HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #1  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2023, 1:07 PM
M II A II R II K's Avatar
M II A II R II K M II A II R II K is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Toronto
Posts: 50,586
Why We Can’t Build Family-sized Apartments In North America

Why We Can’t Build Family-sized Apartments In North America


May 4th, 2023

By Stephen Smith

Read More: https://www.centerforbuilding.org/blog/we-we-cant-build-family-sized-apartments-in-north-america

Quote:
.....

In North America, apartments are typically laid out off of a double-loaded corridor – lots of apartments arrayed on either side of a single long hallway, like in a hotel. Each apartment generally has windows facing only one direction, with the opposite wall up against the hallway, and the other two sides up against other units in the same building. As the site grows, the central corridor is simply stretched out, and more apartments are added off of an even longer hallway. In the case of the typical design that we’re using to illustrate this design, each hallway has 29 feet of space on either side, so each apartment is 29 feet in depth, with windows only on one side.

- By contrast, in the rest of the world, including in Europe, most new buildings are designed as what Mike Eliason calls point access blocks – anywhere between one and generally around six apartments per floor arrayed around a central staircase and, usually, an elevator. Apartments can have windows on opposite sides, because the hallway and other common area take up just a small space near the center of the building. If the site is bigger, this design is repeated a number of times. One major consequence of this difference in design is that the North American double-loaded corridor buildings are much worse at providing family-sized units. --- To illustrate the point, we’ll go through the different sized apartments one by one, and compare the floor area and design. You’ll notice that the American plans have significantly more floor area for the same number of bedrooms, and have much more lightless interior space up against the common corridor to fill – inevitably with bathrooms, closets, and larger kitchens.

There are two factors driving this difference in design: vertical circulation requirements as dictated by the building code, and the external envelope of the building as dictated by the zoning code.

- North American codes (mostly building codes) have much more demanding vertical circulation requirements – that is, stairs, elevators, and in some cases even trash chutes and rooms – than codes in the rest of the world. Two stairs are required instead of one, even at fairly low heights. The stairs are required to be enclosed rather than open to the hall that serves the units. The stair treads must all be perfectly rectangular. The elevator cabins are required to accommodate a wheelchair making a 180-degree turn within them, and also a fully-extended 7-ft. stretcher. Trash is sometimes required to be collected on each floor.

- In the rest of the world, many of the above requirements only kick in for high-rises (and sometimes, not even then). For a mid-rise building, one staircase is almost always enough. At lower heights, the staircase can be open to the hall. In some countries (like France), the staircase can have winder treads, saving space. The elevator is required to accommodate a wheelchair and another person standing behind it, but, at least in Europe, typically not a turning radius inside of the cabin. In the rare cases that somebody needs to be taken out of the building in a fully-extended stretcher, without having the head propped up to fit in an elevator that’s 1.4 meters (4 feet, 7 inches) deep, paramedics take the stairs. The result is that in the most of rest of the world, it’s more affordable to simply duplicate the vertical access core as the building grows (as in the third plan in the first set of images), rather than to extend the hallway through the middle and keep adding units on either side.

- Beyond building code issues, zoning codes strongly encourage double-loaded corridors in North America. Planning anywhere in the world typically dictates the envelope of buildings with tools like height limits, setback rules, and total floor area limits. In North America, the vast majority of urban residential land is reserved for single-family houses, while apartment buildings are limited to retail corridors, former industrial districts, downtowns, highway frontage, and historical city center multifamily neighborhoods. With proportionally less land in, say, the New York or Toronto areas zoned for apartments than in, for example, Dhaka or Rome, buildings must fill a much larger proportion of their lots to meet growing housing needs. As a result, new apartment buildings in North America end up at least 65 feet thick – leading to units that are around 30 feet deep after the common corridor is subtracted, as illustrated in our American floor plans, which clock in at 29 feet (and often more like 75 or 80 feet). At this depth, there is far too much room to fill for an apartment to stretch from one side the building to the other, even if the building code allowed such a thing. Instead, a double-loaded corridor with ample bathrooms, closets, and kitchen space is the only reasonable way to fill the dark middle of the building.

.....



