commuter rail system would extend beyond the boundaries of HRM. This would be better managed at the provincial level.
4) - Regional commuter rail would require serious negotiations with CNR. This would probably be better accomplished at the provincial level rather than the municipal level.

Well, I’m not advocating for HRM to run it either. It needs to be out of govt in terms of operational and strategy matters, just partially funded by them.

The CN problem is always going to be a problem in the absence of federal intervention. The province has no leverage with CN either.

[Phalanx]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

....
The problem is then you have the small town provincial agency. So, unless it is run by someone from one of the 3 largest urban centres in Canada, it won't work.

This is one of the single biggest issues with the way anything is run here, at the municipal and provincial levels (and it's not necessarily just a Halifax/NS problem). There's a lot of insular, parochial thinking.

There's either a reluctance to look at what other parts of the country and world are doing. When we DO measure ourselves against other places, it tends to only be when it's a favourable comparison so we can tell ourselves everything is fine. When we do actually try to do things, it's often a matter of reinventing the wheel instead of looking at what others have already done well and building on success and bringing in that established experience and expertise. Instead we have to learn everything the hard/expensive way (...like taking 12+ years to study and implement basic electronic fares...)

One of my big hopes with all the migration from other parts of Canada (and the world) is that we get some fresh blood injected into municipal/provincial politics and the civil service because very few people here (including myself and a lot of the other people on this board) are stepping up to do anything about it themselves beyond complaining. It'll take time, but maybe we'll have a less myopic vision for how things could be in a few years.

[Antigonish]

Damn, I showed up unannounced after a long absence coming in from the top ropes with a steel chair. This thread blew up thankfully.

Who is the current transit director? What was his prior experience? Imagine convincing someone like Andy Byford to come here and nuke everything to the ground and start over.

[someone123]

I don't know much about the structure of Halifax Transit but in a lot of places there is separation between regional transport planning and the groups that operate services like buses.

Cities are complicated and I wouldn't say Halifax is "small town" in most ways. If you look at private developments a lot of them are ambitious and the city is very worldly for its size. Some public areas like recreation, highways, or health care seem to be more in line with needs. Transit is one of the worst areas in that the city is growing a lot, relies a lot of transit, and there isn't much happening. The gap has grown in recent years. It wasn't as bad a decade ago when developments like the Bridge Terminal were happening during a generally lower growth period.

The Cushman Wakefield project for the West End with its underground bus loop and theoretical rail connection appears to be the most ambitious piece of transit infrastructure proposed right now. IMO it says something that a private development at a mall is more novel than the bus mall (with so-so intermodal connections) being developed by the municipality on the Cogswell lands. That project would have been a good chance to build an intermodal downtown hub. Imagine for example a North End streetcar loop with an underground portion downtown, maybe a South End rail extension, and an underground connection to a new ferry terminal.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Antigonish

Damn, I showed up unannounced after a long absence coming in from the top ropes with a steel chair. This thread blew up thankfully.

Who is the current transit director? What was his prior experience? Imagine convincing someone like Andy Byford to come here and nuke everything to the ground and start over.

His name is Dave Reage. He had 2 years as a transit planner with WSP in Toronto before joining Transit here 16 years ago and climbing their organizational ladder. Making over $200K/yr there now so he’s a lifer.

[Nouvellecosse]

It seems like the HRM policy approach started with a pragmatic "pick your battles" philosophy spurred by fatigue from lots of fights and backlash from the public. But then it moved to a "avoid any possibility of a battle" approach in which leaders show zero leadership. They tend to rely heavily on public surveys and consultations for decision making which sounds good, but the public isn't always an expert on planning and transportation and the responses aren't always representative of the public at large.

So without experts playing a leadership role and being willing to take on some fights, the defacto leaders are the NIMBYs and doomers who are the vocal minority. NIMBYs being those who oppose most change because of either their personal aesthetic and lifestyle tastes or fears (often unfounded) of what the change will lead to - in both cases without considering the needs of others. Doomers are those who can't deliver constructive criticism and instead conclude that every shortcoming is an unmitigated disaster, that our situation is uniquely bad, and that everyone involved in our system is lazy, corrupt and/or incompetent. Therefore nothing will ever change unless everyone involved is fired and replaced. Neither type of response contributes anything toward productive change.

