Hartsfield Jackson Atlanta International Airport

[john3eblover]

So if passenger volume continues to grow beyond the airport's capacity, how do you think it will be accommodated?

the airport's capacity right now is about 120 million if i'm not mistaken, and that will last for quite a while. Meanwhile, there are plans to build a new international terminal, as well as a proposed new Southern Terminal...both of which will significantly raise the capacity as well. The new 5th runway is already making an impact on on time arrivals and departures...so Hartsfield is well equipped to handle the increase in capacity.

[john3eblover]

I doubt it. Macon is already making preparations to catch the overflow of passengers at Hartsfield. There are so far, in contact with two airlines to go to their airport. Click here (http://atlantasouth.2.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=760&view=findpost&p=19681) for more.

Macon has nothing to do with Atlanta building another airport...if Macon wants to court more commercial airlines, then that's good for them. Macon is about 85 miles away from Atlanta, while Hartsfield is 10. macon will never be a direct competitor to Atlanta, and will have no effect on the airlines or capacity there. Just like Southwest at Birmingham has no effect, or Chattanooga has no effect, or Greenville, etc.

The argument is over whether or not Atlanta will build another airport within the metro area, not whether or not smaller towns a few hours away will start to handle some "regional traffic". Sure, that will always be the case. But this is not the first time that there has been speculation about a 2nd airport in Atlanta. The NIMBYS are just too powerful. Nobody wants to build a new huge airport right next to their neighborhood. Look at how strict the airports in the area already area, like PDK. Sure, Dobbins would be ideal, but its too small and surrounded by development. Its just not going to happen unless its like 100 miles outside the city, and even then, not for a LONG time.

[Trae]

Well, Macon is 85 miles south of the city, and it is happening... Development in Macon is increasing north towards Atlanta, and though Atlanta's southern side is not growing as fast as the north, it still is growing to the south. Monroe County still a bit rural in parts, but Macon and Atlanta will grow together eventually.

[STrek777]

the airport's capacity right now is about 120 million if i'm not mistaken, and that will last for quite a while. Meanwhile, there are plans to build a new international terminal, as well as a proposed new Southern Terminal...both of which will significantly raise the capacity as well. The new 5th runway is already making an impact on on time arrivals and departures...so Hartsfield is well equipped to handle the increase in capacity.

How fun would it be if they named the new South Terminal after Shirley Franklin?! :) After all she has done quite a bit to completely overhaul the city. Would that mean the name of the airport would be the - Hartsfield Jackson Franklin Atlanta International Airport?! :haha:

[john3eblover]

^sounds like a nightmare!

[john3eblover]

Well, Macon is 85 miles south of the city, and it is happening... Development in Macon is increasing north towards Atlanta, and though Atlanta's southern side is growing as fast as the north, and is still growing to the south. Monroe County still a bit rural in parts, but Macon and Atlanta will grow together eventually.

Regardless, it's different than building another "atlanta" airport. Macon is a different city entirely.

[Trae]

It sure is, but I doubt the airlines would be coming back if it wasn't so close to Atlanta.

[Rail Claimore]

So if passenger volume continues to grow beyond the airport's capacity, how do you think it will be accommodated?

If/when that time comes, there's Dobbins and Briscoe.

How fun would it be if they named the new South Terminal after Shirley Franklin?! After all she has done quite a bit to completely overhaul the city. Would that mean the name of the airport would be the - Hartsfield Jackson Franklin Atlanta International Airport?!

Oh god, don't even go there. It was corny enough that the airport had to be named after two people, rather than one. They should have just named the new terminals after those people, not the whole airport. "Hartsfield" doesn't have the same ring to it like it once had.

[ATLonthebrain]

Most still call it Hartsfield anyway. I do, even though I know it's Hartsfield-Jackson. To me, naming the new East Terminal after Maynard is enough, or even the entire Midfield Terminal, since that's what was developed during his time as Mayor. To add his name to Hartsfield's diluted it, cheapened it, in my opinion. From what I know, Mayor Hartsfield is the one who made aviation such a focus, and pulled out all the stops to develop the airport and get the initial air mail & passenger routes. If not for that vision and forethought, there would have been no need for a Midfield Terminal in 1980.

Midfield terminal complex named after Maynard. Airport/field itself named after Hartsfield only, no Jackson. Oh well, I wasn't asked, but that's my opinion, and it's done now.

Any air service coming to Macon really has nothing to do with the Atlanta market. The thing is, people are going to drive to ATL because they can get a nonstop flight to virtually any medium-to-large market in the US, and dozens of international destinations. Macon will have service to 2-3 cities, all of which will be hubs (including ATL), and people will have to connect to get anywhere. Is the City and/or Airport offering incentives to airlines? That would be my guess for why there's new interest in serving the market. If Augusta can hardly hold onto its air service, and it is further away yet still loses the majority of its passengers to ATL, what hope does Macon have? Not much, sadly. Finally, if the commuter rail ever actually gets down there, it will come close enough to Hartsfield that there will likely be a link from the closest station to the airport.

[john3eblover]

If/when that time comes, there's Dobbins and Briscoe.

Dobbins is TOO SMALL and TOO CROWDED!!!

[Rail Claimore]

Dobbins is TOO SMALL and TOO CROWDED!!!

What are you talking about, the longest runway there is big enough to accomodate most any aircraft! Plus, if military operations there ever cease, there's plenty of room to build a terminal on the north side of the runway. We're not talking about an airport the size of Hartsfield, we're talking about a an alternative/reliever more akin to Midway or Hobby.

[Harry Cane]

Speaking of aviation, Delta releases quarterly numbers today. Should be pretty good.

[atlantaguy]

ATLonthebrain is correct, Macon has nothing to do with Atlanta.

An no Trae, the city is NOT growing as fast to the south as it is to the north. It's growing like a weed, but the northside has been going gangbusters for 30 years now and seems to be speeding up more and more (sadly). I would guess that 70% + of the regions travelers live north of I-20. These folks are NOT going to shlep to Macon to fly Southwest. Period.

[john3eblover]

What are you talking about, the longest runway there is big enough to accomodate most any aircraft! Plus, if military operations there ever cease, there's plenty of room to build a terminal on the north side of the runway. We're not talking about an airport the size of Hartsfield, we're talking about a an alternative/reliever more akin to Midway or Hobby.

Dobbins is surrounded by neighborhoods and development, who first of all would NEVER allow a commercial airport to operate there. Secondly, that 1 runway might be physically long enough, but it wouldn't be very efficient. You also need a lot of infrastructure to make an airport work, and Dobbins is just too small. When people talk about building a second Airport for Atlanta, they aren't talking about something the size of Midway, they are talking about something bigger, like Regan, or LaGuardia, etc, with multiple runways capable of significantly handling traffic from Atlanta. Dobbins has been proposed and rejected for years and years and years. Nothing has changed to make it more appropriate.

[john3eblover]

ATLonthebrain is correct, Macon has nothing to do with Atlanta.

An no Trae, the city is NOT growing as fast to the south as it is to the north. It's growing like a weed, but the northside has been going gangbusters for 30 years now and seems to be speeding up more and more (sadly). I would guess that 70% + of the regions travelers live north of I-20. These folks are NOT going to shlep to Macon to fly Southwest. Period.

once again, thank you atlantaguy

[Trae]

ATLonthebrain is correct, Macon has nothing to do with Atlanta.

An no Trae, the city is NOT growing as fast to the south as it is to the north. It's growing like a weed, but the northside has been going gangbusters for 30 years now and seems to be speeding up more and more (sadly). I would guess that 70% + of the regions travelers live north of I-20. These folks are NOT going to shlep to Macon to fly Southwest. Period.

Isn't that what I said?

[STrek777]

Speaking of aviation, Delta releases quarterly numbers today. Should be pretty good.

Very good actually! :yes:
****************************************************
Delta reports $1.8 billion profit
Earnings results first since Atlanta-based airline emerged from bankruptcy

By RUSSELL GRANTHAM
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

Published on: 07/18/07

Delta Air Lines reported a second quarter net profit of $1.8 billion, but the results were pumped up by big accounting adjustments related to its emergence from a Chapter 11 restructuring.