Starting with a studio, the American design (first unit) can be slightly bigger than a German one (second unit), or significantly bigger (third unit). The 280-sq. ft. micro-studio could not realistically be recreated with a double-loaded corridor design with apartments that are 29 feet deep, since it would require the unit to be less than 10 ft. wide along the windowed wall, making it quite dark.







The advantages of the shallower European floor plans start to become more apparent with one-bedroom apartments. They allow for a somewhat less deep version of the single-aspect American design (first unit) that’s about 7.5 percent smaller (second unit), or a floor-through design that consumes 21.5 percent fewer square feet (third unit), while also moving the bedroom to the other side of the building, giving the living room and bedroom different sun and noise exposures.







At two bedrooms, the flexibility of German layouts becomes obvious. The American plan (first unit) is so deep that each bedroom must necessarily come with its own bathroom (with extra vanity), plus huge walk-in closets. The double vanity bathroom and walk-in closet become marketing points and drive cost and rent up, but are in many cases driven by the need to fill space that can’t be filled with extra living area, and not necessarily the developer and tenants’ desire to spend scarce resources on them. The cost of construction generally rises in lockstep with square footage, but bathrooms and kitchens are particularly expensive given the plumbing and fixtures involved, driving up the cost of production and operations for the standard North American in-line two-bed, two-bath apartment. The American layout also suffers from a “bowling alley” layout, with a narrow common area squeezed between the two bedrooms, offering poor sound separation and privacy. The German point access block layouts, on the other hand, can offer a much more affordable two-bed, one-bath unit that’s a full 36 percent smaller than the American version (second unit).







A European through-floor design (third plan) can save over 200 square feet for a 3BR/2BA apartment compared to the American design (first plan), owing to less lightless space spent on corridors and walk-in closets. With a slight adjustment, the third European design could even have an American-style main bedroom suite, with its own bathroom and the area next to the adjacent bathroom enclosed to form a walk-in closet. A smaller European three-bedroom design (second plan) can also drop half of the second bathroom, saving the cost of an extra fixture and 40 square feet of floor space (that could be over $20,000 in construction, land, and financing costs in an expensive coastal market) for families on tighter budgets, or with younger kids who aren’t spending much time in the bathroom unsupervised anyway.







The European 4BR/2BA design (second plan) matches the American 3BR/2BA (first plan, in the prior series) in size and fixtures, and therefore rough cost of construction. That is to say, you can fit four bedrooms in Europe in the space of three bedrooms in America. While new four-bedroom apartments are reasonably common in Europe, a new American four-bedroom apartment is largely theoretical – the cost is so high that they are rarely found in real life. American families instead tend to opt for single-family houses, whether freestanding houses in the suburbs, or attached townhouses in more urban areas. Single-family designs, however, lack the accessibility of elevators and require more maintenance, and tall townhouses in particular tend to be less efficient (and therefore larger) due to staircases consuming more floor area.


__________________
ASDFGHJK
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2023, 1:19 PM
Crawford Crawford is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 34,571
I think the main reason we don't build family-sized apartments is bc we're culturally conditioned to believe that families don't live in apartments. In Europe, this is normal for middle class families, but in most of the U.S., apartment living is connoted with transients, young people and the poor.

I know NYC is a huge outlier, but over the last 20 years, there has actually been a dearth of small apartments. Family sized apartments apparently pencil out better, and there are lots of 3 and 4 bedroom units being produced (at least in the prime core areas). Studios and one bedrooms are rarely built in the best areas. There are lots of new(er) buildings where there are more floors than units.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2023, 2:15 PM
3rd&Brown 3rd&Brown is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,972
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
I think the main reason we don't build family-sized apartments is bc we're culturally conditioned to believe that families don't live in apartments. In Europe, this is normal for middle class families, but in most of the U.S., apartment living is connoted with transients, young people and the poor.

I know NYC is a huge outlier, but over the last 20 years, there has actually been a dearth of small apartments. Family sized apartments apparently pencil out better, and there are lots of 3 and 4 bedroom units being produced (at least in the prime core areas). Studios and one bedrooms are rarely built in the best areas. There are lots of new(er) buildings where there are more floors than units.
You can't use NYC as an example for anything in the US because the economics are so much different.

