Highway and Road Improvements in London Area

[CanadianTalk]

Highways 3 and 4 near St Thomas will be getting significant upgrades soon.

The province has started an environmental assessment study to widen the Highway 3 bypass in St Thomas from 2 to 4 lanes between Centennial Avenue and Ron McNeil Line (near Wonderland Road). Additionally a new four-lane Highway 3 bypass will be constructed from Ron McNeil Line to Highway 4 which will bypass Talbotville

Highway 4 will also be widened from Clinton Line to the future Highway 3 bypass. This effectively means that there will be a 4-lane connection from the 401 to east St. Thomas.

Edited to add: In the coming months, there will be public information sessions which will reveal the specific design choices "including construction of new roundabouts or interchanges, culverts, and bridges".

Project Website: www.highway3elgin.ca

Notice of Study Commencement: https://highway3elgin.ca/resources/n...mmencement.pdf

[Djeffery]

There's your 4 lane connection from VW to the 401.

[Djeffery]

The question will be if this is finished before the new 401/4 interchange lol

[jammer139]

Great news indeed. Although they were already working on the EA and options for a Highway 3-Ron McNeil-Wonderland realignment and interchange project a few years ago. This extension over to Highway 4 is a good idea as is widening Highway 3 all the way to Centennial to address westerly supply chain. Still need to address widening Highbury north to the 401 and the supply chain coming and going from the east.



Look forward to seeing another announcement to address the Highbury Ave issues.

[jammer139]

Highway 3 getting enhancements in Windsor area too.


https://windsor.ctvnews.ca/ontario-r...ects-1.6422751

[haljackey]

Originally Posted by jammer139

Great news indeed. Although they were already working on the EA and options for a Highway 3-Ron McNeil-Wonderland realignment and interchange project a few years ago.

I'd assume this project is suspended now that the province is looking into this study. It kinda sucks in the short term because it would really be nice to have Wonderland reach Highway 3. It will connect eventually, we just gotta wait some more.

[Djeffery]

They have to decide how that new bypass is going to intersect with the current highway 3 at that point. It's going to be lights or a roundabout, I can't see the justification for an interchange. The only people taking that bypass are going to the 401, there is still a lot of traffic that goes west on 3, and there is a major window factory there that gets lots of traffic. If they decide on a roundabout, no reason they can't build that as part of the current plan and then connect it to the new bypass later, and do whatever the plan is with Wonderland at that point as it will have to join in with the bypass somehow as well.

But either way, it's not exactly a hardship as it currently sits. At best, I would describe it as a minor annoyance to have to make the right and left turns going to St Thomas that way, if you even need to go to the part that highway 3 takes you. A lot of people would take Ron McNeil Line.

[jammer139]

Until Highbury is widened and rebuilt this carnage will never stop on this road. With ever increasing volume and future supply chain trucking the crashes will keep on happening.



https://london.ctvnews.ca/charges-pe...ital-1.6429229

[ericmacm]

I am hearing from some people I know in the environmental/geotechnical field that early planning work is currently happening for a complete four-laning of Highbury down to HWY 3/Centennial Avenue, as well as a two-lane extension (with potential rough-in for divided four-lanes) of VMP down along Yarmouth Centre Road to the intersection with HWY 3.

Obviously this is all just from word of mouth at this time so take it with a grain of salt.

[jammer139]

Highbury widening makes total sense but extended VMP south via Yarmouth Centre makes zero sense given Highway 74 is 1.5km to the east. Highbury should be widened into a divided 4 lane highway similar to what you see alot of in the USA. Broad grass median that leaves plenty of space for unobstructed view left turn lanes or use of Michigan lefts at the cross roads between St Thomas and Wilton Grove. This design improves safety and allows for nonstop thru traffic north and south between St. Thomas and Wilton Grove Rd.


Traffic civil engineers have known how to design roads that dramatically improve safety and traffic flow and volumes for decades.

[CanadianTalk]

Originally Posted by jammer139

Highbury widening makes total sense but extended VMP south via Yarmouth Centre makes zero sense given Highway 74 is 1.5km to the east.......

Only reason I could think is so that Belmont can be bypassed, as well as maybe the smaller hamlets along 74 (New Sarum, Mapleton). Especially considering the fact if they want the road to be a VMP-like "limited-access" type.

If like what was mentioned in the previous post, they want to future-proof a potential 4 lane widening, it'd be a bit difficult to make four highway-sized lanes in Belmont, since the homes are almost right up to the road in some spots, and the speed limit would obviously have to be a lot lower than typical highway speed limits.

I have no insider knowledge, so this is just my guess.

I absolutely agree with the Highbury widening. That is such a dangerous stretch of road with constant "close-call" passing.

[ericmacm]

From what I understand, at least based on the information I have been told, the long term plan appears to be turning the St. Thomas Expressway and VMP into a continuous four-lane staged freeway, effectively forming a segment of a ring road. To add fuel to the fire, another person I know lives out that way and tells me MTO is also slowly starting to restrict driveway access to HWY 3 from at least Centennial Avenue to the intersection at Yarmouth Centre Road.

I think this makes sense as Highbury is fairly limited in its potential extent as a fully built-out expressway, whereas a VMP connection can go all the way up around the east side of London continuously. Again, this is all word of mouth so take it with a grain of salt.

