Kanata LRT EA - Bayshore to Palladium

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by SkeggsEggs

Can't find the slideshow on the city website for the EA, but I did find it on Stittsville Central, I am on mobile so somebody else have to work some magic: https://stittsvillecentral.ca/notebook-k...-study-will-look-at-three-route-options/

Ah cm'on!! You're freakin' kidding. Why the hell would they waste our time and money on studying corridors 5 and 13!? We're not going to build a proper rapid transit system for the 200,000 who live in the 8 square kilometers downtown, but hey, let's blow our money to serve the 30,000 who live in sprawling, car-dependent Stittville or maybe the Kanata North parking lots and wetlands.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

This I agree with. We have been good at eliminating future possibilities like connecting the Trillium Line to the Confederation Line.

... converting the SE Transitway, converting the Greberized rail lines to transit use, etc., etc.

[AndyMEng]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

... converting the SE Transitway, converting the Greberized rail lines to transit use, etc., etc.

I don't understand why the lines can't have multiple endings? Stockholm, London, other major cities have LRT lines that split into several final destinations. It makes so much more sense to have less service at the ends (split into 1/3rd of the trains) and more in the core?

Why can't we have a part of all those options:
1. Go up March road, end at Dunrobin road with a park'n'ride.
2. Follow the trans canada trail, pick up Bells Corners, and extend to Stittsville Main (and then maybe 'gasp' Carleton Place??)
3. Go down the highway to Tanger so people can get their crappy shopping on.

Bayshore or 'sigh' Moodie... becomes the hub of all three lines.

Same with East, why can't we have one line down the highway to Trim, one line partially down Innes, and one line that splits to Montreal Road East?

All surface routes on large suburban streets/bush that can be built for the minimum cost compared to our downtown construction. In 100 years the densification will account for the construction now.

[Dado]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Ah cm'on!! You're freakin' kidding. Why the hell would they waste our time and money on studying corridors 5 and 13!? We're not going to build a proper rapid transit system for the 200,000 who live in the 8 square kilometers downtown, but hey, let's blow our money to serve the 30,000 who live in sprawling, car-dependent Stittville or maybe the Kanata North parking lots and wetlands.

Originally Posted by AndyMEng

I don't understand why the lines can't have multiple endings? Stockholm, London, other major cities have LRT lines that split into several final destinations. It makes so much more sense to have less service at the ends (split into 1/3rd of the trains) and more in the core?

Why can't we have a part of all those options:
1. Go up March road, end at Dunrobin road with a park'n'ride.
2. Follow the trans canada trail, pick up Bells Corners, and extend to Stittsville Main (and then maybe 'gasp' Carleton Place??)
3. Go down the highway to Tanger so people can get their crappy shopping on.

Bayshore or 'sigh' Moodie... becomes the hub of all three lines.

Same with East, why can't we have one line down the highway to Trim, one line partially down Innes, and one line that splits to Montreal Road East?

All surface routes on large suburban streets/bush that can be built for the minimum cost compared to our downtown construction. In 100 years the densification will account for the construction now.

I'd like to know why we're sending this to the CTC, at all, especially in light of the Sens probable move to LeBreton. Kanata's biggest problem is that someone (Teron?) long ago had the not-so-bright idea to try to make a "town centre" straddling a freeway. We've been wedded to this absurd idea ever since. I doubt it will ever work.

Kanata's second major problem is that having put a few facts-on-the-ground to match their absurd town centre straddling a freeway plan, they nevertheless didn't really try to make a go of it. So instead of concentrating all development along the freeway corridor, they went both north and south along the edge of the Greenbelt. Note that very little of Kanata's employment, and less still of its tech employment, is located along the Queensway (there's a bit in the Terry Fox-Palladium area, but that's about it). An LRT line to the CTC along the Queensway would see very little reverse flow transit use. In contrast, bus routes like the #101 (or whatever it is now) do actually see a fair bit of use.

At this point, I think they should just abandon the entire town centre straddling a freeway thing. Accordingly, don't send LRT down the freeway. In general, putting light rail down expressways and freeways, while oh-so-tempting to transportation engineers, doesn't do much to support development intensification because you're working with an inherently hostile environment with lots of land that is effectively sterilized from urban development.

Instead of one LRT corridor, they should have two: one going northwest, roughly following the old Renfrew Sub (and I mean the multiuser path, to bring it closer to DND) to Kanata North, then once past Teron head northwest along either March or Legget (with the removal of a few buildings on Carling). If Legget, it can transition to March near Terry Fox and carry on northwestwards indefinitely. There's so much asphalt in this area that redevelopment over the coming decades becomes quite plausible.