Excluding those gains, the Atlanta-based airline said its profit was $274 million, or 70 cents a share, easily exceeding Wall Street forecasts. The results reflect improved industry conditions this year that have lifted the bottom lines of most carriers, as well as the deep cost-cutting and re-working of Delta's flight network and other pieces of its business.

Delta's operating margin, a profit measure that excludes taxes, most accounting charges and other one-time items, was a healthy 9.8 percent.

Revenue topped $5 billion during the quarter, 5.5 percent higher than a year earlier.

In the same quarter of 2006, Delta had posted a $2.2 billion net loss, but that included huge accounting charges related to the bankruptcy case.

The big accounting gains in this year's quarter stemmed from claims and liabilities discharged in the bankruptcy case, as well as from the adoption of so-called "fresh start" accounting rules in the wake of the bankruptcy case.

Most of Delta's revenue gain appeared to come from flying fuller planes and growth in international flying. Traffic rose 5.1 percent and the percentage of seats sold jumped to 82.8 percent vs. 79.7 percent a year earlier. Unit revenue, a key measure, rose 5.6 percent, to 11.78 cents per seat-mile.

Delta, which had long lagged the industry in unit revenue -- or how much it takes in for each passenger-mile flown -- said unit revenue is now at 96 percent of the industry average, up from 86 percent at the end of 2005.

"Our accomplishments this quarter are solid proof that our plan is working," Delta Chief Financial Officer Ed Bastian told employees in a memo Wednesday. He said the airline banked $79 million in profit sharing as a result, which will be paid out to employees next year if the airline meets its targets.

Delta's unit costs also rose almost 2 percent during the quarter, partly from accounting for future profit-sharing payouts and for stock-related awards after the company emerged from bankruptcy.

The airline's average cost of fuel dropped slightly, to $2.05 per gallon from $2.14.

Delta ended the latest quarter with $3.4 billion in unrestricted cash after recently re-negotiating some of its financing and credit card processing agreements to boost its reserves.

Delta in late April emerged from a 19-month trip through Chapter 11 bankruptcy proceedings, which saw it shed billions in debt, slash jobs and restructure routes.

"Delta's emergence from bankruptcy was a significant milestone in the history of the company and the airline industry," Delta Chief Executive Gerald Grinstein said in a press release. "In delivering the kind of outstanding financial, operational and customer service results we saw this quarter, it is clear Delta people at every level are producing a strong airline with a bright future."

Delta's financial release shed no light on the status of its plans to name a successor to Grinstein, 75, who has said he expects to leave the airline this summer.

Leading internal candidates are finance chief Ed Bastian and operations chief Jim Whitehurst, but Delta's new board has also retained a search firm to look externally.

In a conference call with investors, Grinstein signaled that the search could take longer than he expected.

"Given the magnitude of this decision, [Delta's board of directors] is taking a deliberative and determined approach," he said. Grinstein has said he hopes for an internal successor.

[ThrashATL]

Atlanta airport breaks records

By JIM THARPE
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

Published on: 07/20/07

The world's busiest airport is poised to break a number or records this year as summer travelers pack airplanes, crowd security checkpoints and jam long-term parking lots.

More than 86.5 million fliers will pass through Atlanta's Hartsfield-Jackson International Airport by year's end, according to the latest airport projections. That's up from 85 million passengers last year.

The airport also is expected to log nearly 1 million operations — take-offs and landings — this year, averaging nearly 3,000 per day.

Hartsfield-Jackson broke an intraday record earlier this week. On Wednesday from 7 p.m. to 8 p.m., the airport handled a record 218 take-offs and landings. The same day the airport set a single day record of 3,103 operations, according to numbers compiled by the Federal Aviation Administration.

"We're moving a lot of people and a lot of metal," said Ben DeCosta, the airport's general manager.

The numbers are a mixed blessing for the airport. More passengers equates to more revenue, but it also means longer security lines during peak travel periods and hard-to-find airport parking spots.

The number of fliers has been steadily increasing across the nation in the last few years as the airline industry recovers from the slump it encountered after the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks.

[john3eblover]

Airport search crosses state line
The Tennessee option: Northwestern Georgia legislator and others see Chattanooga as good spot for Atlanta's second commercial airfield.

By JIM THARPE
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Published on: 07/30/07

Some aviation experts and at least one influential Georgia state senator think that a second commercial airport for metro Atlanta doesn't have to be in the metro area. In fact, they argue, it doesn't even have to be in Georgia.

[ Post your comments below. ]

A small but growing chorus of voices has begun pushing the idea that the Chattanooga Metropolitan Airport just across the line in Tennessee could be substantially expanded, eliminating — or at least delaying — the need for a second Atlanta airport.

"Going to Chattanooga, especially for the population north of the city, is a legitimate prospect," said Bruce Seaman, a Georgia State University economics professor who has conducted several studies on aviation issues related to Atlanta's Hartsfield-Jackson International Airport.

State Sen. Jeff Mullis (R-Chickamauga), who chairs the Senate's Transportation Committee, likes the Chattanooga idea. Mullis said he thinks an improved Chattanooga airport could draw Georgians from all along the I-75 corridor — Cobb, Cherokee, Bartow counties and points north.

Mullis, however, thinks the airport would have to be connected to the northern suburbs via high-speed rail for the idea to work.

"I think many people in the northern areas would consider the Chattanooga possibility, especially with the traffic problems we have in the Atlanta area," Mullis said. "It would be a smart concept as opposed to building a new airport."

The federal government awarded Atlanta a $1 million grant this year to study ways to increase capacity at Hartsfield-Jackson, the world's busiest airport. Federal transportation officials have strongly suggested that Atlanta look at a second airport to take the pressure off Hartsfield-Jackson, which could begin to reach capacity in a decade or so.

The mere hint of a second airport has jump-started the debate about where it should be located, north or south of the city. The "north" argument makes sense because that would put it near the major population centers, aviation experts say. But big chunks of land in the fast-growing region are scarce and expensive. And perhaps more important, it would be politically difficult to put any new airport near the sprawling north metro suburbs.

Proponents say the Chattanooga argument overcomes many of those obstacles.

The argument goes like this: Expand the existing Chattanooga facility, and add more flights — its longest runway already surpasses the longest ones at Washington's Reagan National and New York's LaGuardia — to woo passengers from north metro Atlanta. That, in turn, would free up Atlanta's Hartsfield-Jackson for long-haul domestic and international flights and the millions of passengers who now use it only to transfer from one flight to the next.

"If you siphon off a bunch of people to Chattanooga for U.S. routes it essentially becomes a de facto second airport," said Seaman. "A lot of people out of the northern suburbs are not making complicated connections. They're going to Chicago or Denver or New York. They don't need to go to Hartsfield-Jackson for that."

Paulding County resident Gary Badertscher flies out of Hartsfield-Jackson several times a week for his window coverings business. It takes him about an hour and 15 minutes to get to Hartsfield-Jackson. It's a 90-minute drive to Chattanooga, he said.

"If there were a high-speed train that I could drive to that would get me to the Chattanooga airport in another 20 minutes [less], I'd do it," Badertscher said. "You can count on delays out of Hartsfield-Jackson in the afternoon. If I could cut the commute time to the airport, and then cut delays in the air, I'd be all for it."

But loan officer Kevin Jones of Vinings said it takes him only 20 minutes to get to Hartsfield-Jackson. A less-crowded Chattanooga option would have less interest for him.

"It would depend on price for me," Jones said. "If they could offer cheaper flights from Chattanooga, then I might consider it."

Chattanooga's airport is now a very small David to Hartsfield-Jackson's Goliath. Chattanooga handles about 50 flights a day and about 500,000 passengers a year. Hartsfield-Jackson sees about 3,000 take-offs and landings per day and expects 86 million passengers this year.

Mike Landguth, president and CEO of the Chattanooga airport, said traffic at the small facility is up 20 percent this year as more fliers from North Georgia begin to cross the border.

"It is our hope that [federal agencies] will adequately fund airport infrastructure development to ensure airports like Chattanooga are positioned to meet the needs of our growing traveling community and provide relief to megahubs like Atlanta," Landguth said.

Ben DeCosta, Hartsfield-Jackson's general manager, declined comment on the Chattanooga idea. DeCosta has repeatedly declined comment on where he would like to see a second airport. He is expected to appoint a panel in coming months to study increasing Hartsfield-Jackson's capacity.