I think the article does a good job of explaining why we don't see bigger units in US apartment buildings. Heck, you rarely see 3 bedroom units. One could argue, with all of the work from home demand, there should be demand for 3 bedroom units because it essentially would function as a 2 bedroom with an office. But you don't see those either because the floor plates are extremely limiting.

There is a developer in Philly (Post Brothers) who has gone extremely high end in its latest project with the whole premise that there aren't enough "family" apartments in Center City or adjacent to Center City. The rents are obscene (for Philadelphia) but apparently the apartments are fully rented.

So there is unmet demand.

It's also a chicken and egg situation. They don't get built because the presumption is there is no market, and there is no market because there's nothing for families to rent. On top of that, because of this conundrum, banks are under the assumption there is no market for them so they encourage developers to not include them in their projects. This latter point was one of the many Post Brothers gave as to why more of them don't exist. However, they have an extremely strong track record and apparently convinced one of their lenders to let them give it a go...hopefully this proof of concept encourages more developers to proceed with bigger apartments in projects go forward (at least in Philadelphia).
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2023, 2:20 PM
3rd&Brown 3rd&Brown is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,972
Also, one other consideration. The staircase thing never occured to me (that they're enclosed now) and always 2 of them. In my building in Brooklyn it was prewar so obviously the staircase was open and if anything, it was a feature of the interior architecture.

In any case, given that new construction multi-family is ALSO fully sprinklered, the 2 stair case configuration seems like overkill. To me, the code should be written in a way that is a sort of point system...like the building is in compliance if you have fire grade doors and two stair cases, or, if you have a sprinkler system and 1 stair case. But it's written as all of the above in every instance and that does seem patently ridiculous for a 4 or 5 story building.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2023, 2:29 PM
Klippenstein's Avatar
Klippenstein Klippenstein is offline
Rust Belt Motherland
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 869
In Chicago, on shorter buildings (probably up to 4 stories), there are 2 stairs, but the back one often doubles as a porch. This is much cheaper and allows airflow if desired. Buildings are also often unattached and separate by enough space to allow light to reach the middle of the building. Perhaps not the most ideal, but an improvement considering the long skinny lot sizes we have. I’m also pretty sure, that Chicago has tried to require accessibility of first floor units in these buildings, but not the rest. For these reasons and others, this is still one of the most common building types in Chicago neighborhoods. We should really upzone the whole city to allow these like Minneapolis did (or is trying to do).
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2023, 3:13 PM
DCReid DCReid is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,469
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown View Post
You can't use NYC as an example for anything in the US because the economics are so much different.

I think the article does a good job of explaining why we don't see bigger units in US apartment buildings. Heck, you rarely see 3 bedroom units. One could argue, with all of the work from home demand, there should be demand for 3 bedroom units because it essentially would function as a 2 bedroom with an office. But you don't see those either because the floor plates are extremely limiting.

There is a developer in Philly (Post Brothers) who has gone extremely high end in its latest project with the whole premise that there aren't enough "family" apartments in Center City or adjacent to Center City. The rents are obscene (for Philadelphia) but apparently the apartments are fully rented.

So there is unmet demand.

It's also a chicken and egg situation. They don't get built because the presumption is there is no market, and there is no market because there's nothing for families to rent. On top of that, because of this conundrum, banks are under the assumption there is no market for them so they encourage developers to not include them in their projects. This latter point was one of the many Post Brothers gave as to why more of them don't exist. However, they have an extremely strong track record and apparently convinced one of their lenders to let them give it a go...hopefully this proof of concept encourages more developers to proceed with bigger apartments in projects go forward (at least in Philadelphia).
I tend to agree with Crawford more. I would surmise that most US families would overwhelmingly prefer a single family house to an apartment or condo. Most families with kids want a yard to have their kids run around and to be private. And many apartment and condo owners would prefer less kids for a bit less noise/havoc that kids can cause because they are kids, like running around halls, etc.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2023, 3:17 PM
pj3000's Avatar
pj3000 pj3000 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Pittsburgh & Miami
Posts: 7,844
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
I think the main reason we don't build family-sized apartments is bc we're culturally conditioned to believe that families don't live in apartments. In Europe, this is normal for middle class families, but in most of the U.S., apartment living is connoted with transients, young people and the poor.
Exactly. When's the last time you saw an image of the nucelar family standing outside their apartment building? Or in front of their door in a long hallway?

