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  #181  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2023, 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
Do you have any references to back up this statement or is this just your opinion? Both are valid, but it should be made clear (my interpretation is it is the latter, but I want to be sure).
References would be too strong of a word.

-My friend's husband was the bird expert that a neighbourhood lawyer paid to write a report outlining how the new hospital would affect the bird habitat (I read it, not super compelling IMO)

-There were also notable conflicts of interest on the committee that decided the new location that I have heard from patients. Essentially, people strongly encouraged to favour any of the options that move the Civic away from it's current location. I wonder what they will call the neighbourhood once their namesake is gone????

-This article from 2015 reviews some of the controversies at the time. It includes quotes from a Scottish researcher who was apparently contacted by a local university prof (and friend) and asked to express views against the move across the street.
https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-new...-plan-to-give-land-to-new-civic-hospital
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  #182  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2023, 11:54 PM
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References would be too strong of a word.

-My friend's husband was the bird expert that a neighbourhood lawyer paid to write a report outlining how the new hospital would affect the bird habitat (I read it, not super compelling IMO)

-There were also notable conflicts of interest on the committee that decided the new location that I have heard from patients. Essentially, people strongly encouraged to favour any of the options that move the Civic away from it's current location. I wonder what they will call the neighbourhood once their namesake is gone????

-This article from 2015 reviews some of the controversies at the time. It includes quotes from a Scottish researcher who was apparently contacted by a local university prof (and friend) and asked to express views against the move across the street.
https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-new...-plan-to-give-land-to-new-civic-hospital

I guess this is how a lot of decisions get made, but it is just a bit more painful when our city so badly needs a new hospital and we are 5-7 years behind when we should have been!
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  #183  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2023, 3:55 PM
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Originally Posted by AuxTown View Post
References would be too strong of a word.

-My friend's husband was the bird expert that a neighbourhood lawyer paid to write a report outlining how the new hospital would affect the bird habitat (I read it, not super compelling IMO)

-There were also notable conflicts of interest on the committee that decided the new location that I have heard from patients. Essentially, people strongly encouraged to favour any of the options that move the Civic away from it's current location. I wonder what they will call the neighbourhood once their namesake is gone????

-This article from 2015 reviews some of the controversies at the time. It includes quotes from a Scottish researcher who was apparently contacted by a local university prof (and friend) and asked to express views against the move across the street.
https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-new...-plan-to-give-land-to-new-civic-hospital

I guess this is how a lot of decisions get made, but it is just a bit more painful when our city so badly needs a new hospital and we are 5-7 years behind when we should have been!
Super random question. was this pic taken at the Civic?

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  #184  
Old Posted Aug 22, 2023, 11:00 PM
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https://twitter.com/grahamctv/status/1694121704715436055?s=20
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So a very #Ottawa situation: planning committee failed to notify @NCC_CCN and Ag Canada about a discussion of a condo proposal affecting the Experimental Farm. City now says it has to go back to same committee for a re-do delaying final decision at Council #ottnews
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  #185  
Old Posted Aug 23, 2023, 1:34 AM
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https://twitter.com/grahamctv/status/1694121704715436055?s=20
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So a very #Ottawa situation: planning committee failed to notify @NCC_CCN and Ag Canada about a discussion of a condo proposal affecting the Experimental Farm. City now says it has to go back to same committee for a re-do delaying final decision at Council #ottnews
I wondered why AAFC/Experimental Farm had not participated in the Planning Committee meeting, if they had concerns.
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  #186  
Old Posted Aug 23, 2023, 2:32 AM
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Originally Posted by waterloowarrior View Post
https://twitter.com/grahamctv/status/1694121704715436055?s=20
@grahamctv
So a very #Ottawa situation: planning committee failed to notify @NCC_CCN and Ag Canada about a discussion of a condo proposal affecting the Experimental Farm. City now says it has to go back to same committee for a re-do delaying final decision at Council #ottnews
Isn't the sign on the property and the fact that the agenda is published enough. It made the press ahead of time. If they were that concerned they would have looked at the documents and made comments ahead of time and I would have thought that the Community Association people would have wanted to collaborate with them if they sensed NCC and Ag Canada were in opposition. Surely there are people at the NCC who keep tabs on these kind of things.