State Sen. Mullis, meanwhile, said he had several "informal discussions" about the Chattanooga idea with various officials. Mullis said he plans to meet with DeCosta in coming months to discuss the concept.

"I think you'll see discussions of this kicked up a notch in the future," he said.

[Trae]

That is the worst idea I have heard.

[RobMidtowner]

:previous:
I agree, why would we want to give away any potential benefits of another airport to Chattanooga when we have plenty of other potential locations that are closer within our own state. Let's keep it in house.

[Tombstoner]

I can't believe the Chattanooga idea will have a shelf-life of more than a week--no major US metropolitan area I can think of has an airport more than 50 (no less than 100) miles away from it's catchment area. Yes, Chattanooga is well positioned to syphon off some N. Georgia traffic, but that's not necessarily metropolitan Atlanta traffic. So even if it helps a bit (and if it did, we'd see it's impact even now) it's not a plausible solution. A high-speed rail-line? Please. We can't even get a trolley going up Peachtree without massive studies to study studies that may or may not result in a project.

At some point (and soon) Atlanta is going to need a second airport--it's burned through its capacity much more quickly than anyone predicted and expansion plans are finite and already factored into future growth. It's not easy to see where that second airport could possibly be where it isn't going to piss a lot of people off, but given the option of upsetting people or strangling Atlanta growth, politicians are going to have to bite the bullet.

[STrek777]

In the part arguing for the new airport in Chattanooga they wrote this:

"Paulding County resident Gary Badertscher flies out of Hartsfield-Jackson several times a week for his window coverings business. It takes him about an hour and 15 minutes to get to Hartsfield-Jackson. It's a 90-minute drive to Chattanooga, he said."

Maybe I'm a little loopy but wouldn't that time frame break down to 75 minutes to ATL and 90 minutes to CHA. Correct me if I'm wrong but it looks like they tried to get clever with the way they wrote that section.

Personally I think this is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard.

[Tombstoner]

:previous: Good catch! But another question I would have liked them to bring up is, if CHA works for some people better than ATL and is going to relieve pressure on ATL, why isn't it relieving it now??? I just don't see how officially designating it an "Atlanta Metro" airport changes anything unless you do have dedicated high-speed rail--a multi-billion dollar project that ain't gonna happen...

[akiatl261]

I think the idea of Chattanooga as a reliver is somewhat flawed. If you look at most cities with reliever airports they tend to be somewhat close to the population base. Chattanooga is quite removed from Atlanta. I think the focus should be to expand Hartsfield a bit more to allow for more growth. Then begin looking for alternatives close to the city. I.E Dobbins or some undeveloped land. To act as a reliver Chattanooga would have to invest in a far larger facility and most definanetly a direct airport rail link would be needed. High Speed or Express rail could be debated.

[LouisianaCharm]

i think its a horrible idea, and that Delta somehow has something to do with it. they know that if a second airport is built in the metro area that would, some airline would directly compete with them i.e. southwest, airtran, jet blue, for space in the market, and they and hartsfield would take a huge blow.

[STrek777]

i think its a horrible idea, and that Delta somehow has something to do with it. they know that if a second airport is built in the metro area that would, some airline would directly compete with them i.e. southwest, airtran, jet blue, for space in the market, and they and hartsfield would take a huge blow.

fyi AirTran already directly competes with us in ATL. The ATL airport in its current state still isn’t at capacity and after the new South Terminal and new International Terminal is built the airport will be able to handle even more passengers.

Sure in 30 – 40 years the ATL is predicted to be maxed out but that is a long way to go. In the interim why wouldn’t Delta fight to protect its asset? Any company worth its money is going to fight to protect what it has especially if what it has is a commanding share of the Atlanta market.

I can assure you that AirTran isn’t too thrilled about the idea of a second airport either. Take a moment and read through the AJC articles online regarding the subject. It is about the only thing that AirTran and Delta can agree on. Especially since Southwest would do more to hurt AirTran’s operation than Delta’s.

[lindros2]

Has anyone tried to bring back duty-free into Hartsfield (with Atlanta being the final destination) ?

Due to the completely ASS-BACKWARDS design of Terminal E (and the TSA thinking everyone is plotting against the USA), I just had to re-check a bottle of liquor - and ONLY a bottle of liquor - in order to re-clear security (stupid idea #2).

You're basically "held hostage" since there is no direct exit from international arrivals (yet).

This is stupid, frustrating, and ultimately results in wheels down to final exit of over 1 hour, 30 minutes.

[jcathens]

If they would build a new Chattanooga airport on the Georgia side maybe 15-20 miles south of the state line, that would make perfect sense. Put it near 75, have a highspeed rail and the northern arc. It would be just as short of commute for everybody in the northern suburbs as the commute to Hartsfield.

[jcathens]

I still think the airport needs to be build between Athens and Atlanta near 316. Right now thats the farthest commute for folks who use the airport regularly. Athens could at that point become the next Columbus Ohio if it wanted to. That area is going to grow regardless. You already have 316 in place, with expansion of the I-85 interchange already in process and overpasses and HOV in the future, and gwinnett approachin 1 million people alone, I just don't see a better idea. A paulding resident can get to the airport in around an hour, traffic on the west and southwest sides is nothing compared to north and northeastern routes. To drive from Gainesville/Athens/Lawrenceville to Hartsfield takes every bit of an hour plus more traffic.

[Stratosphere 2020]

Well, Macon is 85 miles south of the city, and it is happening... Development in Macon is increasing north towards Atlanta, and though Atlanta's southern side is not growing as fast as the north, it still is growing to the south. Monroe County still a bit rural in parts, but Macon and Atlanta will grow together eventually.


I think your right, that Macon and Atlanta are increasingly growing towards each other. I wonder if they will merge to become a single CSA with trains (to decrease commute time) and such in the future. But that is another topic.

It would seem logical to expand existing Atlanta airports in the northern burbs to handle some traffic. Taking into account that little over half of Atlanta's population lives north. But I also believe that the idea of a second major airport will be looked at much seriously in the 2030's.

[Lexy]

If they would build a new Chattanooga airport on the Georgia side maybe 15-20 miles south of the state line, that would make perfect sense. Put it near 75, have a highspeed rail and the northern arc. It would be just as short of commute for everybody in the northern suburbs as the commute to Hartsfield.

The powers that be at Nashville International Airport would certainly have something to say about that along with state leaders. That is BNA catchment area and encroaching onto it would be considered a bad idea by many state leaders here in Tennessee.

[PremierAtlanta]

The powers that be at Nashville International Airport would certainly have something to say about that along with state leaders. That is BNA catchment area and encroaching onto it would be considered a bad idea by many state leaders here in Tennessee.


Correct me if Im wrong but I thought that Tennessee officials were already on board with having an Atlanta reliever airport in Tennessee (Chattanooga). Wasn't that maglev study commission by both Tenn and GA governments for the sole purpose of linking an enhanced Chattanooga airport and the venerable Hartsfield-Jackson International Airport? Besides, isn't Chattanooga some 2 hours from Nashville? I can get from some of Atlanta's northern suburbs to Chattanooga in 45 minutes.

Of course I'm breaking a few laws here and there. :cool:

[jmcgoblue]

If they would build a new Chattanooga airport on the Georgia side maybe 15-20 miles south of the state line, that would make perfect sense. Put it near 75, have a highspeed rail and the northern arc. It would be just as short of commute for everybody in the northern suburbs as the commute to Hartsfield.

Considering that it would cost $1 Billion to extend MARTA trains an additional 10 miles up to Windward Parkway, I think the cost to build a 100+ mile high speed rail link would be insane...and it will never happen. It's about as inefficient a waste of resoursces as you could get.

[Fiorenza]

No kidding.

[jcathens]

Yea I guess this country is still pretty backwards to think that highspeed rail is innificient. Prolly not a good idea.

[Lexy]

Correct me if Im wrong but I thought that Tennessee officials were already on board with having an Atlanta reliever airport in Tennessee (Chattanooga). Wasn't that maglev study commission by both Tenn and GA governments for the sole purpose of linking an enhanced Chattanooga airport and the venerable Hartsfield-Jackson International Airport? Besides, isn't Chattanooga some 2 hours from Nashville? I can get from some of Atlanta's northern suburbs to Chattanooga in 45 minutes.

