Palladium/Corel Centre/ Scotiabank Place/Canadian Tire Centre

[Harley613]

I was very interested while reading about the Amway Arena in Orlando being replaced 21 years after opening due to inadequacies in it's design.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amway_Arena

It has now been 16 years since Scotiabank Place has opened. i wonder if it will also be a victim of poor planning and execution. I don't think we have had a serious discussion on here in a while about the ridiculous location and design of Scotiabank Place. If you people are interested, let's open up a debate!

[Luker]

Certainly an interesting discussion. But I doubt the taxpayers or Mr. Melynk have any interest in contributing to the cost of a new arena(especially with Landsdowne). Secondly, while the arena has some critical flaws, i.e., geographical placement, a insufficient parking ring road which is tasked to absorb nearly 100% of vehicles at SPB, lack of a 417 onramp directly connected to rear parking lots(they planned it originally but it was not up to MTO standards), limited hallway size & vendor and washroom areas, inadequate amount of stairs & elevators, insufficient smoking zones, lack of communal area, etc.

Most of the aforementioned problems are customer service related that dont directly effect the Senators management and bottom line; as long as citizens continue to show up in droves willing to pay the price of admission it won't matter much.

Orlando Arena's problems were more detrimental to their operating conditions:

Experts stated that the arena was outdated since the day its doors first opened. Although it was built to NBA specifications at the time, construction began right before mid level luxury seating and lower level club seating became the de facto standard (the arena lacks both of these features). The Orlando Magic's desire for a major renovation of the building dates all the way back to 1994 when it was only five years old, as the team was seeking to increase revenue by expanding the limited retail & concession space and luxury seating .In 1996, the team spent $100,000 to have Conventions Sports & Leisure of Minneapolis study and determine renovation ideas. Major renovation was beginning to seem unfeasible in 1997 when the task-force determined that the cost of implementing everything that the team wanted would reach up to $75 million.

And

The arena originally seated 15,291 but all the original seats were replaced with narrower ones between 1994 and 1995, increasing capacity by over 2,000 to 17,519.

[eternallyme]

I doubt it will be replaced for at least about 15-20 years personally, and when the time comes, I am guessing it will be replaced by another building in the same general site.

[Luker]

Agreed, unfortunately the formula has been proven and the citizenry has demonstrated its inclination for the status quo; hopefully that can change with time and the growing presence of sustainable living and the principles of urbanism in our societies. Extra consideration should be given to the fact that there is little chance that a suitable land parcel will still be available within the greenbelt in 15-20 years from now. (Insert NCC & Lebreton Flats joke here)

[KHOOLE]

This is a timely discussion that should be seriously considered.

There is no doubt that Scotiabank Place has no more than 10 or 15 years left for its glory. Finestone wanted to build the Palladium at LeBreton Flats and building it 30 kms out of downtown was an urban design mistake.

It is timely because the City is contemplating a casino downtown. Since the east-west LRT is crossing the north-south O-train in the Bayview Yards/LeBreton Flats area and there is presently planning for a mixed used development also, as well as having about 8 major hotel chains next door and Little Italy and Chinatown within a stone's throw, why not start planning for a combined arena/casino operation to envigorate downtown?

Also, the O-Train could be extended south to the airport and north to Gatineau to link with the Rapibus/Lac Leamy Casino operation.

Let's plan ahead and not wait for another Lansdowne Park kerfuffle.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by KHOOLE

This is a timely discussion that should be seriously considered.

There is no doubt that Scotiabank Place has no more than 10 or 15 years left for its glory. Finestone wanted to build the Palladium at LeBreton Flats and building it 30 kms out of downtown was an urban design mistake.

I will stand corrected if necessary but I don't seem to recall Bruce Firestone wanting to build it at LeBreton. He was Kanata all the way because his company, Terrace Investments, owned a lot of land he wanted to develop out there around the arena, and that would provide financial leverage for the team and building.

[JeffB]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I will stand corrected if necessary but I don't seem to recall Bruce Firestone wanting to build it at LeBreton. He was Kanata all the way because his company, Terrace Investments, owned a lot of land he wanted to develop out there around the arena, and that would provide financial leverage for the team and building.

In an article he wrote about the construction of the venue in the last couple of years, he said that he did inquire with the NCC about building it at LeBreton and for all intents and purposes they said no. He didn't pursue it any further, choosing to try for a bigger development out in Kanata, which got reduced due to an objection to the OMB.

I think it got either posted or linked to here somewhere.

[JeffB]

Originally Posted by Luker

Orlando Arena's problems were more detrimental to their operating conditions:

Experts stated that the arena was outdated since the day its doors first opened. Although it was built to NBA specifications at the time, construction began right before mid level luxury seating and lower level club seating became the de facto standard (the arena lacks both of these features). The Orlando Magic's desire for a major renovation of the building dates all the way back to 1994 when it was only five years old, as the team was seeking to increase revenue by expanding the limited retail & concession space and luxury seating .In 1996, the team spent $100,000 to have Conventions Sports & Leisure of Minneapolis study and determine renovation ideas. Major renovation was beginning to seem unfeasible in 1997 when the task-force determined that the cost of implementing everything that the team wanted would reach up to $75 million.

And

The arena originally seated 15,291 but all the original seats were replaced with narrower ones between 1994 and 1995, increasing capacity by over 2,000 to 17,519.

The late 80's NBA expansion came at what ended up being a bit of a transition time for arena construction. I think the Palace of Auburn Hills in Detroit was the first to have those revenue sources - if not, there weren't many around. The big boom of mid-level luxury suite construction didn't really take off for another few years. So the arenas being built for the expansion still subscribed to the older model with fewer suites, all in the high levels. The Target Center in Minneapolis is the only one of the 4 arenas linked to that expansion that still hosts an NBA team. And it was was built a year or 2 later, with the Wolves using the Metrodome in the interim.