Knowing the City's communication methods this doesn't surprise me at all.
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  #187  
Old Posted Aug 23, 2023, 3:01 AM
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Controversial Carling Avenue redevelopment project going back to planning committee
Author of the article:Staff Reporter
Published Aug 22, 2023

Ottawa city council will have to return the issue of a zoning bylaw amendment for a controversial redevelopment project on Carling Avenue to its planning committee after it was determined that the required notice of a public meeting wasn’t given to Agriculture and Agrifood Canada and the National Capital Commission.

A memo to Mayor Mark Sutcliffe and councillors on Tuesday evening from Don Herweyer, interim general manager of planning, real estate and economic development for the city, said a notice of motion would be brought forward at Wednesday’s council meeting “to address the need to return the item to Planning and Housing Committee and reissue the notice of public meeting in accordance with the Planning Act.”

The Planning and Housing Committee approved a zoning bylaw amendment allowing 16- and 27-storey towers in place of an existing eight-storey building at 1081 Carling, across the road from the Central Experimental Farm, at a meeting on Aug. 16.

Herweyer’s memo said that meeting had served as the statutory public meeting on the matter, but following the session it was determined that the official notice of public meeting had not been provided to all interested parties in accordance with requirements of the Official Plan and the Planning Act.

Specifically, the memo added, that referred to Agriculture and Agrifood Canada and the NCC.

The motion for council Wednesday will also result in the provision of a new notice and publication of a staff report “to ensure that proper notification takes place in accordance with the Planning Act,” the memo said.
The next planning committee meeting set for Sept. 20 will constitute the statutory public meeting for the application, and a new recommendation will be put forth by the committee, it added.

In addition, Herweyer’s memo said, the city was now in receipt of a revised Cultural Heritage Impact Statement related to the bylaw amendment application “which provides updated analysis of the potential impacts of the proposed development on the heritage value and character defining elements of the Central Experimental Farm National Historic Site of Canada. Staff have reviewed the updated CHIS and have determined that it meets the city’s requirements.”

The redevelopment proposal from Taggart Realty Management with Fotenn Planning + Design at 1081 Carling would create 410 residential units.

The proposal has been controversial, with 160 residents attending a virtual public meeting and 14 delegations appearing before the planning committee on Aug. 16. Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada had previously expressed concern to the city that the shadows cast by the development would affect a plot of land used for research. Meanwhile, some councillors feared approving the project could set a precedent for upcoming highrise developments around the experimental farm’s perimeter.

City staff had recommended that the committee approve the zoning bylaw amendment for the project. At that Aug. 16 meeting, the committee heard that the project met the goals of the city’s official plan and an analysis of the shadow cast by the towers on the Central Experimental Farm, based on the city’s terms of reference, concluded those shadows wouldn’t exceed the criteria for “open spaces” reserved for scientific, educational and cultural purposes.
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  #188  
Old Posted Aug 23, 2023, 1:11 PM
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Carling towers sent back to committee after feds snubbed
Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada raised concerns about shadows over research fields at Experiental Farm

Arthur White-Crummey · CBC News
Posted: Aug 22, 2023 8:27 PM EDT | Last Updated: 37 minutes ago


An application to allow two towers just north of the Central Experimental Farm will have to go back to committee for a second look, after city staff warned that Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada and the National Capital Commission never got the required notice about a meeting last week.

Council's planning and housing committee voted in favour of the application from Taggart Realty Management to build towers of 27 and 16 storeys across from the farm on Carling Avenue.

It was set to go to council on Wednesday for final approval of the increased height limits and zoning changes.

But a memo from the city's interim general manager of planning, real estate and economic development urged councillors to send the matter back to the committee to comply with provincial law.