Of course I'm breaking a few laws here and there. :cool:

Just one from Tennessee I believe (from the Chattanooga area, a Sen. Jeff Mullis [R-Chickamauga]). Nashville (BNA) would have something to say about it without a doubt. And in this case, I think they would win. Chattanooga doesn't have the infrastructure in place, nor would it be feasible to put it in there, for a large airport that would serve (or in this case) double the service already in place for that market. Chattanooga would have to have good O&D and they just dont' have it to begin with. Currently BNA (Nashville International) pulls from the Chattanooga market with Southwest Airlines' low fares from BNA. Chatt. is a big feather in their cap that they will defend with everything they have.

Chattanooga is only an hour and a half from BNA. They currently run shuttles between the airport in Nashville and Chattanooga several times a day, seven days a week. Believe me, BNA officals would put a great deal of pressure onto local political powers to stop this from happening before it becomes anything more than a newspaper article. They (Nashville Metroplitan Airport Authority) can't afford to let Chattanooga have a larger airport. Especially one that will cater to low cost airlines, that just cannot happen at any expense. The bread and butter behind the success of Nashville International Airport has been the low fares, easy connections, and the large number of non-stop cities. Southwest Airlines, in having a Focus City here with close to 90 flights a day, is a big driving force behind the growth. The airport can't afford to let that slip away to a city in their back yard.


I should mention, this Senator from Tennessee is a Rupblican in a Democratically controlled Senate. He will have a hard time with this if it ever makes it out of the valley anyways.

[Fiorenza]

Sen. Mullis is Georgia, not Tennessee.

[smurf]

Just one from Tennessee I believe (from the Chattanooga area, a Sen. Jeff Mullis [R-Chickamauga]). Nashville (BNA) would have something to say about it without a doubt. And in this case, I think they would win. Chattanooga doesn't have the infrastructure in place, nor would it be feasible to put it in there, for a large airport that would serve (or in this case) double the service already in place for that market. Chattanooga would have to have good O&D and they just dont' have it to begin with. Currently BNA (Nashville International) pulls from the Chattanooga market with Southwest Airlines' low fares from BNA. Chatt. is a big feather in their cap that they will defend with everything they have.

I think you may be overestimating the importantance of BNA to most of us in the CHA area. Since you can't even fly to BNA from CHA, you wouldn't be losing too many people. Everyone here knows if you want to go somewhere and you don't want to drive, you connect to ATL, hence why the flights are booked usually. I've also been connected through Cincinnati (CVG), but that is less common. I recently went to Kansas City, it was: CHA -> ATL -> MCI -> ATL -> CHA. You can see where I would stand to lose a lot if BNA got all mad and took the ball and went home.

[jmcgoblue]

Yea I guess this country is still pretty backwards to think that highspeed rail is innificient. Prolly not a good idea.

Well there are opportunity costs involved. I'd guess that for the cost of a high-speed rail link between Hartsfield & Chattanooga you could build out the MARTA system to become one of the best and most extensive subway systems in the world. Which alternative do you think would provide the most benefit to Atlanta?

[Lexy]

I think you may be overestimating the importantance of BNA to most of us in the CHA area. Since you can't even fly to BNA from CHA, you wouldn't be losing too many people. Everyone here knows if you want to go somewhere and you don't want to drive, you connect to ATL, hence why the flights are booked usually. I've also been connected through Cincinnati (CVG), but that is less common. I recently went to Kansas City, it was: CHA -> ATL -> MCI -> ATL -> CHA. You can see where I would stand to lose a lot if BNA got all mad and took the ball and went home.

BNA is a cheaper airport to fly domestically from than ATL and we all pretty much know that. That is where I am coming from. I seriously think you would be surprised at how many people from Hamilton County make the easier drive up here to catch a flight. It's just plain easier and for that fact alone, many Chattanoogans use this airport. Granted we don't have near as many connection possiblities as ATL, but BNA gets you where you need to go fairly easily and cheaply I might add without all the hassle that IS ATL. That's not to say they don't utilize ATL because I would be full of crap to say they don't. But you have to think about the territories that are between the two cities as well, not just the urban conglomerations. Those people fly too and this would undoubtly have an affect on them. Now, as for flights between BNA and CHA, their not needed as the distance between the two is sufficent to drive and far cheaper to do so. It has been tried and it didn't work before.

The article I read said Mullis was from TN, so my bad on that.

[shanthemanatl]

BNA is a cheaper airport to fly domestically from than ATL and we all pretty much know that. That is where I am coming from. I seriously think you would be surprised at how many people from Hamilton County make the easier drive up here to catch a flight. It's just plain easier and for that fact alone, many Chattanoogans use this airport. Granted we don't have near as many connection possiblities as ATL, but BNA gets you where you need to go fairly easily and cheaply I might add without all the hassle that IS ATL. That's not to say they don't utilize ATL because I would be full of crap to say they don't. But you have to think about the territories that are between the two cities as well, not just the urban conglomerations. Those people fly too and this would undoubtly have an affect on them. Now, as for flights between BNA and CHA, their not needed as the distance between the two is sufficent to drive and far cheaper to do so. It has been tried and it didn't work before.

The article I read said Mullis was from TN, so my bad on that.

Does anybody know if there are any stats out there that would back up the claim that it's generally cheaper to fly domestically from Nashville as opposed to Atlanta?

I guess I'm one of those people that didn't "know that". I usually assume that greater competition and volume results in a better value to the customer....

[Buckley]

Is the proposal that the state of GA would pay (or help pay) for an expanded airport in Chattanooga? If so, while this may be appealing to the state senator in Chickamauga, GA, (even if he is the head of the transportation committee) there's no way it's ever going to happen. Can you imagine legislators in middle and south GA agreeing to foot this bill while cities like Macon, Columbus, and Augusta are left with relatively small, underutilized facilities? As far as a rapid rail, maglev, or whatever, you can forget that too. No way GA's present leadership will jump on that. They refuse to seriously consider commuter rail in metro ATL, even as the city chokes to death in traffic. No way are they going to pony up the bucks to build or even just to operate such a system all the way to the state border.

A much more useful and politically palatable plan would be to build a new airport in NE GA such as in Jackson, Barrow, or Morgan counties. Build the northern arc from I75 down to I20, passing by the airport site. That plan would be useful and popular.

[Lexy]

Does anybody know if there are any stats out there that would back up the claim that it's generally cheaper to fly domestically from Nashville as opposed to Atlanta?

I guess I'm one of those people that didn't "know that". I usually assume that greater competition and volume results in a better value to the customer....

Two words.....Southwest Airlines. There are some flights that would be cheaper from ATL, but the vast majority of same destination flights are, for the most part, cheaper because of Southwest here in Nashville. Delta has little in the way of competition from the other air carriers domestically from ATL on non-stop flights. So no, I don't think it can be completely "nailed" down that one city is cheaper than the other. Just select flights and then the average across the board on equal flights and non-stop destinations can be measured. I suppose you could do an "average air fare" of each airport.

[daharris80]

Two words.....Southwest Airlines. There are some flights that would be cheaper from ATL, but the vast majority of same destination flights are, for the most part, cheaper because of Southwest here in Nashville. Delta has little in the way of competition from the other air carriers domestically from ATL on non-stop flights. So no, I don't think it can be completely "nailed" down that one city is cheaper than the other. Just select flights and then the average across the board on equal flights and non-stop destinations can be measured. I suppose you could do an "average air fare" of each airport.

You have no idea what you are talking about. If Delta had no competition on non-stop flights from ATL they wouldn't have had to go through Bankruptcy protection last year. For a reality check on competition just check out Airtran's Route Map from ATL:

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s106/daharris80/airtran.jpg

[smurf]

BNA is a cheaper airport to fly domestically from than ATL and we all pretty much know that. That is where I am coming from. I seriously think you would be surprised at how many people from Hamilton County make the easier drive up here to catch a flight. It's just plain easier and for that fact alone, many Chattanoogans use this airport. Granted we don't have near as many connection possiblities as ATL, but BNA gets you where you need to go fairly easily and cheaply I might add without all the hassle that IS ATL. That's not to say they don't utilize ATL because I would be full of crap to say they don't. But you have to think about the territories that are between the two cities as well, not just the urban conglomerations. Those people fly too and this would undoubtly have an affect on them. Now, as for flights between BNA and CHA, their not needed as the distance between the two is sufficent to drive and far cheaper to do so. It has been tried and it didn't work before.