Last winter I saw a speech Waye Mason gave at Dal. One of the things he mentioned is that people sometimes get frustrated with council for not being bold enough with progressive change. He countered that any change needs social buy in and that if leadership moves too quickly before people are ready it will lead to a backlash in which they vote for anti-development, anti-progress candidates. While I think this is true in the abstract, it really comes down to the specifics. It's easy to be overly timid out of fear of backlash and leave a lot of potential progress on the table.

[Keith P.]

If Mason is deemed worthy of giving speeches to Dal students, that explains a great deal about our newly-minted planners.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

I have long found the entire "new bridge" thing to be baffling. Unless you are over 60 years old you probably only remember Halifax having 2 harbor bridges, so it makes no sense, yet people continue to use this moniker. I have no idea why. It's not as if "MacKay" is some unpronounceable term.

The intransigence of HRM to the idea of a 3rd harbor crossing is a big drawback. I believe it was over a decade ago that HHB floated the idea of a 3rd harbor crossing in the south end connecting to Woodside. The ink was barely dry on the documents when the mayor immediately dismissed it by stating we did not need it, and it gained zero momentum as a result. There was no basis for such a statement other than a desire to avoid change and maintain the status quo, a typical small-town mindset. We are now paying for that move. The same can be said for the never-ending mismanagement of Transit. I would not support a provincial agency to replace them as they are no better and in many cases even less responsive and more bureaucratic than HRM. But transit does need to be completely blown up, something I have been saying here for a long time. The organization needs a total restructure, the deadwood pruned, and new client-centric management brought in to ensure that it does not continue to exist just to satisfy its own workforce.

This is what I am getting at. If this were one of the more major cities, a new crossing would have been done within the last50years. Instead, the city is in gridlock from a lack of it. So,why are we surprised we are paying like it is 50 years ago?

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

A quaint local habit of calling a bridge the "new bridge" seems like a silly thing to get hung up on. FWIW, There is a plan in place to replace the Mackay in coming years. The Macdonald was reconfigured completly, starting in 2015 (look up "big lift").

I'm split on value of a third crossing, TBH. The Halifax side doesn't really have any traffic outflow options without major reconfiguration happening. In modern times we are looking at increasing transit, bike lanes, etc., so focus is drawn away from new projects that will introduce more car traffic. Moving forward, I think that transit should be improved to help decrease car traffic... the topic of this thread (amazingly).

The existing Mackay bridge does not need replacement. There needs to be more crossings. Build the "Third Harbour crossing". Then tear down and replace the MacDonald bridge.

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

You don't seem to understand that I'm simply disagreeing with your statement, and suggesting that you visit Halifax again to check it out. Whatever your father thinks about your hometown is irrelevant.

Sorry that you didn't like it when you lived here. You certainly have a right to your opinion, but there are also many who live here -and have moved here in recent years- that really like the place. To each his own, though.

If they did a survey about whether Halifax was doing enough to be progressive into the future, I'd bet the majority would no think it is. Just like you you said my father's opinion was irrelevant, the same could be said about yours.

Originally Posted by Phalanx

This is one of the single biggest issues with the way anything is run here, at the municipal and provincial levels (and it's not necessarily just a Halifax/NS problem). There's a lot of insular, parochial thinking.

There's either a reluctance to look at what other parts of the country and world are doing. When we DO measure ourselves against other places, it tends to only be when it's a favourable comparison so we can tell ourselves everything is fine. When we do actually try to do things, it's often a matter of reinventing the wheel instead of looking at what others have already done well and building on success and bringing in that established experience and expertise. Instead we have to learn everything the hard/expensive way (...like taking 12+ years to study and implement basic electronic fares...)

One of my big hopes with all the migration from other parts of Canada (and the world) is that we get some fresh blood injected into municipal/provincial politics and the civil service because very few people here (including myself and a lot of the other people on this board) are stepping up to do anything about it themselves beyond complaining. It'll take time, but maybe we'll have a less myopic vision for how things could be in a few years.

It would be nice,but that fresh blood will get too tired of how things are that they will leave. It would be nic to hear the new head of the Halifax transit is the former head of Metrolinx, EXO, Translink, etc. Then we might see some changes.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Last winter I saw a speech Waye Mason gave at Dal. One of the things he mentioned is that people sometimes get frustrated with council for not being bold enough with progressive change. He countered that any change needs social buy in and that if leadership moves too quickly before people are ready it will lead to a backlash in which they vote for anti-development, anti-progress candidates. While I think this is true in the abstract, it really comes down to the specifics. It's easy to be overly timid out of fear of backlash and leave a lot of potential progress on the table.