"Agriculture and Agri-food Canada and the National Capital Commission did not receive proper notice," Don Herweyer wrote in the memo.

"To ensure the integrity of the process, City Council are being asked to pass a motion to have the item return to Planning and Housing Committee along with the provision of a new Notice and publication of the staff report to ensure that proper notification takes place in accordance with the Planning Act."

Herweyer called that a "need" under the Planning Act, which is a provincial law, and under the city's own official plan. According to an additional memo previewing council business for Wednesday, Coun. Jeff Leiper is planning to move a motion referring the matter back to the committee for Sept. 20.

Agriculture Canada criticized the proposed towers in a letter this spring, saying they would cast shadows over fields on the farm and render them unusable for most research, including studies on making crops more resilient to climate change.

The local community association has also raised concerns about traffic and transition to the low-rise neighbourhood surrounding the site of the proposed towers. But while community association members joined a long list of delegations to last week's committee meeting, Agriculture Canada representatives were nowhere to be seen.

While it voted in favour of the application by eight votes to two, the committee also voted to require a new cultural heritage impact statement for the project to specifically address shadowing concerns. That statement is now ready.

Prepared by Commonwealth Historic Resource Management (CHRM) for Taggart, it asserts that shadows from the buildings on the experimental farm wouldn't exceed the city standards for open spaces.

Those standards require that new net shadows "must not result in an average of 50 per cent of any public space being cast in shadow for five or more hourly interval times."

CHRM said the proposed towers would meet that standard, and shadows would be generally limited to two hours from 4 p.m. to 6 p.m. on the September date it analyzed.

Taggart representatives also argued that the project met city standards for open spaces at last week's committee meeting. Critics countered that the experimental farm is more than an open space, but a vital research centre of significant scientific and historic value.

Those critics, including Leslie Maitland of Heritage Ottawa, did not think the standards were the appropriate gauge for assessing the project. She requested an amendment to the official plan to recognize the farm's unique value.

The CHRM statement also argued that the shadow impact is not new, since the farm once had a belt of trees to the north that also cast a shadow over the farm.

But scientists at Agriculture Canada have been adamant, including in interviews with CBC, that the shadowing from the towers would introduce a new variable into their experiments that would make the data difficult to interpret and impossible to apply to real world farms.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/carling-avenue-towers-experimental-farm-agriculture-1.6944465
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  #189  
Old Posted Aug 23, 2023, 3:11 PM
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Yeah, this is a mess. The NCC and Agriculture should have been speaking to the City years ago when tit became clear we were transitioning into a new era of residential towers.

As pointed out, this has been all over the news. It's been on Devapps for two years. Someone at the NCC or Agriculture should have known this was coming. City should have contacted them, but at the same time, this was not a secret.

This sounds like it should be a meeting between City, NCC and Agriculture officials, not another debate at Committee.
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  #190  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2023, 12:32 PM
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Back to Planning Committee this week. From Jeff Leiper's newsletter.

Quote:
We'll have a high-profile Planning and Housing Committee meeting on Wednesday September 20 as the two-tower proposal for 1081 Carling comes back for a re-do. As chair of the committee I'll be allowing delegations to make any arguments they wish with respect to that re-zoning, but I've asked parties to consider focusing on the new documentation related to shadow impact on the Farm's heritage value as a research facility.
https://mailchi.mp/9a4f4b3758e7/kitchissippi-weekly-email-275-addendum-8369128?e=74d6b057d5
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  #191  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2023, 1:00 PM
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It would be hilarious if they came back with a 50 story point tower with the same number of units and a third of the footprint of the two stump proposal and said 'we have reduced shadow time to a third of the previous proposal '.
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  #192  
Old Posted Sep 19, 2023, 2:30 AM
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Super random question. was this pic taken at the Civic?

