[Saint John, NB] West Side Developments

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Since there isn't a thread for West Side developments, I figured I'd start one, and start with one of the more controversial projects, which I believe is being discussed at city council tonight?






I'm still having a hard time understanding why they need a permanent zoning change to stable commercial, for what's described as a temporary parking lot.



This project completely goes against what's mapped out for the property according to PlanSJ. Imo, the only zoning change that would be appropriate for the property would be a change to residential.

Taking six acres of prime real estate that is currently green space, and turning it into a 500 vehicle parking lot with a permanent zoning change to stable commercial would be an incredibly short sighted decision by the city, when it could be far better utilized for residential development or just kept as green space. A parking lot should not be considered a suitable economic development opportunity, as was stipulated in the sale of the property.

Here's hoping the city council has enough foresight to see that is a poor proposal for the future of the site.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Should look pretty amazing when it's done, but holy moly, is it ever taking a long time.

Pics courtesy of Watson MacEwen Teramura Architects

Can't wait to go back inside of the tower, and especially see inside the top structure, as that was never open when I've visited inside the tower before.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

A friendly reminder… tonight is supposed to be the big night for Saint John’s city council to vote on the permanent rezoning of Wolastoq Park to “stable commercial” all for a temporary parking lot. 😅

Here’s an interesting piece written on the subject by local activist, Bryan Wilson:

https://peoplecity.substack.com/p/they-o...SlWz7nJt2hhUc_aem_KRWOpAEeTA3vzPWrHzjvJw

Do we think the city will actually vote on tonight, or will they stall again for another few weeks?


This is what the park currently looks like:



And this is what JDI would like to turn it into, along with permanently rezoning for commercial developments into the future:



Imo, a temporary parking lot is not the type of economic project that could be described as moving the economy of NB forward, as was stipulated in the contract of the sale of the property from the province a few decades ago. This would be a very poor long term and permanent planning decision, that could be avoided in a number ways, including allowing a temporary usage for a parking lot, using busses, and building parkade infrastructure on site across the mill property.

This prominent property in the heart of the West Side of Saint John deserves better than this proposal from JDI. Fingers crossed the city council thinks the same. 🤞

[bingun]

Just to clarify, in the last council meeting where this was discussed, the VP from Irving said that the parking lot would not be temporary and would be used for future shutdowns after the Next Gen project is complete.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by bingun

Just to clarify, in the last council meeting where this was discussed, the VP from Irving said that the parking lot would not be temporary and would be used for future shutdowns after the Next Gen project is complete.

Is that better or worse? A spare 500 vehicle parking lot.

He did also mention the possibility of turning it back into a park. So why the need for a permanent zoning change for what could be a temporary or intermittent use?

Does this proposal not blatantly go against PlanSJ and ZoneSJ?

[gtsoc]

Hopefully the city votes to move this forward. If you don't think, for one second, that JDI will alter their plans if this is turned down then I've got an island down in the Galapagos to sell you. JDI is all about money - hell they just laid off close to 200 workers today and blamed it on Electricity costs and they've already floated the idea of moving some operations to the States.

I've lived on the West side for 12 years and have not once stepped foot in this park, so I decided to go have a look to see what it was all about - and much to my surprise the thing was locked up because it is winter! So thats 5-6 months of the year that the gates are likely closed! I assume with this parking lot the park would be accessible year round.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by gtsoc

Hopefully the city votes to move this forward. If you don't think, for one second, that JDI will alter their plans if this is turned down then I've got an island down in the Galapagos to sell you. JDI is all about money - hell they just laid off close to 200 workers today and blamed it on Electricity costs and they've already floated the idea of moving some operations to the States.

I've lived on the West side for 12 years and have not once stepped foot in this park, so I decided to go have a look to see what it was all about - and much to my surprise the thing was locked up because it is winter! So thats 5-6 months of the year that the gates are likely closed! I assume with this parking lot the park would be accessible year round.

You’ve got to be kidding. There’s no way in hell they will scale down a multi billion dollar expansion because they can’t turn one park into a parking lot. Honestly, the blinders some people put on when it comes to Irving. Yet, when it comes to residential proposals, people in SJ voice all kinds of displeasure with proposals that they don’t like.

This park is in a mixed residential neighborhood … just because you don’t use it, doesn’t mean other people don’t. This proposal goes against what’s been set out in Plan SJ.