The other corridor can head along the old CPR Carleton Place Sub/TransCanada Trail past Bells Corners at least as far as Robertson Rd, and then continue southwest along either Robertson or the old railway corridor to Stittsville and beyond. Building would be easier in the latter with more opportunities for TOD just east and south of Stittsville.

I think what aggrieves me most about all these studies though is the fact that they keep on planning these routes as fully grade-separated. We're out in the suburbs now. The entire rationale for *light rail* and not light metro was that we'd get cheaper construction once outside the Greenbelt. But no, we're getting light metro with all the extra costs. If they shelved the grade separation requirements, we could get two LRT corridors heading into Kanata.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Dado

I'd like to know why we're sending this to the CTC, at all, especially in light of the Sens probable move to LeBreton. Kanata's biggest problem is that someone (Teron?) long ago had the not-so-bright idea to try to make a "town centre" straddling a freeway. We've been wedded to this absurd idea ever since. I doubt it will ever work.

Kanata's second major problem is that having put a few facts-on-the-ground to match their absurd town centre straddling a freeway plan, they nevertheless didn't really try to make a go of it. So instead of concentrating all development along the freeway corridor, they went both north and south along the edge of the Greenbelt. Note that very little of Kanata's employment, and less still of its tech employment, is located along the Queensway (there's a bit in the Terry Fox-Palladium area, but that's about it). An LRT line to the CTC along the Queensway would see very little reverse flow transit use. In contrast, bus routes like the #101 (or whatever it is now) do actually see a fair bit of use.

At this point, I think they should just abandon the entire town centre straddling a freeway thing. Accordingly, don't send LRT down the freeway. In general, putting light rail down expressways and freeways, while oh-so-tempting to transportation engineers, doesn't do much to support development intensification because you're working with an inherently hostile environment with lots of land that is effectively sterilized from urban development.

Instead of one LRT corridor, they should have two: one going northwest, roughly following the old Renfrew Sub (and I mean the multiuser path, to bring it closer to DND) to Kanata North, then once past Teron head northwest along either March or Legget (with the removal of a few buildings on Carling). If Legget, it can transition to March near Terry Fox and carry on northwestwards indefinitely. There's so much asphalt in this area that redevelopment over the coming decades becomes quite plausible.

The other corridor can head along the old CPR Carleton Place Sub/TransCanada Trail past Bells Corners at least as far as Robertson Rd, and then continue southwest along either Robertson or the old railway corridor to Stittsville and beyond. Building would be easier in the latter with more opportunities for TOD just east and south of Stittsville.

I think what aggrieves me most about all these studies though is the fact that they keep on planning these routes as fully grade-separated. We're out in the suburbs now. The entire rationale for *light rail* and not light metro was that we'd get cheaper construction once outside the Greenbelt. But no, we're getting light metro with all the extra costs. If they shelved the grade separation requirements, we could get two LRT corridors heading into Kanata.

One of the reasons why grade separation is needed is because of the frequency and the length of trains. Once we get out into the suburbs, the need for trains every 3 minutes becomes ridiculous. If we had a train every 10 minutes, that is enough. In that case, a few gated intersections seems reasonable and workable.

What you are saying is something that I have argued for all along. We need to keep costs more reasonable where passenger traffic is less in the suburbs. There could still be rail priority. I have also said that integration into suburban neighbourhoods would be more successful without 100% grade separation and by not running next to a freeway, which always creates a pedestrian hostile environment. Remember how quickly LRT along the Queensway in central Ottawa was rejected.

[kmcamp]

I'm thinking what changed from the time we ordered low floor LRT so that we could do Surface running in the burbs and now was the Barrhaven bus crash. The political fallout of that seems to be that steel wheels and rubber tires must never, ever cross, hence spending half a billion on bridges in barrhaven and who knows how much on a full metro to the farthest corners of the city

[Dundas]

When do they invision the Kanata link to happen? In stage 3?

[Arcologist]

Update in the Ottawa Citizen:

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news...dor-contenders-considered-for-kanata-lrt

[YOWflier]

The fact that this is still going to the CTC can be for a few reasons:

1) Until shovels are in the ground at Lebreton, the Sens live at CTC. So do most city concerts and other events. In other words, moving to Lebreton is not a done deal until it's, well, done.

2) If a move to Lebreton happens, I'm sure CTC will be converted to a major destination of some sort. Melnyk does/will have a serious plan for that place.