The article I read said Mullis was from TN, so my bad on that.
While I don't deny people from Hamilton Co. probably go to BNA to fly, I'd say the vast majority go to ATL. For one, if I'm gonna drive, I might as well go to ATL, that lowers the chance than I have to make a connection somewhere. Lets just use a quick travelocity example. Lets say I want to go to LAX (why, I don't know, but for the sake of arguement). I can fly from CHA to LAX with 1 stop for $480, changing at CVG and taking 6h27m. Or, I can drive 2 hours to BNA, change planes in DFW, pay $390 and take 6h5m. Then when I get back, I get to drive 2 hours back home, and I'm always so energetic when I get off a plane [/sarcasm]. But wait, if i wanted to change planes in DFW, I could go straight there from CHA... Hmm..

[Lexy]

You have no idea what you are talking about. If Delta had no competition on non-stop flights from ATL they wouldn't have had to go through Bankruptcy protection last year. For a reality check on competition just check out Airtran's Route Map from ATL:

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s106/daharris80/airtran.jpg


Actually, I do know what I am talking about. The bankruptcy was a result of years and years of debt that caught up with them after 9-11-01. Compound the downturn in the airline industry following and it was only a matter of time. Common sense is the fact that Delta is one of the most irresponsible airlines in the industry when it comes to money. Period. If they were more smarter with their spending habits a bit more "modern", the bankruptcy could've possibly been avoided. Just like their counterparts at AA did in Dallas. But regardless, they are out and that's a good thing for Atlanta and everyone else that gets force fed through that place on DL.


What I am talking about is direct competition, which Airtran is the only REAL competition for them at ATL. Everyone else, sans a few, are just ATL-Hub flights. Airtran isn't even a major blip on the DL radar on a national scale. DL makes it's money from trans-oceanic flights, not flights to Omaha. DL eats Airtrans lunch on frequency and domestic destinations on a daily basis so your point about them being a force against DL is moot at best.


Smurf-
You can fly direct to LAX from BNA on either Southwest or American without making a stop anywhere. Also, Delta is a one stop hop from BNA to LAX as well. But I see your point, but you can't deny the fact that both airports (ATL and BNA) have daily shuttles running from CHA multiple times a day. There is obviously a need there.


I haven't come in here with an attitude, so I expect the same from the Atlantians in here.

[Lexy]

On a side note fellas:

I don't think the CHA airport idea is going to "fly". But, what I do think is this starts up the talk about a new airport in the northern suburbs of ATL. This gets the conversations going a bit more and sparks some more intrest. There may be a parallel reasoning behind this idea about CHA that many have denied or not thought of here. Just a thought.

[Dragonheart8588]

Actually, I do know what I am talking about. The bankruptcy was a result of years and years of debt that caught up with them after 9-11-01. Compound the downturn in the airline industry following and it was only a matter of time. Common sense is the fact that Delta is one of the most irresponsible airlines in the industry when it comes to money. Period. If they were more smarter with their spending habits a bit more "modern", the bankruptcy could've possibly been avoided. Just like their counterparts at AA did in Dallas. But regardless, they are out and that's a good thing for Atlanta and everyone else that gets force fed through that place on DL.


What I am talking about is direct competition, which Airtran is the only REAL competition for them at ATL. Everyone else, sans a few, are just ATL-Hub flights. Airtran isn't even a major blip on the DL radar on a national scale. DL makes it's money from trans-oceanic flights, not flights to Omaha. DL eats Airtrans lunch on frequency and domestic destinations on a daily basis so your point about them being a force against DL is moot at best.


Smurf-
You can fly direct to LAX from BNA on either Southwest or American without making a stop anywhere. Also, Delta is a one stop hop from BNA to LAX as well. But I see your point, but you can't deny the fact that both airports (ATL and BNA) have daily shuttles running from CHA multiple times a day. There is obviously a need there.


I haven't come in here with an attitude, so I expect the same from the Atlantians in here.

I wouldn't pass any negative judgment on Delta for their mediocre management if I were you because STrek777 will give you an earful (or is it an eyeful?) with his/her book length response. ;) Read my & Strek777 response on pg. 15 & 16. It's actually quite amusing.

[Lexy]

I wouldn't pass any negative judgment on Delta for their mediocre management if I were you because STrek777 will give you an earful (or is it an eyeful?) with his/her book length response. ;)


Oh i'm not. I think it's pretty much common knowledge that DL was poorly run. That's one reason why they have four different liveries on their airplanes right now. Personally, I like DL alot (minus the fact they still INSIST that everyone set foot in ATL). But I think their managment could've been better earlier on. But hey, that's what the restructuring was for and it seems to have worked just a bit. I'll give them the beneift of the doubt here. LOL!

[Dragonheart8588]

Oh i'm not. I think it's pretty much common knowledge that DL was poorly run. That's one reason why they have four different liveries on their airplanes right now. Personally, I like DL alot (minus the fact they still INSIST that everyone set foot in ATL). But I think their managment could've been better earlier on. But hey, that's what the restructuring was for and it seems to have worked just a bit. I'll give them the beneift of the doubt here. LOL!

I mean I want to like Delta, if I was treated at least one time with decency when I pay for their service (seriously, I don't have that high of expectation). I hope this restructuring will do them some good and I'll will proudly support their company.

[daharris80]

Actually, I do know what I am talking about. The bankruptcy was a result of years and years of debt that caught up with them after 9-11-01. Compound the downturn in the airline industry following and it was only a matter of time. Common sense is the fact that Delta is one of the most irresponsible airlines in the industry when it comes to money. Period. If they were more smarter with their spending habits a bit more "modern", the bankruptcy could've possibly been avoided. Just like their counterparts at AA did in Dallas. But regardless, they are out and that's a good thing for Atlanta and everyone else that gets force fed through that place on DL.


What I am talking about is direct competition, which Airtran is the only REAL competition for them at ATL. Everyone else, sans a few, are just ATL-Hub flights. Airtran isn't even a major blip on the DL radar on a national scale. DL makes it's money from trans-oceanic flights, not flights to Omaha. DL eats Airtrans lunch on frequency and domestic destinations on a daily basis so your point about them being a force against DL is moot at best.


Smurf-
You can fly direct to LAX from BNA on either Southwest or American without making a stop anywhere. Also, Delta is a one stop hop from BNA to LAX as well. But I see your point, but you can't deny the fact that both airports (ATL and BNA) have daily shuttles running from CHA multiple times a day. There is obviously a need there.


I haven't come in here with an attitude, so I expect the same from the Atlantians in here.

Considering that Airtran flies to more cities direct from ATL than all the airlines combined fly to direct out of BNA, I would think you would have to consider Airtran a threat. As to your reasons for Bankruptcy, you are right that there were a multitude of causes, but I belief Delta survived through all of those problems and even the downturn in traffic after 9/11 fine until they had to compete with a second airline making ATL a hub.

On CHA as a second airport for ATL, I agree with you that it is ridiculous. Who in the world is going to jump on a train, assuming they build one, to go to TN to fly to Chicago, that's absurd. The cost of building a train to Chattanooga would fund the majority of a second airport in Atlanta.

[atlantaguy]

Drangonheart, I just flew Delta out to LAX and back, and everything about the entire experience was great.

Lexy, you underestimate AirTran big time. They have around 225 daily departures from here, and believe me when I tell you - they ARE direct competition for Delta. They fly into all of Delta's big money making domestic markets from here: LaGuardia, DC National, Boston, Chicago Midway, all of the Florida cities, Dallas/Ft. Worth, LAX, San Francisco, Denver, etc.

I know in the past you have called them a crap airline, made allusions to Valuejet, etc., though I have noticed you have toned this down lately. In my opinion, they work in the Atlanta market better than Southwest would for 3 big reasons: Advance seat assignments with boarding passes, Business Class for a very reasonable upgrade fee and XM Radio at every seat. Southwest offers none of this, and Atlanta travelers are pretty demanding and have come to rely on these "frills", so there actually is a lot of brand loyalty here with them. In every way domestically, they give Delta a run for their money.

Re: your remarks about Delta, I really don't think you have a full handle on them either. Some of your remarks are just way too "out there". One big reason for their trip to Bankruptcy was a guy named Leo Mullin. Ever heard of him?