[gtsoc]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

just because you don’t use it, doesn’t mean other people don’t. This proposal goes against what’s been set out in Plan SJ.

There will still be a park there to use. And there will even be a handy walkway overhead for easy access to get to the park from the North End. Win win for all!

[Pugsley]

Originally Posted by gtsoc

Hopefully the city votes to move this forward. If you don't think, for one second, that JDI will alter their plans if this is turned down then I've got an island down in the Galapagos to sell you. JDI is all about money - hell they just laid off close to 200 workers today and blamed it on Electricity costs and they've already floated the idea of moving some operations to the States.

To be fair, the release said the Irving Paper plant on Bayside Drive in Saint John "manufactures graphic paper for use in magazines, catalogs, newspapers and advertisement flyers" - so not exactly a thriving market these days. I love that they are blaming the "electricity costs" but they probably should have divested out of this a long time ago. Since they no longer control the newspapers, likely one of the biggest clients of that facility back in the day, this was sort of inevitable.

Just saying, not sure it is an apples to apples comparison of the two facilities.

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by Pugsley

To be fair, the release said the Irving Paper plant on Bayside Drive in Saint John "manufactures graphic paper for use in magazines, catalogs, newspapers and advertisement flyers" - so not exactly a thriving market these days. I love that they are blaming the "electricity costs" but they probably should have divested out of this a long time ago. Since they no longer control the newspapers, likely one of the biggest clients of that facility back in the day, this was sort of inevitable.

Just saying, not sure it is an apples to apples comparison of the two facilities.

Electricity costs are absolutely through the roof right now, though. It's not like they're making that up. And I'm fairly ambivalent regarding the Empire. In the case of this park, it's true the park is both underutilized and kind of shitty, and their property. It's also true it should absolutely not be a parking lot. The Irving companies are vertically integrated and financially sharp enough to get a cast-in-place parking garage up for far less than most could. It's still kind of unclear if this parking is vital for permanent jobs or 'just' NextGen.

Anyway, no one at City Hall or on here seems to want to strike a deal. You want your parking lot, JDI? Pay for 900m of Harbour Passage from OSCO to the bridge, built to city design specs, and for retooling the Reversing Falls Bridge itself to accommodate a multi-use path on the south side/remove the north side sidewalk. There's tons of ways to squeeze them, and I don't mean that in a particularly hostile way.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

Electricity costs are absolutely through the roof right now, though. It's not like they're making that up. And I'm fairly ambivalent regarding the Empire. In the case of this park, it's true the park is both underutilized and kind of shitty, and their property. It's also true it should absolutely not be a parking lot. The Irving companies are vertically integrated and financially sharp enough to get a cast-in-place parking garage up for far less than most could. It's still kind of unclear if this parking is vital for permanent jobs or 'just' NextGen.

Anyway, no one at City Hall or on here seems to want to strike a deal. You want your parking lot, JDI? Pay for 900m of Harbour Passage from OSCO to the bridge, built to city design specs, and for retooling the Reversing Falls Bridge itself to accommodate a multi-use path on the south side/remove the north side sidewalk. There's tons of ways to squeeze them, and I don't mean that in a particularly hostile way.

Exactly my thoughts. The city should engage in a little horse trading here.

[sailor734]

Council voted to postpone and punt back to staff. Sounds like they are looking for Irving to come to the table with more quid pro quo (AKA $$$). Lot's of talk about not enough specific community benefits to make up for the loss of the park.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

Anyway, no one at City Hall or on here seems to want to strike a deal. You want your parking lot, JDI? Pay for 900m of Harbour Passage from OSCO to the bridge, built to city design specs, and for retooling the Reversing Falls Bridge itself to accommodate a multi-use path on the south side/remove the north side sidewalk. There's tons of ways to squeeze them, and I don't mean that in a particularly hostile way.

I’ve never really found the harbour passage + sidewalks inadequate to get across Reversing Falls on foot. On bike… yeah, that can be a little scary.

What’s really needed for the West Side is a direct link between the Carleton peninsula and Uptown’s Central peninsula. Whether that’s a separate pedestrian bridge or addition to the Harbour Bridge, the return of a cross harbour ferry, or, perhaps most interestingly, a tunnel.

I think many on here are overestimating how much a tunnel would cost, and perhaps underestimating how much earth would be moved that could then be used to fill in the decrepit piers at the port on the west side, or for the sugar refinery site in the south end.

