PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread X

[PurpleWhiteOut]

Originally Posted by allovertown

The entire national park is a scam perpetrated by "Big Brick Wall."

It's not just Independence Mall that is surrounded by Brick walls either. The blocks between chestnut and walnut and 3rd and 5th are basically entirely bounded by either Brick walls or vacant historic homes that the park service doesn't have the staff to allow visitors to enter them.

The whole historic area is a tragic disaster of urban planning of nearly unparalleled nature.

It's a shame it's in the hands of the federal government/NPS too, because they've obviously had no interest in the space. It's a shame what happened, but it's even worse that it's still just an empty lawn when it could be full of trees and monuments, fountains, benches etc. It would be nice if they had plans for 2026

[BroadandMarket]

While I'm definitely not thrilled about the planning/design of the Independence Mall and lawn areas around it, I'll give them credit for at least maintaining it. The grass is always cut, there is never any trash, brick sidewalks, no graffiti, no broken benches and no homeless camping. That goes for all of the areas behind Second National Bank, Carpenter's Hall, 18th Century Garden, Rose Garden, Magnolia Garden, Merchant Exchange Building Etc. If these areas were city maintained, they would be terrible.

Look at I-95 Park where the Scottish/Irish memorial statues are. There is constantly people camping and shooting up, leaving needles, needle caps and trash all over. It'll be a lot better when it actually connects to the waterfront with the Penn's Landing park.

[jaysb]

Originally Posted by PurpleWhiteOut

It's a shame it's in the hands of the federal government/NPS too, because they've obviously had no interest in the space. It's a shame what happened, but it's even worse that it's still just an empty lawn when it could be full of trees and monuments, fountains, benches etc. It would be nice if they had plans for 2026

The declaration house at 7th and chestnut absolutely cannot remain as is for 2026. How embarassing will that be , esp if the greyhound stop is still there. I have not heard of any plans for it (not that I’m paying too close attention ). What a joke.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by BroadandMarket

While I'm definitely not thrilled about the planning/design of the Independence Mall and lawn areas around it, I'll give them credit for at least maintaining it. The grass is always cut, there is never any trash, brick sidewalks, no graffiti, no broken benches and no homeless camping. That goes for all of the areas behind Second National Bank, Carpenter's Hall, 18th Century Garden, Rose Garden, Magnolia Garden, Merchant Exchange Building Etc. If these areas were city maintained, they would be terrible.

Look at I-95 Park where the Scottish/Irish memorial statues are. There is constantly people camping and shooting up, leaving needles, needle caps and trash all over. It'll be a lot better when it actually connects to the waterfront with the Penn's Landing park.

Nah bullshit. They do the bare minimum. The grass is cut but there are a ton of raised flower beds in the area that are filled with enormous weeds. Plenty of city parks look better.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by jaysb

The declaration house at 7th and chestnut absolutely cannot remain as is for 2026. How embarassing will that be , esp if the greyhound stop is still there. I have not heard of any plans for it (not that I’m paying too close attention ). What a joke.

*7th and market and basically across the street from the empty Declaration house is the former Atwater Kent museum surrounded by a chain link fence which is filled with garbage and weeds.

Their website says there are no plans for reopening Declaration house. Overall I'd say INHP hasn't looked this bad since the early 90s.... And it never looked great.

I've been saying Philly is back all summer. Street activity is great in so many neighborhoods. But the national park didn't seem to be along for the ride. Looks desolate compared to just a few summers ago. Tourism seems slow up rebound.

[TonyTone]

Anyone know why and what year they removed the fountain, trees, and everything else?

The pic on the right looks much more pleasant than the current one which is the middle one.

[towerpower123]

^^^ Imagine bragging about history by removing so many historic buildings to make an empty park, especially when many of the houses were actual significant historic sites.

[Gatorade_Jim]

Originally Posted by allovertown

*7th and market and basically across the street from the empty Declaration house is the former Atwater Kent museum surrounded by a chain link fence which is filled with garbage and weeds.

Their website says there are no plans for reopening Declaration house. Overall I'd say INHP hasn't looked this bad since the early 90s.... And it never looked great.

I've been saying Philly is back all summer. Street activity is great in so many neighborhoods. But the national park didn't seem to be along for the ride. Looks desolate compared to just a few summers ago. Tourism seems slow up rebound.

Looks like the data backs that up: https://irma.nps.gov/Stats/SSRSReports/P...%20-%20Last%20Calendar%20Year)?Park=INDE

2022 was almost 2M visitors under 2019. I'm very interested to see the 2023 numbers when they come out.

