[Saint John] Amalgamation w/ Suburbs

[saintjohnirish☘]

If there are any suburbanites tuning into the forum, what are some of your thoughts on this issue (arguements for/against)? Johners chime right in as well

[mmmatt]

Originally Posted by saintjohnirish☘

If there are any suburbanites tuning into the forum, what are some of your thoughts on this issue (arguements for/against)? Johners chime right in as well

I don't think it will ever happen, geographical, household income and property tax divide is far too strong...even one of those factors could stop it...all 3 means no go. KV has its own unique identity which is distinctly different from the city...this is a major draw for some residents im sure, and a big factor of their growth...removing their identity by amalgamation could be bad for all parties.

To me the biggest (and more probable) change Saint John could make would be to shrink by removing very low density rural areas which cause negative revenue situations.

[WharfRat]

Originally Posted by mmmatt

To me the biggest (and more probable) change Saint John could make would be to shrink by removing very low density rural areas which cause negative revenue situations.

This added with SJ push on urbanization would do wonders for the city's bottom line.

So unless the government is ready to do it now while the folks of Rothesay are currently occupied with the young lady who drives an old hearse and parks it on the streets of Rothesay (my god the horror), Rothesay will have no part of it.

[OliverD]

Originally Posted by mmmatt

To me the biggest (and more probable) change Saint John could make would be to shrink by removing very low density rural areas which cause negative revenue situations.

This seems like a much better idea than amalgamating the exurbs.

[josh_cat_eyes]

What I think would be wise is the amalgamation of Rothesay and Quispamsis into its own city.

[PEI highway guy]

I like the idea of amalgamation of Rothesay/ Quispam, Gondola point etc. I doubt the city would be happy about it though

[mmmatt]

Originally Posted by josh_cat_eyes

What I think would be wise is the amalgamation of Rothesay and Quispamsis into its own city.

Yes I agree with that wholeheartedly...for the same reasons I mentioned above except in a positive light...they are very close geographically (basically overlapping similar to moncton/Dieppe) and they share many similarities and services already such as police etc. I say unify KV!

[saintjohnirish☘]

None of those things would equate to smart growth, which shouldn't only apply to cities but should be a general rule of thumb for all communities. KV is not really a unique regional identity. 30 or 40 years ago it was still all farms. They themselves will tell you they are from Saint John. The reality is KV is a bedroom community, and an extension of Saint John. There are areas within city limits now that are further from the core than KV is, for instance.

The provincial property tax system encourages sprawl and subsidizes it, as it does not take into account that about 80 per cent of infrastructure (future maintenance) costs by any development will fall onto the municipality. Developing in sprawling suburbs over time is much more expensive. The SJ region needs to be on a more level playing field. We need to consider the health of the GSJ region in so much as the city itself has been in need of some help for decades.

New Brunswick needs to be smarter and develop some spatial strategy. Its still like the 1950s when it comes to sububs and cities where the wealthy white families have fled to their enclaves in the burbs leaving the working class to grapple with the burden of supporting the services in the city

Redrawing Saint John's boundaries is a good idea. But not to shrink the city, but to lose sparse areas of the existing boundaries and absorbing KV/GB.

And out of respect for all involved forming a new city with a new name might not be a bad idea either.

[JHikka]

What would Saint Johners gain by adding suburbanites to a city that is already geographically too large?

What do suburbanites gain by being annexed into a city still trying to get its act together?

Without sensible answers to either of these questions the amalgamation debate ends pretty quickly. I've heard a sentiment in recent years that SJ would be better off shedding some of its geography by removing sections like Lorneville and Red Head, although the plausibility/feasibility of that idea still escapes me. There are major industrial park developments in each that add tax revenue to the City.

There's an obvious issue of City vs. Suburbs in Saint John which has been occurring for at least thirty years now. The best solution for SJ City at this point is to have smart, urban policies in place to make urban living more desirable than that of suburban living. What benefits does living in a big city have over living in a suburban bedroom community? Capitalize on those, which I think the City is doing now with urbanization policies, and you'll get your growth. The suburbs will always beat you with suburban living but you can offer something they can only dream of - high-density developments footsteps away from your apartment/condo, with entertainment and amenities nearby, without having to touch a car or transit. You're always going to have people that want to live the suburban lifestyle but making your city as strong as possible for urbanites will go a long way to creating your own growth and mitigating the differences between the two. Rather than punishing people for choosing to live in suburbs (like adding tolls to highways), give people a reason to live the urban lifestyle.