Simply put, it shouldn’t take 1.5 hours to walk between the West Side and Uptown. Even if the Harbour Passage did go through Ocean Steel, it’s not going to make the walk any faster, it will just be a little more scenic. We need more convenient solutions.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by sailor734

Council voted to postpone and punt back to staff. Sounds like they are looking for Irving to come to the table with more quid pro quo (AKA $$$). Lot's of talk about not enough specific community benefits to make up for the loss of the park.

Shocking, lol.

Kinda figured that would happen.

[darkharbour]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

I’ve never really found the harbour passage + sidewalks inadequate to get across Reversing Falls on foot. On bike… yeah, that can be a little scary.

What’s really needed for the West Side is a direct link between the Carleton peninsula and Uptown’s Central peninsula. Whether that’s a separate pedestrian bridge or addition to the Harbour Bridge, the return of a cross harbour ferry, or, perhaps most interestingly, a tunnel.

I think many on here are overestimating how much a tunnel would cost, and perhaps underestimating how much earth would be moved that could then be used to fill in the decrepit piers at the port on the west side, or for the sugar refinery site in the south end.

Simply put, it shouldn’t take 1.5 hours to walk between the West Side and Uptown. Even if the Harbour Passage did go through Ocean Steel, it’s not going to make the walk any faster, it will just be a little more scenic. We need more convenient solutions.

I disagree, I think you are grossly underestimating how much a tunnel would cost, not only because of the geology of the city but also that you need more than just a tunnel you need all the associated infrastructure on both ends as well. We're likely talking nearly a billion dollars for a project that could be replaced by simple changes to roadways, or at most a large project to add pedestrian/bike space to the existing bridge.

On the topic of Harbour Passage, isn't all of Douglas Avenue going to be upgraded to be the extension as a part of the Museum project? I thought that was part of the funding announcement last year.

Finally, it doesn't take much imagination to understand that JDI could easily build a parking garage on-site. Just go look at how the jimmied a pre-cast parking structure next to the water at the Halifax Shipyard to meet demand there because they didn't have enough adjacent land to play with. Just shut down the parking lot in the park idea, and make them go back to the drawing board and add a parking garage to their plans, redo their economic impact numbers to account for even more construction jobs now that they are building another structure, call it a win for industry and move on.

[sailor734]

I think council will approve this in the end. JDI just has to give them something they can point to as a valuable community benefit that offsets the loss of the park. Several councilors were pretty clear that a pedway that will mostly only serve to get mill workers across Bridge St. doesn't cut it.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by darkharbour

I disagree, I think you are grossly underestimating how much a tunnel would cost, not only because of the geology of the city but also that you need more than just a tunnel you need all the associated infrastructure on both ends as well. We're likely talking nearly a billion dollars for a project that could be replaced by simple changes to roadways, or at most a large project to add pedestrian/bike space to the existing bridge.

On the topic of Harbour Passage, isn't all of Douglas Avenue going to be upgraded to be the extension as a part of the Museum project? I thought that was part of the funding announcement last year.

Finally, it doesn't take much imagination to understand that JDI could easily build a parking garage on-site. Just go look at how the jimmied a pre-cast parking structure next to the water at the Halifax Shipyard to meet demand there because they didn't have enough adjacent land to play with. Just shut down the parking lot in the park idea, and make them go back to the drawing board and add a parking garage to their plans, redo their economic impact numbers to account for even more construction jobs now that they are building another structure, call it a win for industry and move on.

I think you're correct that adding a walkway to the top deck of the bridge, or below the bridge would end up being the most cost effective option, but I think you're still overestimating when it comes to the tunnel, especially if it was "just" a pedestrian tunnel, versus a vehicular, or train tunnel. Tunnelling technology has come a long way in recent years... and this wouldn't exactly be a "big dig" type project, unless it became something much, much larger, which I think could be quite an interesting option, because of how it could go hand in hand with port expansion projects.

JDI could absolutely build their town parking solutions on site at the mill, or even something that took up a far smaller footprint at Wolastoq park. I remain convinced the best solution would be to grant them a permanent rezoning request for residential development. They could quite quickly design and start construction on a project with both underground parking and above ground parking solutions, that could then be transitioned into a residential development, sort of like how the Peel Plaza parking parking garage was designed with the possibility for residential development to be built on top of it. Whether JDI would want to build such a project themselves, or simply sell it off to a private developer after the "next gen" expansion, they'd stand to make quite a a lot of profit either way!