The buy-in part has two sides, with political leaders in theory selling their priorities. Does the mayor have a website where he lists platform items? I mostly see "social media presence" that is a bunch of reactions to stuff.

Are there examples of Halifax or NS politicians who have taken on too much risk or were too ambitious and got voted out because of it? I wonder if part of it is that there are a lot of career politicians. To them, staying around for many terms may be more important than getting any agenda items done. You probably don't want 100% turnover in every election but also not 100% lifers.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

The existing Mackay bridge does not need replacement.

Yes it does. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scot...cdonald-mckay-plaza-tolls-toll-1.6814240

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

If they did a survey about whether Halifax was doing enough to be progressive into the future, I'd bet the majority would no think it is.

That's different than calling a city of 500,000 the same as a small town. But, whatever, the discussion has become silly.

FWIW, I would probably also answer that it's not doing enough.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Just like you you said my father's opinion was irrelevant, the same could be said about yours.

I should have been more clear. Your father's opinions about Thunder Bay or wherever would be irrelevant to a discussion about Halifax transit. If he has thoughts to share about Halifax transit, his opinions would be quite relevant to this thread. I'm sure, at 80 years young, he could enlighten all of us with some wisdom about life's trials and tribulations. I always have much respect for the older generations who have seen more and experienced more than most of us will ever realize.

Whether my opinions are irrelevant... maybe they are, but this is a discussion forum, so I'll continue to share them.

Anyhow... enough of that. It just clutters up the forum and detracts from the discussion.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by Arrdeeharharharbour

Note that not one of the 47 locations to buy tickets is at the airport. I can tell you from personal experience that once you find the bus stop, in spite of there being zero signage, on a cold early March night, the driver will not let you board with a $20.00 bill. You must have exact change or you will be left to freeze by Halifax Transit.

I used to work at Founders Square and bus passes were available at the convenience store on the Bedford Row level. One day I asked for a monthly pass and they said they were no longer being provided to them and no explanation was given to them of why that was the case. Can't imagine the frustration visitors must experience trying to board a mostly empty bus in HRM. Where are the preloaded day passes or tap? Halifax Transit should consider the 325,000 cruise ship passengers for 2023 as well as daily commuters when formulating a payment strategy. Time for a change from the change.

[Keith P.]

Keep in mind that it is the Amalgamated Transit Union that largely runs Transit, not the management. An old school chum of mine once reached the upper levels there, 3rd or 4th man on the totem pole, and told me some of the horror stories about trying to manage in what he called a tribal or gang atmosphere. He said the members really couldn’t be given more than token discipline for even major misbehaviour or non-performance. Anything they deemed too harsh would result in a grievance that would drag out forever with appeals and continuances, and eventually they just wore management down.

I remember he explained to me why they couldn’t operate a bus to beaches (Rainbow Haven I guess) on sunny summer days, because the collective agreement gave operators a 3-week advance notice to let the most senior people pick their favourite shifts. Since you didn’t want to run a bus to the beach every day in case it was cold or rainy, they couldn’t do it at all because they didn’t have the ability to do it only on beach days. Just asinine. The union runs the place.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by someone123

Are there examples of Halifax or NS politicians who have taken on too much risk or were too ambitious and got voted out because of it?

I would say that happened to both Donald Cameron and John Savage back in the ‘90s. Both tried reforming long-standing bad practices within the govt/ruling party and paid the price.

[Dartguard]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

I would say that happened to both Donald Cameron and John Savage back in the ‘90s. Both tried reforming long-standing bad practices within the govt/ruling party and paid the price.

Yet Savage broke the political tribalism of the Transportation department and paid for it with his ouster and Cameron at least started the twinning of the 104.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Yes it does. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scot...cdonald-mckay-plaza-tolls-toll-1.6814240

As MacKay Bridge nears end of its lifespan, N.S. eyes replacement or repair
It needs to be shut down and refurbished to last another 60 years. If it is just the decking like the other bridge, then they already have a method of doing it.

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

That's different than calling a city of 500,000 the same as a small town. But, whatever, the discussion has become silly.