[akiatl261]

:previous:

Totally agree. Leo Mullin and his inepitude of running an airline is what caused DL to go to bankruptcy. Also his inability to respond quick enough to the changing landscape of aviation as well as capitalizing on the very strong assets he had. Ie 777's to long haul routes 767-300 to europe 767-400er's reconfigured to international standards to be used on longer routes which they have the legs for.

I think Chattanoogans probably use Hartesfield particularly for International flights. Some may use Nashville for the southwest flights but the sheer volume of flights and options I think they choose atlanta.
The whole its so difficult to navigate ATL or ohhh its terrible is crazy. I think if you are astute and familiarize yourself with the airport its not that bad. Ie using the T-gate security checkpoint instead of the main checkpoint and connecting to the transit mall from the T-gates, Going to the E-concourse to wait for your flights because its a hell of alot more peaceful there for most of the day plus there are good resturants there. Little things like that make the experience more pleasing.

[john3eblover]

Hey...what do you know? I flew Delta from BWI to Birmingham last week, via Atlanta of course...it was a great experience! There is a noticeable difference between Delta and other carriers like US Airways and United. The service was great, the flights were on time (mostly) and connecting through Atlanta was awesome as always. They didn't even lose my bags! Something US Airways can't seem to figure out.

I'm flying on United next week from IAD to STL....i look forward to comparing that experience. But Dulles is always a huge pain, that airport is a complete mess. People really don't realize how good ATL is until you travel every few weeks all over the country. Few airports can even come close to comparing.

[jmcgoblue]

Hey...what do you know? I flew Delta from BWI to Birmingham last week, via Atlanta of course...it was a great experience! There is a noticeable difference between Delta and other carriers like US Airways and United. The service was great, the flights were on time (mostly) and connecting through Atlanta was awesome as always. They didn't even lose my bags! Something US Airways can't seem to figure out.

I'm flying on United next week from IAD to STL....i look forward to comparing that experience. But Dulles is always a huge pain, that airport is a complete mess. People really don't realize how good ATL is until you travel every few weeks all over the country. Few airports can even come close to comparing.

Delta is much better now than they were a few years ago. 3 1/2 years ago I had a red-eye from LAX to ATL with my (then) 18 month old son. While my son was sleeping in my lap I asked a flight attendant for a bottle of water. She told me (in a rude tone) that I could go to the back of the plane and take the water myself! And no, she was not busy as far as I could tell. I refused to fly Delta for nearly three years after that...which wasn't easy considering I live in Atlanta. I finally gave up my boycott, and in the past year I've flown with them several times...I have to say the crew has been quite friendly every time.

[Lexy]

Drangonheart, I just flew Delta out to LAX and back, and everything about the entire experience was great.

Lexy, you underestimate AirTran big time. They have around 225 daily departures from here, and believe me when I tell you - they ARE direct competition for Delta. They fly into all of Delta's big money making domestic markets from here: LaGuardia, DC National, Boston, Chicago Midway, all of the Florida cities, Dallas/Ft. Worth, LAX, San Francisco, Denver, etc.

I know in the past you have called them a crap airline, made allusions to Valuejet, etc., though I have noticed you have toned this down lately. In my opinion, they work in the Atlanta market better than Southwest would for 3 big reasons: Advance seat assignments with boarding passes, Business Class for a very reasonable upgrade fee and XM Radio at every seat. Southwest offers none of this, and Atlanta travelers are pretty demanding and have come to rely on these "frills", so there actually is a lot of brand loyalty here with them. In every way domestically, they give Delta a run for their money.

Re: your remarks about Delta, I really don't think you have a full handle on them either. Some of your remarks are just way too "out there". One big reason for their trip to Bankruptcy was a guy named Leo Mullin. Ever heard of him?


Leo Mullin was certainly a reason for the bankruptcy and I don't deny that. But the bigger picture is mis-managment and that's what I said in my original post. FWIW, I never claimed to have a "handle" on anything Delta. I don't know how you can say that my remarks were "out there" when we all know them to be the truth. Nonetheless, that has nothing to do with the second airport.


I have never come out and said that Airtran isn't in competition with Delta, as a matter of fact I basically said they were on routes they share. But I said that Delta alone eats their lunch on frequency and sheer amount of destinations in the US. You can't deny that at all. Airtran will not get you to Lexington, KY or to Louisville, Little Rock, so on and so forth. That's where Delta takes them to the washers at. Now, as for the markets they share frequencies on with Delta, yeah they drive the price down no doubt. But it's miniscule in the grand scheme of things domestically. So yes, they are competition, but no, they aren't a massive threat to Delta. I agree that Airtran would work wonders better than Southwest in the ATL marketplace though. That's almost a no brainer.

My feelings about Airtran go back to the days of Valujet and the way they left this market. They still owe the airport here close to $300,000 for back rents. And they still haven't paid up on it. But yet, they want back in here. Go figure.

[atlantaguy]

Well sorry, but no we do not all know that your remarks about Delta were the truth. Leo Mullins was the mis-management. Just like your remark about them currently flying four liveries! WTF? If you were at an airport that got a large mix of mainline jets on a daily basis you would realize that every major carrier except American has multiple liveries all at the same time.

Valujet is not Airtran. I don't care what they did to BNA, but it is not the same company. Again I will state that you have no idea what you are talking about re: them vs. Delta in this market.

I think it's great that you are such an aviation enthusiast now, but you are mixing it up here with industry insiders that know what they are talking about. A lot of us live and breathe this stuff all day long, every day.

[Lexy]

Valujet is not Airtran. I don't care what they did to BNA, but it is not the same company. Again I will state that you have no idea what you are talking about re: them vs. Delta in this market.

I think it's great that you are such an aviation enthusiast now, but you are mixing it up here with industry insiders that know what they are talking about. A lot of us live and breathe this stuff all day long, every day.

It is still the same "company" and they still owe the airport authority money for back rent. End of story and the end of game for them here. Ask anyone, ANYONE in their office and they will tell you that Nashville is a hole in their route system that they would like to plug back up. But until they pay up, they are on the outside looking in.

I am much more connected to the industry than you would think. Matter of fact, you would be pleasantly surprised to know what I do in regards to it and what I know (or WHO I know). But I digress. I'm not going to get into a cute little pissing match with someone who thinks they know it all. You have been, and continue to be, the only one on here that thinks everyone is clueless but yourself. I am through with the thread. You, Altantaguy, have lived up to the expectations that are set out for forumers from Atlanta. Thanks for backing up what has already been known on this forum about most of you.:tup:

Good day.

[bATLbecks]

Just thought I'd tell you, I read on ajc.com today that Hartsfield has resorted to using buses to transport people from planes to the terminal and vice versa. We all had that experience, I bet, when after a long flight you still have to wait on the ground for an additional 30 minutes for an occupied gate to become free. So, good news is they're finally trying to remedy this. Bad news, these people are so slow-acting that they hardly realize that the demand for a 2nd ATL airport is imminent and necessary now -- not 10/20 years down the road. Jeez, when will they learn?!

[atlantaguy]

It is still the same "company" and they still owe the airport authority money for back rent. End of story and the end of game for them here. Ask anyone, ANYONE in their office and they will tell you that Nashville is a hole in their route system that they would like to plug back up. But until they pay up, they are on the outside looking in.

I am much more connected to the industry than you would think. Matter of fact, you would be pleasantly surprised to know what I do in regards to it and what I know (or WHO I know). But I digress. I'm not going to get into a cute little pissing match with someone who thinks they know it all. You have been, and continue to be, the only one on here that thinks everyone is clueless but yourself. I am through with the thread. You, Altantaguy, have lived up to the expectations that are set out for forumers from Atlanta. Thanks for backing up what has already been known on this forum about most of you.:tup:

Good day.

Ah, so I guess you're taking your toys and going home then?:tantrum:

So glad as to not let you down re: the dreaded, arrogant Atlantans. We aim to please.

Grow up.

[Dragonheart8588]

It is still the same "company" and they still owe the airport authority money for back rent. End of story and the end of game for them here. Ask anyone, ANYONE in their office and they will tell you that Nashville is a hole in their route system that they would like to plug back up. But until they pay up, they are on the outside looking in.

