Alto High Speed Rail

[vtecyo]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

...Heading east from Ottawa Station, towards Laval, tracks will run through some VERY wet, boggy territory. The current VIA Rail tracks run north of the Mer Bleue Bog, and up and around the Alfred Bog, and 417 highway curves south around that area. I can presume that the HS train would share the tracks that run between Mer Bleue Bog and Orleans, and then split off near the Pendleton-Biodigester and try to sneak under the Alfred Bog (and along Highway 23) to the highway 417 corridor. That section near the bog will be challenging...

You're confusing the old Prescott Russel Trail with the VIA Rail corridor. VIA rail runs South of the Mer Bleue Bog as soon as it crosses under the 417 between Innes and Walkley. Also - VIA gets nowhere near the Alfred Bog. The track runs 18km south of the the Alfred Bog - on the section between Maxville and Alexandria.

But yes - running the ALTO line along the PRT would bring it within a few meters of the the Mer Bleue bog, but no closer to the Alfred Bog than about 1.6km.

ALTO might be better off skipping the last section of the PRT coming into Ottawa, and running south of the Mer Bleue beside VIA's corridor. If they head south starting around Leonard and headed towards Carlsbad Springs - then there's a lot more room to build a new corridor.

In any case - running ALTO through the city means a massive amount of work no matter which route it takes. Just along the existing VIA corridor there over 20 crossings of some kind that will need expanding/building or rebuilding just on the section between the 417 south of Innes all the way out to the west end of Barrhaven.

[Kitchissippi]

How viable will be the VIA Ottawa-Montreal route once ALTO opens? Probably not at all. This means a loss of service to Casselman and Alexandria which might not seem a big deal but I'm sure it will have an impact on those communities (which further fuels the anti-ALTO sentiment in rural Eastern Ontario).

Likewise when the Toronto leg opens, we risk losing access to Smiths Falls, Brockville, Gananoque and Kingston from Ottawa if ALTO replaces VIA's Toronto-Ottawa route. I imagine VIA's Toronto-Montreal run would remain viable as a milk run, but we could use a GO type arrangement for Ottawa-Smiths Falls-Kingston. On the other side it would be nice to see an Ottawa-Casselman-Cornwall service.

[dougvdh]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

How viable will be the VIA Ottawa-Montreal route once ALTO opens? Probably not at all. This means a loss of service to Casselman and Alexandria which might not seem a big deal but I'm sure it will have an impact on those communities (which further fuels the anti-ALTO sentiment in rural Eastern Ontario).

Likewise when the Toronto leg opens, we risk losing access to Smiths Falls, Brockville, Gananoque and Kingston from Ottawa if ALTO replaces VIA's Toronto-Ottawa route. I imagine VIA's Toronto-Montreal run would remain viable as a milk run, but we could use a GO type arrangement for Ottawa-Smiths Falls-Kingston. On the other side it would be nice to see an Ottawa-Casselman-Cornwall service.

That's an interesting question. One view would be that there will be far less demand for service. But those route are fairly frequent, so they could just scale back the number of departures per day and continue to run. The infrastructure is there and those parts of VIAs network are the most profitable so I can't see demand entirely drying up.

The second view is that ALTO spurs an bigger interest in travelling by rail, in general, and that actually results in an increase in demand for trips from those intermediate stations. So that increase in demand picks up some of the slack left by losing the inter (major) city passengers.

Personally, I hope both continue to exist and that they 'play nice' together so that it's easy to go from one system to another - ie Smith Falls to Ottawa to Montreal all on one ticket.

[dougvdh]

Interesting view of the narrowing down of the route in the form of land access requests: https://www.altno.ca/accessmap?fbclid=Iw...ceE6SSRfBRQYv_aem_wmRW8eou1IjOVTeDGLFOzA

Looks like a couple different options for crossing the Ottawa are being considered. Lots of pins along the most western extents of the PRT and again around Van Kleek Hill. But not much in the middle.

We should thank the opponents for keeping us up to date on the speculation ;-)

[Truenorth00]

If the Lakeshore communities were actually smart, they'd be pushing for that Kingston hub as a condition of Alto. Likewise, the Eastern Ontario communities could push for some kind of service guarantee. Nope. They are focused on NIMBY opposition or token support like, "Build it along the 401.". I used to be sympathetic. Seeing that behaviour? No more. Let them enjoy their pickups on the 401 and 417.

[Richard Eade]

Originally Posted by vtecyo

You're confusing the old Prescott Russel Trail with the VIA Rail corridor. VIA rail runs South of the Mer Bleue Bog as soon as it crosses under the 417 between Innes and Walkley. Also - VIA gets nowhere near the Alfred Bog. The track runs 18km south of the the Alfred Bog - on the section between Maxville and Alexandria.

<snip>

Yes I was confused. Thanks for the correction.