In the long term GNB is going to be forced to force the amalgamation of the plethroa of rural/suburban communities in New Brunswick that wish to stay independent. I'm mostly referring to situations like Sussex & Sussex Corner, Maryland, Riverview, etc. It makes more sense for GNB to force rural/suburban areas to amalgamate amongst themselves rather than forcing suburban areas to be conjoined with urban areas, either weighing down the former or the latter. For me, Rothesay & Quispamsis merging into KV seems more likely than either ever agreeing to join SJ.

[mmmatt]

Unique Identity

Sure Quis/Roth are just "bedroom communities" of Saint John, that doesn't mean they don't have unique identity. Take a simple example in your head and think of the top 4 descriptors of SJ and KV.

SJ:

Urban
Industrial
Heritage
Grit (in a cool way mostly)

KV:

Suburban
Car-centered
Modern
Calm/Peaceful/Casual

I'm not saying that SJ is all old or KV is all new etc, but in general I think the lay-person on the street would give you similar ideas to those listed above. This means each area has a separate identity, one attracts certain residents and businesses, the other attracts another type.

Geography

The simple fact is these two areas are separated by a vast area of blank space, this makes partnership and shared services impractical and it further gives each area a separate identity. StatsCan understands this which is why KV and SJ are 2 separate areas in the POPCTR measurement, they are not contiguous...compare that to Moncton/Riverview/Dieppe and Charlottetown/Stratford and you will see my point. (these maps are not at the same scale of course, SJ/KV is zoomed out much further to see the whole thing)







Shared Services

To me this is one of the largest indicators of potential amalgamation success...pre-merger service sharing. This shows that, without being "forced" into it, these partnerships just make sense in general for all parties.


PD - Saint John Police vs KV PD
Power - Saint John Energy vs NB Power
Water - Saint John Water vs Quispam water, Roth water
FD - Saint John Fire vs KV FD
Transit - Saint John Transit vs (Kinda SJT but its really just one way Comex)
Landfill - Fundy Region Solid Waste - Same

As you can see there are not many shared services currently...in fact it again shows the amalgamation of KV makes good sense as they share almost all services already.

Compare that again to areas such as Moncton/Dieppe/Riverview and Charlottetown/Stratford and for both these examples the services are shared at a much higher rate currently.

I'm not saying that M/D/R and C/S are even good candidates for amalgamation as they have their own issues, but they are more likely candidates based on these factors...M/D/R of course has another factor in play which isnt an issue for SJ/KV and C/S being language...

I'm not saying amalgamation of SJ/KV is impossible, just that its impractical and unlikely...plus there are many better candidates for merger in NB as JHikka mentioned above (Sussex/Sussex Corner get on with it!!)

[saintjohnirish☘]

^^ You can't depend on people choosing the urban life when the tax structure encourages sprawl. The framework has to be there. And its not.

Also, Saint John has plenty of suburban neighbourhoods within its boundaries already. And the reason why they can't compete with KV is, you guessed it— tax structure. Not to mention easy access to the city via the throughway. And there is always the fact that many people do not want to live close to a mill, which makes it harder to attract people to move into the city. You can't just wait for people to suddenly want to move into the city when there are so many factors in play encouraging people not to.

Spatial data isn't quite as relavant when you consider where people work and shop. KV really has no economy of its own and mostly everyone works in Saint John. You could not say that about Dieppe, which has more of its own jobs and identity, to use your word, separate from Mton.

And I dont really follow what your map is showing... What you have there isnt the Saint John boundary or KV. Rothesay boarders on SJ and Quispam boaders on Rothesay. You can drive into Rothesay from Saint John and not notice..

[thefishingnut]

Originally Posted by saintjohnirish☘

^^ You can't depend on people choosing the urban life when the tax structure encourages sprawl. The framework has to be there. And its not.

Property taxes have a small impact, but that is very quickly offset by commuting costs. Anyone who tells you they are in the KV because of property tax is either a moron or not telling you the full truth.

Some people, myself included, have not the slightest interest in an urban lifestyle. I spent about 15 years in cities the early part of my career in large cities so have experienced it. I come from a small town, and there are many others who have come in from Nfld or rural New Brunswick who also have no interest. Our focus is family life, and kids playing in the yard and having friends over and sit by a nighttime fire. Once in a while we catch an urban event like the recent fireworks, we'll probably go to Buskers again, but that's not what we are about.

Almost every single person I knew who started off downtown, mind you these are IT people with good incomes, were downtown to start careers and share apartments and party, and moved out to raise their family once they hit that stage. The few remaining ones are certainly not close to downtown if they are still in Saint John limits. Making Saint John a place high income people from away want to raise their young kids is incredibly important.