[haljackey]

Originally Posted by jammer139

Highbury should be widened into a divided 4 lane highway similar to what you see alot of in the USA. Broad grass median that leaves plenty of space for unobstructed view left turn lanes or use of Michigan lefts at the cross roads between St Thomas and Wilton Grove. This design improves safety and allows for nonstop thru traffic north and south between St. Thomas and Wilton Grove Rd.

Problem is with all the homes and farms fronting onto Highbury, this is not possible without a lot of expropriation and deviations / small curves in the routing.

Extending the VMP gives you a 'fresh start' to do something like this. Here's a related doodle I made on the Ontario Highways thread (found here): https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/sho...234064&page=74

[jammer139]

There are very few homes or buildings along Highbury today (~10) and some would not need to be touched and there is an existing ROW and easement along Highbury already. Building an expressway as you suggest would cut across existing farmland and divide farms in two. Requiring much more expropriation then small 10-20 meter strips along Highbury.

[CanadianTalk]

The MTO has posted a slide deck on the project website that will be presented at tonight's 1st public info session regarding the Highway 3 twinning and new Talbotville bypass.

The following intersection improvements are proposed:

• interchange at Wellington Rd
• interchange at Ron McNeil Line / Wonderland Rd
• roundabout at Highway 4 and the new Highway 3 bypass
• overpass at CN tracks

You can view the slides here which includes various alternatives / designs for the improvements listed above: https://www.highway3elgin.ca/resourc...PIC1_final.pdf

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Originally Posted by Djeffery

They have to decide how that new bypass is going to intersect with the current highway 3 at that point....

It appears that from the diagrams, the bypass will start where Highway 3 currently intersects with Ron McNeil Line, and the current Highway 3 is proposed to be a natural continuation of Ron McNeil Line (kind of like how the VMP extension turns into Clarke). Ford Road will either be closed (as a cul-de-sac) or realigned further south. Wonderland will also be realigned to connect to Ron McNeil Line at the on/off ramps for the Highway 3 bypass. You can see the potential designs of this interchange on page 19 in the slides linked above.

[haljackey]

I am caught off guard by the interchanges proposed at Wonderland and Wellington. IMO Wonderland should be the one interchanging with highway 3 and not Ron McNeil, but I am not going to protest this kind of infrastructure.

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But just a few shitty overused 2 lane country roads to connect London with St Thomas.

Would be nice to have at least one 4 lane road, bus route, cycle way and/or rail service reinstated. One can dream right?

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by haljackey

I am caught off guard by the interchanges proposed at Wonderland and Wellington. IMO Wonderland should be the one interchanging with highway 3 and not Ron McNeil, but I am not going to protest this kind of infrastructure.

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Those proposals for Wonderland/Ron McNeil look very much like the Culloden/401 ramps at Cami in Ingersoll, and they work fine. Substitute Ingersoll St with Wonderland and Ron McNeil with Culloden and that's essentially what this will look like, with the addition of a ramp from what appears to be a future extension of Ron McNeil to the south of this interchange.
https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.01369...!1e3?entry=ttu

[haljackey]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

Those proposals for Wonderland/Ron McNeil look very much like the Culloden/401 ramps at Cami in Ingersoll, and they work fine. Substitute Ingersoll St with Wonderland and Ron McNeil with Culloden and that's essentially what this will look like, with the addition of a ramp from what appears to be a future extension of Ron McNeil to the south of this interchange.
https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.01369...!1e3?entry=ttu

I don't know what the traffic counts on Ron McNiel are, but I would assume Wonderland being the more important of the two routes? If not now, then the tables will turn in the future as Wonderland is used more as a connecting route between London and St. Thomas. Traffic volumes south of the 401 on Wonderland spiked 600% right after the 401 interchange opened, and I have to assume it is over 10x the old figure now, and only going to continue to increase.

But again, kinda surprised at these interchanges. Elgin proposed a roundabout here, and I thought it would either be a roundabout or a refitted intersection so Wonderland connects directly with Highway 3. While the current interchange proposed isn't really a 'fully direct' connection, I'd say it's a win.

Apparently this was a point of discussion during the public meeting too. It may be reworked who knows.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by haljackey

I don't know what the traffic counts on Ron McNiel are, but I would assume Wonderland being the more important of the two routes? If not now, then the tables will turn in the future as Wonderland is used more as a connecting route between London and St. Thomas. Traffic volumes south of the 401 on Wonderland spiked 600% right after the 401 interchange opened, and I have to assume it is over 10x the old figure now, and only going to continue to increase.

But again, kinda surprised at these interchanges. Elgin proposed a roundabout here, and I thought it would either be a roundabout or a refitted intersection so Wonderland connects directly with Highway 3. While the current interchange proposed isn't really a 'fully direct' connection, I'd say it's a win.

Apparently this was a point of discussion during the public meeting too. It may be reworked who knows.

I just don't see what the issue is though? If you are coming out of St Thomas wanting to go north on Wonderland, you come off the highway, go straight through a light and onto Wonderland. If you are coming down Wonderland to St Thomas, you turn right, go over the bridge and take the ramp to St Thomas. In looking at the images again, where I said I thought they were planning for a future road to the south is actually connecting Ron McNeil Line to the existing highway 3 towards Talbotville.

[jammer139]

MTO recently had their Highway 3 extension and widening PIC #2 meeting Nov 22nd and some updated alternatives were included in the information.


http://www.highway3elgin.ca/resource...l_20231120.pdf