I am much more connected to the industry than you would think. Matter of fact, you would be pleasantly surprised to know what I do in regards to it and what I know (or WHO I know). But I digress. I'm not going to get into a cute little pissing match with someone who thinks they know it all. You have been, and continue to be, the only one on here that thinks everyone is clueless but yourself. I am through with the thread. You, Altantaguy, have lived up to the expectations that are set out for forumers from Atlanta. Thanks for backing up what has already been known on this forum about most of you.:tup:

Good day.

I warned you about some these people. However, not every Atlantan in this forum is like that. There are still some kind and considerate people here on this forum.

[STrek777]

It is still the same "company" and they still owe the airport authority money for back rent. End of story and the end of game for them here. Ask anyone, ANYONE in their office and they will tell you that Nashville is a hole in their route system that they would like to plug back up. But until they pay up, they are on the outside looking in.

I am much more connected to the industry than you would think. Matter of fact, you would be pleasantly surprised to know what I do in regards to it and what I know (or WHO I know). But I digress. I'm not going to get into a cute little pissing match with someone who thinks they know it all. You have been, and continue to be, the only one on here that thinks everyone is clueless but yourself. I am through with the thread. You, Altantaguy, have lived up to the expectations that are set out for forumers from Atlanta. Thanks for backing up what has already been known on this forum about most of you.:tup:

Good day.

WOW and I didn't even have to say one word. After my last rant on here I went back to re read my post and they were pretty bitc*y. I thought this time I would sit back and see if the conversation would run it's course. Yes I am very protective over Delta but Lexy just sounded like she had her lolly pop stolen and got her feelings hurt. So no book today just a big smile as I roll my eyes at Lexy's comments. I wish everyone a great day :tup:

[Fiorenza]

I'd like to wish everyone a great day.

[Fiorenza]

If Dekalb County really wanted to move to the front, they'd open up and expand PDK for short commercial flights, with connector buses every 5 minutes running to Chamblee Marta.

[PremierAtlanta]

If Dekalb County really wanted to move to the front, they'd open up and expand PDK for short commercial flights, with connector buses every 5 minutes running to Chamblee Marta.


:previous: That would be a great idea. The surrounding area will probably be even more resistent to PDK expanding. With all of the condos, townhomes and brownstones in the area, I can not see this going by easy.

What about putting the second airport up in Hall County near the Outer Loop. Well I should say the proposed outer loop.

[Fiorenza]

We know the PDK area formerly was full of NIMBYs but most of the folks have moved on or passed away and the area is now almost totally occupied by minorities or commercial. A Mexican ain't going to show up at a hearing and bitch. Commercial owners would love the value add. The new infill owners in Chamblee would probably not like it, but I wonder if they are paying attention.

[Stratosphere 2020]

We know the PDK area formerly was full of NIMBYs but most of the folks have moved on or passed away and the area is now almost totally occupied by minorities or commercial. A Mexican ain't going to show up at a hearing and bitch. Commercial owners would love the value add.

Hehe true.:D

[daharris80]

Just thought I'd tell you, I read on ajc.com today that Hartsfield has resorted to using buses to transport people from planes to the terminal and vice versa. We all had that experience, I bet, when after a long flight you still have to wait on the ground for an additional 30 minutes for an occupied gate to become free. So, good news is they're finally trying to remedy this. Bad news, these people are so slow-acting that they hardly realize that the demand for a 2nd ATL airport is imminent and necessary now -- not 10/20 years down the road. Jeez, when will they learn?!

I don't know if the buses to Terminal is a good solution. Last month I picked some people up who flew in from Tokyo. They had to wait OVER 30 minutes in their plane as they waited for the little bus trolleys to pull up to the plain, raise up and then allow just 30-40 people on at a time. Apparently there were only two of these working and it took a long time to unload the entire plane, then to wait on their bags, then to wait in a customs line, then to recheck their bags just to leave the airport, then to wait for their bags for a second time. From landing to leaving the airport it took them close to 2 hours, and I was the fool waiting for them in the atrium. If they don't have enough gates for international flights, they need to find room to make more or do something because international travelers have a lot of choices and if they want to avoid ATL they can.

[Fiorenza]

This is a big problem. I'm hearing from my international friends that 2 to 3 hour delays in getting through the gate and customs are not at all uncommon. This is going to hurt Atlanta, and may keep Delta from getting the coveted Chinese rights. To bad the local yokels were too busy trying to get payback on the design firm when they couldn't manage to carve more favors out of the international terminal contract. That little game ended up costing years of progress and hundreds of millions more in handouts from the taxpayers and travellers to get it built...if it ever is built.

[ATLonthebrain]

The waits for Intl gates and clearing customs doesn't sound like a good situation. And yes, the delay has cost the Airport. However, this could have been just the opposite of what it is today. When DL went into bankruptcy, there was no clear indication of exactly how ATL's international traffic/route network was going to fare afterwards. Talk is one thing and action is quite another, and thankfully DL talked the talk and walked the walk with building its international presence there. FWIW, I don't think this situation is going to have any bearing on the China route authority. DL is all but a lock for the next award for its proposed service to Shanghai.

Whatever deals and handouts there may or may not have been is beside the point. And who can prove it? The East Terminal will be built. The Consolidated Rent-A-Car Center will be built. And sometime next decade, the South Terminal will be built. It's typical for ATL's projects to come online late, but they happen.

ATL is too much of an economic engine to stop growing! If it does, it's going to begin rippling through potential growth of the metro area. It is one of the primary reasons so many businesses have located there. Virtually no other airport on the planet has service to as many nonstop destinations worldwide. So, speaking on the East Terminal, even if there are delays, that does not constitute cancellation. Working in the field of Airport Management for the last 12-years, including a spell @ ATL, I know that these sorts of situations are not uncommon around the country, and the world.

The terminal at Detroit Metro was delayed due to 9/11. As a result, along with soaring construction costs, it's not as large nor does it have as many gates as originally proposed. If ATL had moved forward with this building, and DL had de-emphasized International traffic there, people would be crying about how much money was wasted building a white elephant of a terminal that wasn't needed and pointing fingers at the same group of people. Basically, the airport can't f-ing win for losing with the crowd of armchair experts and critics down there.

Also, keep in mind that DL, with its position as having the majority of service @ ATL, in essence gets its say as to whether these projects go forward. Most airports have a process in place whereby before issuing debt to finance construction, they must first get MII (majority-in-interest) approval from the airlines. Without DL's support, the projects won't happen. And DL very well may have had a part to play in why it didn't go forward earlier in the decade. Who are we to think we know, without inside info? Regardless, it will be built, just not when most had hoped.

Hiccups are one thing for the airport to experience, and that's what is happening on occasion this summer. A complete meltdown, however, is quite another situation. That is NOT going to happen before action is taken and the situation is eased with expanded space. DL wants and needs the expansion to happen, so that it can continue to grow. And the same goes for AirTran.

[Fiorenza]

I just never heard a rational reason why the original design contract was cancelled. Knowing how Atlanta operates, it smelled like a "follow the money" thing. Speaking of money, settlement of damages on the cancellation are still pending. Anyway, the result is we're going to spend far more money for far less terminal.

[daharris80]

Thanks ATLonthebrain for the response. I agree that it's not surprising that the Airport waited on Delta to get out of Bankruptcy and that the change to an International focus has made expansion of the International terminal overdue, to no one's fault. However, the idea of buses and the bus lifts seem like a really bad solution. I don't think it would take too much to design a temporary extension to the terminal where stairs are utilized and passengers walk down to a short covered walkway to get to the terminal. Perhaps there are liability issues with using stairs, or even problems getting people through customs. As far as the domestic gates something could be done similar to CVG where the regional jets unload in a small area and passengers walk to the main terminal, this seems to allow for many more planes in a smaller area and frees up gates for large planes. I saw something at one time in Terminal C where something like this was planned, but I haven't heard about it recently.

[ThrashATL]

Just thought I'd tell you, I read on ajc.com today that Hartsfield has resorted to using buses to transport people from planes to the terminal and vice versa. We all had that experience, I bet, when after a long flight you still have to wait on the ground for an additional 30 minutes for an occupied gate to become free. So, good news is they're finally trying to remedy this. Bad news, these people are so slow-acting that they hardly realize that the demand for a 2nd ATL airport is imminent and necessary now -- not 10/20 years down the road. Jeez, when will they learn?!