[Mr Saturn64]

Originally Posted by Gatorade_Jim

Looks like the data backs that up: https://irma.nps.gov/Stats/SSRSReports/P...%20-%20Last%20Calendar%20Year)?Park=INDE

2022 was almost 2M visitors under 2019. I'm very interested to see the 2023 numbers when they come out.

What happened in 1987? That's one hell of a number.

[Jayfar]

Originally Posted by Mr Saturn64

What happened in 1987? That's one hell of a number.

Constitution Bicentennial. Advance planning for the months-long We The People 200 celebration was in a dismal state until Mayor Goode put Willard Rouse in charge of the whole shebang. The rest is history, great success by most measures.

Rouse Takes Command Of ‘We The People 200’ - Daily News, 3/9/1987

Constitution Day September 17 - full page ad - Inquirer, 9/13/1987

[TK2001]

^
September 1987, also when William Penn was revealed as the scaffolding covering him was taken down. Just in time for the events

[Jayfar]

Originally Posted by TK2001

^
September 1987, also when William Penn was revealed as the scaffolding covering him was taken down. Just in time for the events

The reopening of the refurbished Lit Brothers as Mellon Independence Center also happened that summer. The We The People 200 events ran all through the summer, culminating in the grand finale Constitution Day on September 17th. All in all a very festive year for Philadelphia! I ran a small newsstand nearby at 6th & Walnut at the time and the frequent fife & drum processions every day were driving me crazy. ;-)

[TK2001]

Don't forget the lighting of the Ben Franklin Bridge too! Unfortunately, One Liberty wasn't lit until December 2nd

[TK2001]

Philadelphia skyline by Philly SkyGuy, on Flickr

[Nanyika]

Originally Posted by TonyTone

Anyone know why and what year they removed the fountain, trees, and everything else?

The pic on the right looks much more pleasant than the current one which is the middle one.

Originally, the Mall was designed by the city, and as I recall, managed (or at least funded) by the state. I remember how it was presented in the 1950s as a tremendous civic accomplishment. The National Park Service took it over in the 1970s. The Mall was redesigned and reconstructed starting in about 2000.

I liked aspects of the old design, such as the central fountain on Market Street. The photo on the right shows the Mall during the 1976 Bicentennial summer, when a temporary tent theatre was erected on the block north of Market; that was a beautiful addition.

I think that in general the current, more informal, design is brighter and more successful than the old version — at least, on the block between Market and Chestnut. And I like the way the ground now gradually rises to a grassy hill on the northern block (covering the underground parking garage). Nevertheless, the new version of the Mall has a great many faults.

For example, the new buildings (Visitors' Center, Liberty Bell Pavilion, etc.) are unimaginative and create a solid wall along 6th St. The slavery memorial at the President’s House is dull and uninviting. There are no trees or shade on the western edge; even people lining up for the Liberty Bell often have to stand in the sun or rain. The cafe, which is usually closed, is hidden and out of the way. The restrooms are poorly located at the busy corner of 5th & Chestnut; their blank walls block the view of the Mall and Independence Hall, and they often smell. So, I think the redesigned version could use some redesigning.

[Gatorade_Jim]

Originally Posted by Nanyika

Originally, the Mall was designed by the city, and as I recall, managed (or at least funded) by the state. I remember how it was presented in the 1950s as a tremendous civic accomplishment. The National Park Service took it over in the 1970s. The Mall was redesigned and reconstructed starting in about 2000.

I liked aspects of the old design, such as the central fountain on Market Street. The photo on the right shows the Mall during the 1976 Bicentennial summer, when a temporary tent theatre was erected on the block north of Market; that was a beautiful addition.

I think that in general the current, more informal, design is brighter and more successful than the old version — at least, on the block between Market and Chestnut. And I like the way the ground now gradually rises to a grassy hill on the northern block (covering the underground parking garage). Nevertheless, the new version of the Mall has a great many faults.

For example, the new buildings (Visitors' Center, Liberty Bell Pavilion, etc.) are unimaginative and create a solid wall along 6th St. The slavery memorial at the President’s House is dull and uninviting. There are no trees or shade on the western edge; even people lining up for the Liberty Bell often have to stand in the sun or rain. The cafe, which is usually closed, is hidden and out of the way. The restrooms are poorly located at the busy corner of 5th & Chestnut; their blank walls block the view of the Mall and Independence Hall, and they often smell. So, I think the redesigned version could use some redesigning.

Does anyone on here recall the condition of the buildings/area prior to the malls construction? I know it was awhile ago, so maybe not, but I'd love to hear what the area was like before.