[Dundas]

After reading that Citizen article Arcologist posted it seems like its a Stage 3 vision. It's funny to read the comments of that article. Some people want the train to circle all areas of Kanata. Why would they get that when Orleans is only getting it in the middle of the highway. It's not like it turns up Trim Rd and takes a left on Innes Rd and all.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by kmcamp

I'm thinking what changed from the time we ordered low floor LRT so that we could do Surface running in the burbs and now was the Barrhaven bus crash. The political fallout of that seems to be that steel wheels and rubber tires must never, ever cross, hence spending half a billion on bridges in barrhaven and who knows how much on a full metro to the farthest corners of the city

Tramways exist all around the world, and gated intersections are also successfully implemented as well. The tragedy at Barrhaven is a different situation where they already knew that traffic conditions should have had that intersection grade separated. They knew that in advance before they even built it. If this is the thinking at the city then Carling LRT is out of the question and any form of urban rail service will be completely a subway. We are really limiting ourselves as to the possibilities when the only rail implementations are going cost a fortune. Effectively, building LRT into Riverside South will also never be possible leaving us with a terminal station in the bush south of the airport and completely divorced from the community that it is intended to serve.

I am hoping that we are not going to the all or nothing approach.

[lrt's friend]

The question has to be asked that Kanata-Stittsville are being considered for LRT extensions while Barrhaven isn't even on the map.

I think they should in the end build all three branches which will completely change how Kanata works for transportation. Any one of the routes by themselves does not serve the community that well. With trains every 2 minutes and even considering the Barrhaven spur, a train every 8 minutes will be ample for any one of those branches. In off-peak hours, trains could run every 15 minutes and bus routes in Kanata would be designed to connect to all three branches so that you can still get home regardless of which train arrives next. Of course, the three branches mean that a lot of people would be within walking distance of a train station which is a game changer.

If I was making a choice, I would build the central branch as far as Centrum and the north branch as far as the Kanata North Business Park as Phase 1 of a Kanata extension. This would address a lot of current needs.

[kmcamp]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The tragedy at Barrhaven is a different situation where they already knew that traffic conditions should have had that intersection grade separated. ...
I am hoping that we are not going to the all or nothing approach.

All the signs are there for the overreaction the other way now. Yes, the Woodroffe/Fallowfield/Transitway triangle should have been separated from the get-go, but now they want to build bridges at the far less busy Jockvale and Merivale crossings. I really think the city is now afraid to have any level crossings because of that one unfortunate event, "think of the children" and all....

[AndyMEng]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The question has to be asked that Kanata-Stittsville are being considered for LRT extensions while Barrhaven isn't even on the map.

I think they should in the end build all three branches which will completely change how Kanata works for transportation. Any one of the routes by themselves does not serve the community that well. With trains every 2 minutes and even considering the Barrhaven spur, a train every 8 minutes will be ample for any one of those branches. In off-peak hours, trains could run every 15 minutes and bus routes in Kanata would be designed to connect to all three branches so that you can still get home regardless of which train arrives next. Of course, the three branches mean that a lot of people would be within walking distance of a train station which is a game changer.

If I was making a choice, I would build the central branch as far as Centrum and the north branch as far as the Kanata North Business Park as Phase 1 of a Kanata extension. This would address a lot of current needs.

I like the circle idea (I'm claiming the idea right now, because I'm not sure we talked about it yet). Just make a circle of 5/13 with trains travelling every 10 mins or so in opposing directions, meeting up again at Moodie and heading downtown!! Why do we need the central line on the highway? Every 2nd train leaving downtown will travel clockwise, or counter clockwise around the loop, and commuters can pick their poison.

Eagleson station will service katimavik just fine, Terry fox station will be a bust, but lets face it, the Centrum is a car-lobster trap anyways and who takes transit to the Centrum anyways (Park and ride moved to Eagleson/Tanger).

Travelling from Palladium on the "13" line to Moodie wouldn't take that much longer compared to straight down the highway, and it picks up fairly close to Shitsville near Shea road, and with all the new neighbourhoods being built up out there, its a good time to slam a rail line next door.

The only thing is, trains travelling north from Palladium onwards on the '5' loop will be 99% empty for that stretch, until they reach Kanata North again. So perhaps after my entire argument, the last stretch from March Road to Palladium on the 5 line can be deleted from the plan, thus no loop at all

[Dundas]

I think they should in the end build all three branches which will completely change how Kanata works for transportation. Any one of the routes by themselves does not serve the community that well.

Why would Kanata get 3 branches but Orleans one 1? It's not like the highway line to Trim is servicing all the new housing and stores on and around Innes Rd. Kanata should only get 1 like the rest.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Dundas

Why would Kanata get 3 branches but Orleans one 1? It's not like the highway line to Trim is servicing all the new housing and stores on and around Innes Rd. Kanata should only get 1 like the rest.

Obviously, you can't build all three at once, so this is a long-term thing. Orleans already has a second right of way (of questionable value) set aside. Yes, a second branch to Orleans is needed preferably right along the Innes corridor. This is when we get into the discussion of the desirability of full grade separation again and this needs to be a cost/benefit analysis. This is why we were wise in not committing ourselves to a light metro. Light metros give us no choice.