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

Electricity costs are absolutely through the roof right now, though. It's not like they're making that up. And I'm fairly ambivalent regarding the Empire. In the case of this park, it's true the park is both underutilized and kind of shitty, and their property. It's also true it should absolutely not be a parking lot. The Irving companies are vertically integrated and financially sharp enough to get a cast-in-place parking garage up for far less than most could. It's still kind of unclear if this parking is vital for permanent jobs or 'just' NextGen.

Anyway, no one at City Hall or on here seems to want to strike a deal. You want your parking lot, JDI? Pay for 900m of Harbour Passage from OSCO to the bridge, built to city design specs, and for retooling the Reversing Falls Bridge itself to accommodate a multi-use path on the south side/remove the north side sidewalk. There's tons of ways to squeeze them, and I don't mean that in a particularly hostile way.

No one at City Hall or on here seems to want to strike a deal? Pretty funny how your "favourite" city councillor basically called for exactly what you're calling them to do.

Coun. Brent Harris said he would support the company’s proposal — on one condition.

“I need to see a major investment in the expansion of that Harbour Passage to bring down some of that loss of the park to the future area that we’re already committed to as a council,” he said.

In my opinion, both you and Brent Harris have a pretty low bar when it comes to "horse trading" with the largest private construction company in all of Atlantic Canada. The pedestrian connection between Wolastoq Park and the Harbour Passage is hardly insufficient at the moment. Where money really needs to be invested, is connecting the Marketplace West portion of the Harbour Passage, with the rest of the harbour passage... which would finally have the project live up to it's named as a "harbour passage"



If we really want to talk about horse trading with JDI, the goal should be MUCH bigger than funding a mixed use trail system... the goal should be for them to construct a major residential development. To quote Brent Harris, regarding his failed proposal to turn the Belyea Arena into transitional housing on the West Side, "we're in the middle of a housing crisis, not a recreational crisis". Is it really too much to consider asking the largest construction company in Atlantic Canada to invest in a residential housing project? JDI could design a project with both underground and above ground parking at Wolastoq Park, which could then be transitioned into a major residential development post "next gen" expansion. Whether JDI would want to build such a project themselves, or sell it off to a a private developer... they'd stand to make quite a lot of money.

That's the type of horse trading that this property deserves, and the type of result which they city could legitimately call a win. Getting JDI to fund improvements to the Harbour Passage between Wolastoq Park and Chesley Drive would be a pretty small "win" for the city. If we really want to talk about getting JDI to pay for improvements to the Harbour Passage, the bare minimum should be a project that actually turns the trail system into a legitimate "harbour passage"... and the only to do that is some sort of pedestrian walkway or multi use trail between the Lower West Side's disconnected portion of the Harbour Passage system and the Central Peninsula. Whether that's a pedestrian deck on top of, or below the Harbour Bridge, a new active transportation bridge across the harbour, the return of the harbour ferry, or yes, even a tunnel... the priority for the Harbour Passage should be a project that finally has it live up to its name.

When it comes down to the issue of cost, and long term profitability, I think an ambitious residential development at Wolastoq Park remains the most logical, realistic, and beneficial goal for the city in terms of horse trading with JDI regarding the future of Wolastoq Park. Connecting Wolastoq Park with the Harbour Passage on Chesley would be some very low level horse trading, and not something the city could actually call a victory.

This site would have some of the finest residential views in all of Saint John, and that's even including the side that would be be looking directly at the mill. Not only is there enormous potential to be unlocked with a residential development at Wolastoq park, it could even become part of the mill's long term parking solutions. The city should think big here, and come to JDI with a big ask, and not some piddly, low level request for JDI to better connect Wolastoq Park with with the Harbour Passage.

[sailor734]

https://tj.news/saint-john-south/irving-...-its-rezoning-proposal-for-wolastoq-park

Council to hold special meeting and public hearing on the amended proposal on April 3.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by bingun

JDI's amended proposal for Wolastoq Park is now available. I am still skimming through the documents, but see below.

Full letter from Mark Mosher - https://pub-saintjohn.escribemeetings.com/filestream.ashx?DocumentId=21387

A letter from Jim Irving - https://pub-saintjohn.escribemeetings.com/filestream.ashx?DocumentId=21394

Today is the big day for the future of Wolastoq Park.

Option #3 seems like by far and away the best option…

What do y’all think will be the decision made by the city council?