[BanjoUnchained]

In an article last week in the Ottawa Lookout newsletter Councilor Marty Carr suggests that the most likely location is on a vacant parcel of land at Tremblay Road and St. Laurent Blvd. Which would be 599 Tremblay.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

So far the way they are moving, suggests more competence that past projects. They also have the right amount of contempt for public consultation to get this done. A necessary trait today given the amount of whiners, NIMBYs, BANANAs and CAVEs (like yourself and a few others here) that attempt to derail (pun intended) any project. Pay lip service and move on.

I'm looking forward to expropriation starting this Fall.

Expropriation starting this fall seems…unlikely. They are still musing about potential routes, still doing very preliminary engineering work on the various routes.

Even if they are now ready to go and have a finalized route, the Expropriation Act is a very cumbersome process. Each individual expropriation has to be published in the Canada Gazette, anyone can object to each expropriation, if there is an objection a public hearing is mandatory, and then the court challenges start. Look at how long Frank Meyers fought the expropriation near CFB Trenton.

[Truenorth00]

Alto literally publishes their study area for station locations. People continue to make up all kinds of hypotheticals. No idea why.

[BanjoUnchained]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Alto literally publishes their study area for station locations. People continue to make up all kinds of hypotheticals. No idea why.

Can you provide a link? I haven't seen anything more specific than the original consultation map

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by BanjoUnchained

Can you provide a link? I haven't seen anything more specific than the original consultation map

I just checked. They seemed to have removed the corridor from the interactive map. But when they did have it, they had an oval bubble that stretched from downtown to Tremblay. You can see it here:



https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3...c7b2900dc39c67716f370994090ed1ce8b2da535

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Expropriation starting this fall seems…unlikely. They are still musing about potential routes, still doing very preliminary engineering work on the various routes.

Even if they are now ready to go and have a finalized route, the Expropriation Act is a very cumbersome process. Each individual expropriation has to be published in the Canada Gazette, anyone can object to each expropriation, if there is an objection a public hearing is mandatory, and then the court challenges start. Look at how long Frank Meyers fought the expropriation near CFB Trenton.

You're right. Just the finalized route this Fall. Unfortunately.

Thankfully C15 is going to help speed up all the expropriations. Hopefully, next Fall.

For once, none of the usual foot dragging where consultations take forever. Sick of that bullshit and bad actors weaponizing processes.

[urbanforest]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Expropriation starting this fall seems…unlikely. They are still musing about potential routes, still doing very preliminary engineering work on the various routes.

Even if they are now ready to go and have a finalized route, the Expropriation Act is a very cumbersome process. Each individual expropriation has to be published in the Canada Gazette, anyone can object to each expropriation, if there is an objection a public hearing is mandatory, and then the court challenges start. Look at how long Frank Meyers fought the expropriation near CFB Trenton.

Didn’t the recent legislation that was passed for this purpose make it so that objections have no teeth and hearings aren’t required? I’m not clear on the specifics but my impression was that Alto has the power now to greatly expedite the traditional process.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by urbanforest

Didn’t the recent legislation that was passed for this purpose make it so that objections have no teeth and hearings aren’t required? I’m not clear on the specifics but my impression was that Alto has the power now to greatly expedite the traditional process.

Correct. The BANANAs and CAVEs want to pretend none of this is happening.

[BanjoUnchained]

Originally Posted by urbanforest

Didn’t the recent legislation that was passed for this purpose make it so that objections have no teeth and hearings aren’t required? I’m not clear on the specifics but my impression was that Alto has the power now to greatly expedite the traditional process.

The CBC did an article about it a couple days ago: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ho...-for-its-high-speed-rail-plans-9.7184084

[ponyboycurtis]

Originally Posted by Johnny Kit Kat

I have a feeling this thread will be active for at least the next 20 years.

Considering we have threads for buildings that are barely escaping the mid-rise thresh holds that are old enough to drive I don't doubt it.

Edit* Assuming the station does get built at Tremblay.. what are the odds they open it up underneath for a direct connection to the LRT station and have it become a fare paid zone for easy transfer?

Left in the City of Ottawas hands not a chance in hell. But there are higher powers at work here.

[zzptichka]

Originally Posted by BanjoUnchained

In an article last week in the Ottawa Lookout newsletter Councilor Marty Carr suggests that the most likely location is on a vacant parcel of land at Tremblay Road and St. Laurent Blvd. Which would be 599 Tremblay.

That's like 1km walk to Tremblay. Or a shorter walk to St Laurent that makes it a second train station essentially, creating confusion.

I hope they make it work at the existing one. Expropriate office buildings and parking lots on the Trainyards side if needed.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by BanjoUnchained

In an article last week in the Ottawa Lookout newsletter Councilor Marty Carr suggests that the most likely location is on a vacant parcel of land at Tremblay Road and St. Laurent Blvd. Which would be 599 Tremblay.

Not sure why that would be preferred to the existing station.

[Ottawacurious]

Using Google maps to measure, the rail lines infront of the train station should fit 500m trains but is tight!

[dougvdh]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Not sure why that would be preferred to the existing station.

I can't find anything in any article that links Alto the site at Tremblay and St. Laurent. No idea where that idea is coming from.