Yes, I think that is the very ornamented (and hidden) original entrance of the Civic at the top of those not-so-accessible stairs out front. It's part of the geriatrics department on A1/B1.
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  #193  
Old Posted Sep 19, 2023, 3:24 AM
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Yes, I think that is the very ornamented (and hidden) original entrance of the Civic at the top of those not-so-accessible stairs out front. It's part of the geriatrics department on A1/B1.
Beauty! Lots that should be preserved inside and out. Too bad that entrance isn't still accessible to the public, though I get it since it's not, well, accessible, which is crazy for a hospital, even in the 20s*.

I miss the old yellow tiles in the retail tunnel. The modern beige is just

*Even my Doctor's office was built in the 70s or 80s by the Family Doctor owner and you have to go up the stairs to the office, or down the stairs to the pharmacy. No elevator.
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  #194  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2023, 1:35 PM
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City needs to look at balance of highrise development and Experimental Farm research
Towers may encircle research farm as transit corridors get developed

Matthew Kupfer · CBC News
Posted: Sep 20, 2023 4:00 AM EDT | Last Updated: 3 hours ago


City officials and Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada say there needs to be a broader discussion and debate about the growing number of highrise developments that could encircle the Central Experimental Farm and how they affect the viability of research at the site.

The debate has intensified with the proposal for two towers, one 16 and the other 27 storeys, at 1081 Carling Ave. Local developer Taggart Realty Management said they would provide 350 rental apartments, potentially including affordable units.

A separate application from Theberge Homes that proposes three towers — two 24 and one 32 storeys — at 780 Baseline Rd. is winding its way through the planning process.

Coun. Jeff Leiper, chair of the planning committee, said people want to have a larger discussion about how future growth along these transit corridors will affect the farm.

However, he said, the current official plan doesn't limit height for the sake of the farm but the city could create a secondary plan if Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada (AAFC) laid out the thinking that could justify those kinds of restrictions.

"I don't think that's a productive discussion with the farm until we have a well-considered, modern, up-to-date document from them — thinking from them — that describes exactly what the role of the farm is going to be within their network of research facilities," Leiper said.

"I'm interested to see whether there is a compromise between the heights that would be contemplated by our official plan today versus the research needs of the farm."

Coun. Riley Brockington, whose River ward encompasses the Central Experimental Farm, said given the importance of agricultural research at the site, the city needs to make sure these proposals aren't handled as "one offs."

"This is in the centre of the city. I think there are a lot of people who have a lot of different ideas of what this land could be used for. But, at the end of the day, agriculture research is very important," Brockington said.

"The corridors that we're talking about really should have density. They're close to rapid transit, they're going to be close to LRT stations."

Brockington said he hopes there will be more clarity when AAFC attends Wednesday's planning and housing committee meeting, which will be considering the 1081 Carling Ave. proposal again.

Joey Theberge, of Theberge Homes, said he has tried to adapt his proposal to minimize shadows by shrinking the footprint of the tallest tower and trying to angle the buildings.

"Our shadow analysis has shown that the impacts we're going to create are more in the winter months.… Our main highest-point tower is more of a square pin tower now, rather than a flat wall to try to minimize any of those impacts," Theberge said.

"The benefits far outreach any of the negative impacts that would have by bringing that kind of density to this area."

He said he thinks proposals should be considered on a case-by-case basis and his is bolstered by the proximity to future bus-rapid transit and the need for rental units.

Pascal Michel, AAFC's director general for science and technology in the Ontario-Quebec region, said he found the adjustments on the Baseline proposal to be minimal so far, but he does think compromise is possible.

"No building would be best. But we do understand that there are probably ways to build those buildings with minimal impact for the land," he said. "It's a balancing of top-of-the-mind challenges."

Michel said research at the farm is at the centre of Canada's agricultural sector adapting to climate change, environmental impacts and providing food security.

He said shadows cast by proposed towers around the farm would introduce variability to existing research projects and diminish the continued value of the farm as a model of how Canadian farmers' fields work.

"We are expecting that these are not the last files that we're going to be dealing with. Our perspective on this is holistic," Michel said.

"We need to not only look at the immediate impact of those individual projects, we need to look at the foundational and core function of the Central Experimental Farm and how all of this impacts at once our ability to do research here."