There are times when all 170+ gates are used. There are also times at ATL when there are 100 gates empty. The airlines, mostly Delta, have to figure out better efficiency of their concourse/gate usage and start using more spacing for arrivals. A 2nd airport is not needed in Atlanta, just more efficiency of current facilities. There are plans for almost 50 or so gates at ATL through the International terminal expansion (12 gates) and the new southern commuter terminal (36 gates).

[Lexy]

Lexy just sounded like she had her lolly pop stolen and got her feelings hurt. So no book today just a big smile as I roll my eyes at Lexy's comments. I wish everyone a great day :tup:


For what it's worth, I am a man. 28 years old and happily married. "Lexy" is short for my old hometown of Lexington, KY. :tup: Open mouth and insert foot. I have been here for quite some time and most everyone, sans you newbies, knows who I am and what gender I am. Of course, a simple look at my profile would tell you that.

[atlantaguy]

I haven't come in here with an attitude, so I expect the same from the Atlantians in here.



Nope, not a trace of attitude here.......


P.S. It's Atlantans

[Andrea]

We know the PDK area formerly was full of NIMBYs but most of the folks have moved on or passed away and the area is now almost totally occupied by minorities or commercial. A Mexican ain't going to show up at a hearing and bitch. Commercial owners would love the value add. The new infill owners in Chamblee would probably not like it, but I wonder if they are paying attention.

Some of us little people over here in Buckhead and Brookhaven might show up. We're within 2-3 miles of PDK and we already get a tremendous amount of aircraft noise. You should hear a Citation go scorching by at 1500' or so when you're having a backyard cocktail party.

[Fiorenza]

I guess that would give pause to the chitchat, but wouldn't the flight path be more over Buford Highway, Clairmont and South Buck? I'd imagine commercial jets out of PDK would have some altitude before they pass over the Buckhead Phipps area?

[Andrea]

They're pretty close, Fiorenza. Sometimes they get up there but a lot of times they'll rattle your teeth.

http://andreabennett.com/public/various/PDK%20Radius.jpg

[Dragonheart8588]

They're pretty close, Fiorenza. Sometimes they get up there but a lot of times they'll rattle your teeth.

http://andreabennett.com/public/various/PDK%20Radius.jpg

I used to live in Chamblee (5 years), walking distance to PDK airport. Is it weird of me to actually enjoy when the airplanes fly over my apartment? Guys, I'm serious. It's not that bad. Now, I live in East Cobb, I kinda miss it.

[SteveD]

I lived about a mile away, just to the left of McDaniel School Park on Andrea's map, for 14 years. I used to enjoy the overhead air traffic also. Of course now I live below an approach pattern for Hartsfield, in Ormewood Park, and that's even better!

[Behind_Phips]

They're pretty close, Fiorenza. Sometimes they get up there but a lot of times they'll rattle your teeth.

http://andreabennett.com/public/various/PDK%20Radius.jpg

Andrea,

Be glad you do not live on Longleaf Drive, the construction on the old folks home on Lennox is much louder than airplanes.

[STrek777]

Airtran's Route Map from ATL:

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s106/daharris80/airtran.jpg

Just in case anyone was wondering here is Delta's Route Map from ATL:

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r112/strek777/Domesticrouts.jpg

Keep in mind this is just the domestic route map! Personally I just can't see why we need another airport. I mean honestly look at these scant routings out of ATL! We are underserved if you ask me. :yes:

[john3eblover]

I lived about a mile away, just to the left of McDaniel School Park on Andrea's map, for 14 years. I used to enjoy the overhead air traffic also. Of course now I live below an approach pattern for Hartsfield, in Ormewood Park, and that's even better!

when I was a kid, we'd go sit at the end of the PDK runway just to watch the planes! Of course, now we would be considered terrorists... :-/

[Andrea]

I used to live in Chamblee (5 years), walking distance to PDK airport. Is it weird of me to actually enjoy when the airplanes fly over my apartment? Guys, I'm serious. It's not that bad. Now, I live in East Cobb, I kinda miss it.

I'm cool with PDK as it is. It gets pretty loud sometimes, but hey, that's life in the city.

I was really responding to Fiorenza's suggestion that nobody would show up if PDK were opened to commercial flights. I'd appreciate the convenience, but I'd definitely want to know more about noise levels, flight paths and hours of operation. My piloting skills are next to non-existent but the few times I've flown out of PDK I've been amazed that we can be buzzing over my own house in a matter of seconds.

[Dragonheart8588]

I'm cool with PDK as it is. It gets pretty loud sometimes, but hey, that's life in the city.

I was really responding to Fiorenza's suggestion that nobody would show up if PDK were opened to commercial flights. I'd appreciate the convenience, but I'd definitely want to know more about noise levels, flight paths and hours of operation. My piloting skills are next to non-existent but the few times I've flown out of PDK I've been amazed that we can be buzzing over my own house in a matter of seconds.

never mind

[Fiorenza]

What, no Delta flights to Cheyenne or Spokane?

[STrek777]

What, no Delta flights to Cheyenne or Spokane?

no no Delta does fly there. That is just the route map showing all the cities that Delta flies to non-stop out of ATL. ;)

[sprtsluvr8]

I looked at a house for sale in College Park a couple of years ago, and the agent told me about a federal program that funded soundproof windows for residents affected by the airport expansion. If the house was in one of the affected areas, the owner was eligible to receive these funds. Anyone ever heard of this or was it a story made up by that real estate agent? :) The house did have new-looking windows...

[STrek777]

I looked at a house for sale in College Park a couple of years ago, and the agent told me about a federal program that funded soundproof windows for residents affected by the airport expansion. If the house was in one of the affected areas, the owner was eligible to receive these funds. Anyone ever heard of this or was it a story made up by that real estate agent? :) The house did have new-looking windows...

yup it's true

[ThrashATL]

What, no Delta flights to Cheyenne or Spokane?

From the Salt Lake hub, yes.

[Fiorenza]

Ah yes, the old Salt Lake hub. :)

[ThrashATL]

Ah yes, the old Salt Lake hub. :)

Yep, Salt Lake, where you can take 1, 2 or 5 wives to Spokane for the weekend.

[Fiorenza]

pdk watch (http://www.pdkwatch.org/)

[atlantaguy]

Fiorenza - Just so you'll know, it's not all immigrants and commercial impacted by PDK. I live in a very nice condo neighborhood directly under final approach for the airport. While I don't mind the planes at all, my condo assoc. is now donating $$$ to PDK Watch (without asking the residents, I might add).

These are some of the most radical NIMBY's in the Metro - I've actually seen neighbors start foaming at the mouth when the topic of the airport comes up. It has disrupted so many board meetings here, I no longer attend.

Anyway, just wanted to let you know that there are still A LOT of solid middle class areas over here. Go off Bufurd Hwy a block or two and you would be amazed what this area is like now.

[Fiorenza]

OK, thanks for the correction. Yes, there is considerable infill on all sides of PDK and the pragmatic political result will without doubt result in preventing commercial ops out of PDK.

[ThrashATL]

Hartsfield Master Plan updated image... two southern concourses now, not just one angled concourse. Also shows the new rental car facility and the international terminal mapped on. Too big of an image to post, sorry for just a link:

http://www.aviationnow.com/media/images/devatl.jpg

[MarketsWork]

Great post, ThrashATL. I noticed that the master plan also includes a second taxiway between Runway 10-28 (the southern-most 5th runway) and the rest of the airfield. Some of my pilot friends have complained that the only current access to 10-28 is by a single taxiway which intersects the center of the 10-28 taxiway, a situation which creates a bottleneck and makes for very long taxi times between gate and runway . The new plan shows a second taxiway at the eastern end of 10-28, which should better integrate the 5th runway into regular operations. The only drawback is that the new taxiway looks like it will require an additional bridge over I-285, which could prove to be an expensive non-starter if funds become scarce.

But the real message in the updated master plan is that Hartsfield still has a whole lot of potential capacity to exploit before a second airport is needed.

[Lexy]

You guys and gals may appreciate this post over in the transportation thread that I have done about your airport.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=135928

[ThrashATL]

You guys and gals may appreciate this post over in the transportation thread that I have done about your airport.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=135928

Nice work! How'd you get into Delta's maint?

Since you obviously like ATL and in case you don't already have it, head over to http://www.atcmonitor.com for some fun...