[MyDadBuiltThat]

Originally Posted by Gatorade_Jim

Does anyone on here recall the condition of the buildings/area prior to the malls construction? I know it was awhile ago, so maybe not, but I'd love to hear what the area was like before.

My Dad, who worked all over the city, told me that it was in really bad shape. Buildings in poor shape. A lot of dirty businesses, some still using the river, which was also in terrible condition. When I would talk about the loss of history, he tried to get me understand how bad it was and that it was in such bad shape you just couldn't imagine turning into a pleasant historical area.

[PhillyPDX]

Originally Posted by MyDadBuiltThat

My Dad, who worked all over the city, told me that it was in really bad shape. Buildings in poor shape. A lot of dirty businesses, some still using the river, which was also in terrible condition. When I would talk about the loss of history, he tried to get me understand how bad it was and that it was in such bad shape you just couldn't imagine turning into a pleasant historical area.

From a personal family friend that was a very important person into preservation of the area during NPS development, apparently it's a miracle as many original buildings were saved as ended up being saved. It was a big fight for preservationists. So keep in mind, it could be a LOT worse.

[MyDadBuiltThat]

Originally Posted by PhillyPDX

From a personal family friend that was a very important person into preservation of the area during NPS development, apparently it's a miracle as many original buildings were saved as ended up being saved. It was a big fight for preservationists. So keep in mind, it could be a LOT worse.

We owe so much to the few people who valued the older buildings and had vision for what they could be again. And were willing to put in the years of work to make it happen. Family joke - our business was offered three Society Hill townhomes by a contractor who was short on cash to pay us for other work. We said no. Who would ever want them. Sigh.

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by Nanyika

Originally, the Mall was designed by the city, and as I recall, managed (or at least funded) by the state. I remember how it was presented in the 1950s as a tremendous civic accomplishment. The National Park Service took it over in the 1970s. The Mall was redesigned and reconstructed starting in about 2000.

I liked aspects of the old design, such as the central fountain on Market Street. The photo on the right shows the Mall during the 1976 Bicentennial summer, when a temporary tent theatre was erected on the block north of Market; that was a beautiful addition.

I think that in general the current, more informal, design is brighter and more successful than the old version — at least, on the block between Market and Chestnut. And I like the way the ground now gradually rises to a grassy hill on the northern block (covering the underground parking garage). Nevertheless, the new version of the Mall has a great many faults.

For example, the new buildings (Visitors' Center, Liberty Bell Pavilion, etc.) are unimaginative and create a solid wall along 6th St. The slavery memorial at the President’s House is dull and uninviting. There are no trees or shade on the western edge; even people lining up for the Liberty Bell often have to stand in the sun or rain. The cafe, which is usually closed, is hidden and out of the way. The restrooms are poorly located at the busy corner of 5th & Chestnut; their blank walls block the view of the Mall and Independence Hall, and they often smell. So, I think the redesigned version could use some redesigning.

I just don't feel that the new era park is better than the 76 version or even before that.

The fact that they removed all of the trees as well as the fountains, and left just an empty field thats usually 95% empty other than big crowds waiting in line, and events was just poor planning, and if the removal of trees, and benches and fountains was a safety reason due to 9/11, ok I can respect that due to the time, but even the 9/11 memorial has 100+ trees, and more now they could have easily refined the park over the years and added on to it.

Fortunately since it's a blank slate it can be added upon and improved.

That 76 version with the fountain and tent looks amazing, If that was still around it would be a way better place to chill at that Love Park, it would be a known destination, however it is not because it is just a field in front of one of the most historical important places in the USA.

Originally Posted by MyDadBuiltThat

My Dad, who worked all over the city, told me that it was in really bad shape. Buildings in poor shape. A lot of dirty businesses, some still using the river, which was also in terrible condition. When I would talk about the loss of history, he tried to get me understand how bad it was and that it was in such bad shape you just couldn't imagine turning into a pleasant historical area.

I just don't buy that, maybe if you said the political will and money wasn't there to rehabilitate the area was the case then I can see that, however anything can be fixed as you see examples of 100+ year old structures being rehabbed, and transformed before our eyes now.

There's no way those buildings around the Original capital weren't historical in some way throughout the decades, I mean this was all in the middle of the start of America basically, that whole area should have been preserved.

Originally Posted by PhillyPDX

From a personal family friend that was a very important person into preservation of the area during NPS development, apparently it's a miracle as many original buildings were saved as ended up being saved. It was a big fight for preservationists. So keep in mind, it could be a LOT worse.

All it takes is effort, and I mean the worse did happen, the area was literally Razed, Flattened, Urban renewed.