Committee chair Leiper notes the 1081 Carling Ave. proposal succeeded the last time it was at committee. It's returning because city staff realized AAFC had not been notified of the meeting, Leiper said.

The meeting is scheduled for 9:30 a.m. Wednesday.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/central-experimental-farm-tower-proposals-1.6971369
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  #195  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2023, 4:55 PM
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I sincerely believe this entire situation is a bullshit NIMBY agenda being pushed by the neighborhood, and council is pandering to them. We haven't heard a representative from the farm definitively say these buildings will negatively affect research, just that it's possible.
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  #196  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2023, 5:25 PM
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That is exactly what the AgCanada reps said this morning before Planning Committee: that the towers would have significantly, costly and ongoing negative impacts on research at the farm. Interesting discussion. Report passed. This is going to Court and not just the OLT, because the feds indicated they would possibly be seeking compensation if the proposal passed, and I don't think the OLT is the correct forum for that. I assume it would be the Ontario Court. Feds indicated they are open to discussing options with the City and developper. In response to a question from Committee, the developper said they haven't spoken to the feds because they feel that the only framework that applies in this case is the Planning Act and Official Plan, and that the concerns raised by AgCanada fall outside this framework and therefore are not relevant. Knowing this is going to get tied up in the Courts, I can't believe the developper won't want to try to come to some sort of compromise. This could tie up other similar proposals around the farm while all this is resolved.
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  #197  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2023, 5:30 PM
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Well there you have it... I'll be damned, 5 minutes of lost twilight on a field for a couple of months a year really does have an effect I guess.
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  #198  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2023, 6:04 PM
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Well there you have it... I'll be damned, 5 minutes of lost twilight on a field for a couple of months a year really does have an effect I guess.
Yep it's going to be great if Ag Canada wins, just can't wait for all those using for material loss over shadows on their yards, or their solar panels, it etc. /S
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  #199  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2023, 7:00 PM
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That is exactly what the AgCanada reps said this morning before Planning Committee: that the towers would have significantly, costly and ongoing negative impacts on research at the farm. Interesting discussion. Report passed. This is going to Court and not just the OLT, because the feds indicated they would possibly be seeking compensation if the proposal passed, and I don't think the OLT is the correct forum for that. I assume it would be the Ontario Court. Feds indicated they are open to discussing options with the City and developper. In response to a question from Committee, the developper said they haven't spoken to the feds because they feel that the only framework that applies in this case is the Planning Act and Official Plan, and that the concerns raised by AgCanada fall outside this framework and therefore are not relevant. Knowing this is going to get tied up in the Courts, I can't believe the developper won't want to try to come to some sort of compromise. This could tie up other similar proposals around the farm while all this is resolved.
I think today's discussion was mostly pointless. You had the developer unleashing a landscape architect with no expertise in agriculture research share his opinion about how the shadowing would not have a significant impact. You had more NIMBYs using the Farm as a crutch argument against the proposal.

We did finally have a delegation from Agriculture Canada proving a definitive response to the question at hand.

It's frustrating that it took this long for the Feds and City to sit down and have a discussion about this. Lawyers should not be involved in this. It seems like this should not be a matter of opinion, but of scientific facts. Break down the requirements of the Farm behind closed doors, get the NCC to implement iron clad restrictions. Then there's the question of the developers, but they did probably overpay based on what they thought they could get, and not what's actually zoned (yes, yes, OP and all, but not everything supports what they want).

Ultimately, the Farm should move or shift to an urban farming research facility. It might be worth putting a moratorium on any new developments adjacent to the Farm until they've completed their current research (if that's even possible) and shifted to an actual rural site.

Once the Farm moves its rural agricultural research, then the developers can go nutz.
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  #200  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2023, 7:05 PM
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I think both the City and Agriculture Canada, and to a lesser extent, the developers, all dropped the ball on this one. It's time to stop playing the blame game and come up with a solution.
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