Weather and air quality are also of incredible importance. Many summer days it is 10 degrees warmer in the suburbs. Some people like the cool and fog in the summer, some people hate it. I've had a couple of places in Saint John, the last one was on the hill near the cemetery on Westmorland Road, and not long after I had to put a winter coat on one day to weed the garden in a mid July fog I said screw this, we're putting up the for sale sign. Driving though Champlain Heights or near the mill on bad days, I wonder how anyone would put themselves through the stink and impact on their health.

Present government has taken the stance that further amalgamations will be where communities want it, and forced amalgamations are off. Of course that can change. But if you put a poll out in the KV on whether amalgamation with Saint John is desired, I would be surprised if less than 90% would oppose it. And to amalgamate Rothesay and Quispamsis I expect people would basically say why bother setting things back a couple of years (because of the lost momentum due to reorganizing and harmonizing) and spending tons of money to consolidate on the slight chance it would result in a future property tax decrease.

[mmmatt]

Originally Posted by saintjohnirish☘

And I dont really follow what your map is showing... What you have there isnt the Saint John boundary or KV. Rothesay boarders on SJ and Quispam boaders on Rothesay. You can drive into Rothesay from Saint John and not notice..

The maps are for StatsCan Population Center boundaries, they show contiguous built up areas...SJ and KV are not contiguous...just because there is one street (rothesay ave) that has some houses on it during the 20 min drive between Saint John and Rothesay does not mean they are contiguous...under that logic you could say basically any community is contiguous with another in NB because there are always rural roads with houses connecting them.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by mmmatt

The maps are for StatsCan Population Center boundaries, they show contiguous built up areas...SJ and KV are not contiguous...just because there is one street (rothesay ave) that has some houses on it during the 20 min drive between Saint John and Rothesay does not mean they are contiguous...under that logic you could say basically any community is contiguous with another in NB because there are always rural roads with houses connecting them.

Agreed. KV and SJ are not contiguous. They are most certainly economically related and parts of the same CMA, but there is not a continuous development corridor between the two communities.

It's the same as in this image of the Charlottetown CA that mmmatt also provided.



Charlottetown and Cornwall are not contiguous. The separation between the two communities may only be a couple of kms, but the separation is enough that they are not part of the same POPCTR.

[Wolkenkratzerliebhab]

Actually, as a person who loves to walk from E. Saint. John to Quipamsis a lot, Saint John and KV are continuious along the river route. Sure, if you take the highway, but all along the river the area is built up and contiunious. I walk it... trust me, I have no doubt about that because it's a fact.
.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Wolkenkratzerliebhab

Actually, as a person who loves to walk from E. Saint. John to Quipamsis a lot, Saint John and KV are continuious along the river route. Sure, if you take the highway, but all along the river the area is built up and contiunious. I walk it... trust me, I have no doubt about that because it's a fact.
.

I guess it all depends on your definition of a "continuous" built up strip. I've driven on the old highway between the KV and SJ on numerous occasions (it's scenic and I like it), but personally I think there is a development gap there.

Regardless, Statistic Canada seems to agree with me and not with you.

[mmmatt]

Originally Posted by Wolkenkratzerliebhab

Actually, as a person who loves to walk from E. Saint. John to Quipamsis a lot, Saint John and KV are continuious along the river route. Sure, if you take the highway, but all along the river the area is built up and contiunious. I walk it... trust me, I have no doubt about that because it's a fact.
.

Like I said above it would need to be much more than one long street (with perhaps a few off shoots) connecting the two...Dieppe/Moncton and Shediac actually have 2 such streets connecting them... both with houses all along...however they are not considered contiguous either, and rightly so.

[thefishingnut]

Originally Posted by Wolkenkratzerliebhab

Actually, as a person who loves to walk from E. Saint. John to Quipamsis a lot, Saint John and KV are continuious along the river route. Sure, if you take the highway, but all along the river the area is built up and contiunious. I walk it... trust me, I have no doubt about that because it's a fact.
.

I don't actually know where the border between Saint John and Rothesay is along the river route, neither entity seems to have bothered with a sign...

But that being said, a train bridge, gravel pit, rock cut and swamp are really stretching the continuous development context IMO.

[michael_d40]

Originally Posted by thefishingnut

I don't actually know where the border between Saint John and Rothesay is along the river route, neither entity seems to have bothered with a sign...

But that being said, a train bridge, gravel pit, rock cut and swamp are really stretching the continuous development context IMO.

Here's the Saint John sign driving into the city

https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.3488113,-...6X2LEarSd73AdyMxUAgYg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

The Rothesay sign leaving the city;

https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.348891,-6...g1vEaiyQkQJPd4Xp2gpYw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

[josh_cat_eyes]

Outside of Saint John I believe there is a TONE of opportunities for amalgamation. Sussex & Sussex Corner, Atholville & Campbelton, Moncton should be expanding its borders north and west. Fredericton & New Maryland could probably work as well.