FWIW, I would probably also answer that it's not doing enough.

A city of 500,000 acts like a village of 500.
I was there when they widened Chebucto from 2 lanes to 3. The media was all over the 'protests' to remove 5 trees. Acts like that and the media focusing on that are the problem. Halifax is a nice city, but it could be so much better if it acted like a city.

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I should have been more clear. Your father's opinions about Thunder Bay or wherever would be irrelevant to a discussion about Halifax transit. If he has thoughts to share about Halifax transit, his opinions would be quite relevant to this thread. I'm sure, at 80 years young, he could enlighten all of us with some wisdom about life's trials and tribulations. I always have much respect for the older generations who have seen more and experienced more than most of us will ever realize.

Whether my opinions are irrelevant... maybe they are, but this is a discussion forum, so I'll continue to share them.

Anyhow... enough of that. It just clutters up the forum and detracts from the discussion.

As we jokingly say, the other Bay - North Bay. The point I was making is that a lot of the older generation reminisce of olden days. Those days are long gone. While I respect the old people, their opinions are largely useless in today's world. Remember, he was of the days of plowing over everything. A good example of a Halifax thing is the Cogswell overpass.

Halifax needs to get with the times if it wants to continue to grow, without the congestion that it has that can only get worse. That includes modern contactless payment systems.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

As MacKay Bridge nears end of its lifespan, N.S. eyes replacement or repair
It needs to be shut down and refurbished to last another 60 years. If it is just the decking like the other bridge, then they already have a method of doing it.

"The MacKay was built with a different standard back in the '70s," said Wright, explaining that its deck would need to be made thicker. "Macdonald for instance, the bridge is a 14-millimetre deck and current Canadian code would need to see us replace the MacKay Bridge with a 14-millimetre deck."
"Unfortunately the supporting structures, the main cables, the towers, the cable vents are not designed to carry a 14-millimetre deck, so the rehab that we're looking at would need to accommodate that."

According to Wright, that would mean having to hang new, stronger main cables and building additional support towers before any work could begin on replacing the deck.

"That's a pretty significant project," said Wright. "So we also have to look at the other option, which is a replacement altogether of the bridge."
Wright said that may be the less expensive and less intrusive option for those who use the bridges to travel across Halifax harbour.

So we can spend less money to build a more robust bridge to modern standards, including any configuration that might suit future needs? And this will be less intrusive?

It needs to be replaced.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

A city of 500,000 acts like a village of 500.
I was there when they widened Chebucto from 2 lanes to 3. The media was all over the 'protests' to remove 5 trees. Acts like that and the media focusing on that are the problem. Halifax is a nice city, but it could be so much better if it acted like a city.

So protesting the cutting down of trees to facilitate an infrastructure poject means it's not acting like a city? Wow... then Toronto needs to stop acting like a small town...

Opposition is growing to a proposal by Metrolinx to cut down five trees on the grounds of one of the most historic public buildings in downtown Toronto, with one critic calling the plan "an affront to the city."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/metrolinx-trees-osgoode-hall-1.6660875

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

While I respect the old people, their opinions are largely useless in today's world.

Wow.

Anyhow... that's enough. I will no longer participate in this exchange. You can have the last word.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

So we can spend less money to build a more robust bridge to modern standards, including any configuration that might suit future needs? And this will be less intrusive?

It needs to be replaced.

The problem is, it will not be built for the future, but for yesterday. Built for the future would mean at least4 lanes per side, with 1 additional lane each side for transit/LRT. Most likely,it will only be 3 lanes aside.

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

So protesting the cutting down of trees to facilitate an infrastructure poject means it's not acting like a city? Wow... then Toronto needs to stop acting like a small town...


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/metrolinx-trees-osgoode-hall-1.6660875

Historic property vs side of the road on non historic property. I would never suggest that historic properties be ripped up. Besides, Halifax already did that with Africville.

[GTG_78]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

As MacKay Bridge nears end of its lifespan, N.S. eyes replacement or repair
It needs to be shut down and refurbished to last another 60 years. If it is just the decking like the other bridge, then they already have a method of doing it.

There was nothing simple about refurbishing the Macdonald, and there is a wholly different set of challenges to repairing the MacKay. You don't need to be an engineer or in road construction, but you really need to at least know what the underlying issues are before opining about how simple or difficult something will be.