A family simply doesn't and shouldn't live in an apartment in the US -- that's the prevailing attitude. Apartments ain't got nothing to do with the American Dream!











Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2023, 3:26 PM
mhays mhays is online now
Never Dell
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 20,996
Developers know what things cost, and there's good precedent for rents and sale prices. Three-bedroom units tend to lose money.

Seattle trades extra height and other considerations for more three-bedroom units. Some developers do take the leap, but this tends to be only because of the trade.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #9  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2023, 3:44 PM
C3YVR C3YVR is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 235
This article written years ago in LA explains how different cities building codes effect the way high-rises are built on the West Coast:

High-Rise Codes & Housing Affordability in Los Angeles

https://letsgola.wordpress.com/2015/02/09/high-rise-codes-housing-affordability-in-los-angeles
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #10  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2023, 5:28 PM
Steely Dan's Avatar
Steely Dan Steely Dan is online now
devout Pizzatarian
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Lincoln Square, Chicago
Posts: 30,094
Quote:
Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post

LOL, I'm half-tempted to hire a photographer to shoot a portrait of my family casually lounging about the parkway out front with our 3-flat looming in the background.

home sweet multi-family home!



Yes, building and zoning codes certainly impact these things, but the cultural predisposition in our society towards detached SFHs for raising children cannot be understated. 62% of all US households live in detached SFHs, and I have to imagine that jumps to over 80% when looking only at households with young children.

Outside of a handful of our more urban cities, MFH is pretty much the exclusive domain of the poor and/or households without children.
__________________
"Missing middle" housing can be a marvelous middle ground for many middle class families.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #11  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2023, 6:12 PM
pj3000's Avatar
pj3000 pj3000 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Pittsburgh & Miami
Posts: 7,844
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
LOL, I'm half-tempted to hire a photographer to shoot a portrait of my family casually lounging about the parkway out front with our 3-flat looming in the background.

home sweet multi-family home!



Yes, building and zoning codes certainly impact these things, but the cultural predisposition in our society towards detached SFHs for raising children cannot be understated. 62% of all US households live in detached SFHs, and I have to imagine that jumps to over 80% when looking only at households with young children.

Outside of a handful of our more urban cities, MFH is pretty much the exclusive domain of the poor and/or households without children.
I feel so bad for your kids... such a darn shame that they have to live right in the heart of Chicago in some old building. Children are our most precious gifts and they all deserve a childhood with loving and caring parents, like that wonderful couple above who obviously know what a REAL home is.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2023, 6:16 PM
Steely Dan's Avatar
Steely Dan Steely Dan is online now
devout Pizzatarian
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Lincoln Square, Chicago
Posts: 30,094
^ my wife and I are the worst kind of monsters.
__________________
"Missing middle" housing can be a marvelous middle ground for many middle class families.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #13  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2023, 6:17 PM
Crawford Crawford is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 34,571
Half of our received Christmas/Holiday cards look like that. Happy family on the grass in front of McMansion-ish type home. No parent should subject their precious children to anything else...
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #14  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2023, 6:19 PM
Gantz Gantz is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 763
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown View Post
You can't use NYC as an example for anything in the US because the economics are so much different.

I think the article does a good job of explaining why we don't see bigger units in US apartment buildings. Heck, you rarely see 3 bedroom units. One could argue, with all of the work from home demand, there should be demand for 3 bedroom units because it essentially would function as a 2 bedroom with an office. But you don't see those either because the floor plates are extremely limiting.

There is a developer in Philly (Post Brothers) who has gone extremely high end in its latest project with the whole premise that there aren't enough "family" apartments in Center City or adjacent to Center City. The rents are obscene (for Philadelphia) but apparently the apartments are fully rented.

So there is unmet demand.