Ultimately, we may need two lines in Orleans, two in Barrhaven, and two in Kanata to have an effective long-term solution, but we all go back to who is paying for this and what about the central city? They need service too.

[Dado]

Originally Posted by AndyMEng

I like the circle idea (I'm claiming the idea right now, because I'm not sure we talked about it yet). Just make a circle of 5/13 with trains travelling every 10 mins or so in opposing directions, meeting up again at Moodie and heading downtown!! Why do we need the central line on the highway? Every 2nd train leaving downtown will travel clockwise, or counter clockwise around the loop, and commuters can pick their poison.

Not a bad idea, but transit agencies absolutely hate continuous routes because it never actually stops. They'd probably contrive to turn CTC into a double terminus.

Eagleson station will service katimavik just fine, Terry fox station will be a bust, but lets face it, the Centrum is a car-lobster trap anyways and who takes transit to the Centrum anyways (Park and ride moved to Eagleson/Tanger).

Travelling from Palladium on the "13" line to Moodie wouldn't take that much longer compared to straight down the highway, and it picks up fairly close to Shitsville near Shea road, and with all the new neighbourhoods being built up out there, its a good time to slam a rail line next door.

The only thing is, trains travelling north from Palladium onwards on the '5' loop will be 99% empty for that stretch, until they reach Kanata North again. So perhaps after my entire argument, the last stretch from March Road to Palladium on the 5 line can be deleted from the plan, thus no loop at all

For now they would, but there is development planned in that area as well. I actually have a bit of a nit to pick with whoever did the route weighting scores as they kind of pretended that there was no development planned in that area but that building LRT there would foster it. The entire area inside Terry Fox is slated for development, and everything south of Richardson Side Rd as well - and all of it likely well before LRT makes it out there. The anticipated coming of LRT might (or might not) influence the form of development, but that would be it.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Dundas

Why would Kanata get 3 branches but Orleans one 1? It's not like the highway line to Trim is servicing all the new housing and stores on and around Innes Rd. Kanata should only get 1 like the rest.

That's still one more branch than most of the older, denser, diverse-er neighbourhoods of central Ottawa will be getting, so there's that.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

One of the reasons why grade separation is needed is because of the frequency and the length of trains. Once we get out into the suburbs, the need for trains every 3 minutes becomes ridiculous. If we had a train every 10 minutes, that is enough.

But the suburbs won't be getting 3 minute service. As has been said before, the plan is for 9-15 minute service beyond Lincoln Fields (with a possible transfer in off peak).

Originally Posted by ac888yow

The fact that this is still going to the CTC can be for a few reasons:

1) Until shovels are in the ground at Lebreton, the Sens live at CTC. So do most city concerts and other events. In other words, moving to Lebreton is not a done deal until it's, well, done.

That may be true, but even if it all falls apart and the Sens stay at the CTC, I'm not convinced it is a good destination. Sure you will get a large demand for events, but how many events are held at the CTC in a year? The Sens have 41 regular season home games and a theoretical maximum of 16 post season home games (fewer than half of that is far more likely). As for other events, I don't have any stats, but I would be surprised if there are more that 50 events in a year. So we are looking at about 100 events in a 365 day year. Fine if you are adding a station to the middle of a route that is well used at other times, but as a far flung terminus, I don't see the value.

2) If a move to Lebreton happens, I'm sure CTC will be converted to a major destination of some sort. Melnyk does/will have a serious plan for that place.

Yes, Melnyk says he has plans for the Palladium when it is no longer the CTC, but the city has admitted that they have no idea what those plans are. Whatever it is, I can't imagine it having a bigger draw than the CTC currently has, so why dump money into planning a route with unknown usage.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The question has to be asked that Kanata-Stittsville are being considered for LRT extensions while Barrhaven isn't even on the map.

They had to pick one to be stage 3. As for why Kanata, I suspect it is because the stretch between Knoxdale and West Hunt Club would be very expensive for a Confederation Line extension and rehashing the old, unpopular Trillium line extension to Barrhaven so soon would be political suicide and with a transfer at Bayview and single track, it would make what would have been a slow route even slower.

Originally Posted by AndyMEng

lets face it, the Centrum is a car-lobster trap anyways and who takes transit to the Centrum anyways (Park and ride moved to Eagleson/Tanger).

Yes and no. The old parts with the big box stores is a car trap, but the newer "Kanata Entertainment Centrum" (as they are now calling it), which is the part closest to the transitway station (as shown here) is very friendly. If only they could get rid of the parking lot between the two.

I have said it before, and will say it again, extending the LRT beyond the Green Belt is like following the Peter Principle. We are extending the line until it can no longer perform effectively.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Ah cm'on!! You're freakin' kidding. Why the hell would they waste our time and money on studying corridors 5 and 13!?

In literary terms, this is called a "foil".