It's also a chicken and egg situation. They don't get built because the presumption is there is no market, and there is no market because there's nothing for families to rent. On top of that, because of this conundrum, banks are under the assumption there is no market for them so they encourage developers to not include them in their projects. This latter point was one of the many Post Brothers gave as to why more of them don't exist. However, they have an extremely strong track record and apparently convinced one of their lenders to let them give it a go...hopefully this proof of concept encourages more developers to proceed with bigger apartments in projects go forward (at least in Philadelphia).
The article is just factually wrong.
My parents' modern condo building in NYC has the European style layout and their condo has windows on both sides, not one side. So the zoning issue is not country-wide, and probably effects a very small number of select municipalities. The real reason why US doesn't build more large apartments is simply because there is no demand outside of NYC. Large families prefer SFHs.

Second, European housing situation is objectively worse than in the US. I don't see a reason why we should emulate something thats worse. Americans live in more sq ft per person AND our housing is more affordable.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #15  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2023, 6:23 PM
JManc's Avatar
JManc JManc is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Houston
Posts: 22,495
Let's consider the physical makeup of most cities. If I lived in a more urban/ walkable environment, I'd be more open to living in a MFH or an apartment as they would be built to a human scale and street facing but in most cities, the vast majority of apartment complexes are soulless human filing cabinets surrounded by parking lots.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #16  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2023, 6:31 PM
Crawford Crawford is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 34,571
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gantz View Post
T. The real reason why US doesn't build more large apartments is simply because there is no demand outside of NYC. Large families prefer SFHs.

Second, European housing situation is objectively worse than in the US. I don't see a reason why we should emulate something thats worse. Americans live in more sq ft per person AND our housing is more affordable.
While this is true, there's context. American society is built around hyper-subsidized SFH, sprawl, and auto-dominance, so families are drawn to SFH bc they're the only housing type that works, outside of NYC and maybe a few other slivers of American society.

And I'm not sure I agree that a housing type is inherently better if there's more space. More space, by itself, isn't a good measure of housing quality, especially past some minimum threshold of livability.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #17  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2023, 6:38 PM
pdxtex's Avatar
pdxtex pdxtex is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 3,210
Just guessing the math probably just doesn't pencil out. Low demand, high construction costs.
__________________
Portland!! Where young people formerly went to retire.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #18  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2023, 6:41 PM
Gantz Gantz is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 763
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
While this is true, there's context. American society is built around hyper-subsidized SFH, sprawl, and auto-dominance, so families are drawn to SFH bc they're the only housing type that works, outside of NYC and maybe a few other slivers of American society.

And I'm not sure I agree that a housing type is inherently better if there's more space. More space, by itself, isn't a good measure of housing quality, especially past some minimum threshold of livability.
Not just more space, but also cheaper.
If you chose to live in less space, you most certainly can, and it would be even cheaper!
Not sure about the dig about "hyper-subsidized" SFHs, when most modes of housing are subsidized if you start nit-picking. Certainly in Europe or the US "affordable housing" apartment slumlords.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #19  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2023, 6:44 PM
mhays mhays is online now
Never Dell
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 20,996
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gantz View Post
The article is just factually wrong.
My parents' modern condo building in NYC has the European style layout and their condo has windows on both sides, not one side. So the zoning issue is not country-wide, and probably effects a very small number of select municipalities. The real reason why US doesn't build more large apartments is simply because there is no demand outside of NYC. Large families prefer SFHs.
This is incorrect. (You're definitely not a developer!) Zoning and economics are very different in NYC vs. most places. For one, NYC gets a lot of narrow buildings due to a variety of factors generally not present elsewhere.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #20  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2023, 6:46 PM
mhays mhays is online now
Never Dell
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 20,996
Quote:
Originally Posted by JManc View Post
Let's consider the physical makeup of most cities. If I lived in a more urban/ walkable environment, I'd be more open to living in a MFH or an apartment as they would be built to a human scale and street facing but in most cities, the vast majority of apartment complexes are soulless human filing cabinets surrounded by parking lots.
"Surrounded by parking lots"!? The vast majority? I thought even in Houston a large percentage were in more urban form.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 6:43 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.