Since the majority of NHL and NBA teams have buildings that are less than 20 years old I think the question of replacing arenas from the most recent construction boom would be related to what new amenity can be offered that teams feel they can't do without. At least rather than buildings showing age and needing to be replaced. I don't know what that new amenity would be at this point though - but that would be an interesting thing to discuss too.

[J.OT13]

Planning a casino/arena entertainment area in Le Breton would certainly be a good idea, but don't expect any foresight on the part of anyone... ever.

Besides, Melnyk is always looking to build around the Palladium, from soccer stadiums to casinos, so I highly doubt that he would ever want to move the team in the city.

That said, it should be in Le Breton

[MaxHeadroom]

Ottawa is a car city, SBP needs to have a sea of parking around it and decent highway access, period.

[AuxTown]

For the newbies who haven't seen this article before:

http://www.obj.ca/Opinion/Bruce-Fire...is-in-Kanata/1

I reference it quite frequently when people ask the usual question: "Why the hell did they build your arena so far outside of town?"

I wish things happened differently, but now we are pretty much stuck with the current location for at least 20 years. I would love to see LRT out to SBP within that time, but that's probably a pipe dream. It would actually be quite fun taking a nice smooth train ride on a grade-separated line to and from the games. Not to mention that a line to Kanata would serve well over 100000 commuters every day!

[KHOOLE]

Originally Posted by O-Town Hockey

For the newbies who haven't seen this article before:

http://www.obj.ca/Opinion/Bruce-Fire...is-in-Kanata/1

I reference it quite frequently when people ask the usual question: "Why the hell did they build your arena so far outside of town?"

I wish things happened differently, but now we are pretty much stuck with the current location for at least 20 years. I would love to see LRT out to SBP within that time, but that's probably a pipe dream. It would actually be quite fun taking a nice smooth train ride on a grade-separated line to and from the games. Not to mention that a line to Kanata would serve well over 100000 commuters every day!

20 years is a very long time in the world of business and of professional sports. Eugene Melnyk was just starting out in the time-released drug business 20 years ago and his business developed 100 times in the following 10 years. He then bought the Senators and could very well sell the Sens for a profit....or he could dump Scotiabank Place and build a combination Hockey Arena + Casino + hotel in the downtown core..who knows!!!

What I would consider a more realistic development concept would be for a smooth grade-separated line from Kanata as well as from Orléans and also from Barrhaven (maybe also from Gatineau), all converging toward downtown Ottawa where tall condo buildings are presently sprouting up like mushrooms with no end in sight.

[eternallyme]

If that area develops into what is planned - a retail, business and entertainment area - then once the time comes to replace, it might be best just to replace with a new building in the existing parking lots.

[Dado]

I wonder just what would happen if someone actually did go ahead and build a casino+arena complex at Bayview/LeBreton even without a commitment to move the Senators?

Just how long does anyone think the Senators could realistically remain at SBP in Kanata?

For one thing, the new arena would likely vacuum up most major non-NHL events, other than maybe whatever event that was this summer that saw hundreds of camper trailers parked at SBP. Whatever loyalty people have to going to SBP for Sens games, the same cannot be said of most other events or the people who plan them.

Any international hockey games would almost certainly be played at LeBreton, especially if someone at the City comes to their senses and extends the O-Train to the airport. Again, if you're organizing an international hockey tournament in which you expect fans to fly in from abroad, you're probably going to prefer a location in downtown Ottawa that people can easily get to to one in Kanata.

Once people become habituated to going to LeBreton for most events other than NHL games, the pressure to move the Sens would inexorably mount as well.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Dado

I wonder just what would happen if someone actually did go ahead and build a casino+arena complex at Bayview/LeBreton even without a commitment to move the Senators?

Just how long does anyone think the Senators could realistically remain at SBP in Kanata?

For one thing, the new arena would likely vacuum up most major non-NHL events, other than maybe whatever event that was this summer that saw hundreds of camper trailers parked at SBP. Whatever loyalty people have to going to SBP for Sens games, the same cannot be said of most other events or the people who plan them.

Any international hockey games would almost certainly be played at LeBreton, especially if someone at the City comes to their senses and extends the O-Train to the airport. Again, if you're organizing an international hockey tournament in which you expect fans to fly in from abroad, you're probably going to prefer a location in downtown Ottawa that people can easily get to to one in Kanata.

Once people become habituated to going to LeBreton for most events other than NHL games, the pressure to move the Sens would inexorably mount as well.

With the current economy, who in their right mind would come up with the money to build a second NHL calibre arena in Ottawa? I cannot see a business plan that could possibly support this. The only situation where I could see this happening is when Scotia Bank Place is booked most days of the year.

[KHOOLE]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

With the current economy, who in their right mind would come up with the money to build a second NHL calibre arena in Ottawa? I cannot see a business plan that could possibly support this. The only situation where I could see this happening is when Scotia Bank Place is booked most days of the year.

Ottawa is a Capital city with a lot of tourist-oriented amenities in the downtown core and regional area. Now that the Ottawa Convention Centre has made its mark as "Canada's Meeting Place", what's to prevent Ottawa from building up on this momentum with an arena/casino structure to accomodate large crowds for high level conventions and high-class entertainment?

The Ottawa area is presently said to be the fastest growing area in Canada. It's population is 1.2 million with 300,000 in Gatineau and 100,000 in Orléans. The central cores of Ottawa and Gatineau are getting denser with many tall condo buildings being built in both cities.

The LeBreton-Bayview district is within walking distance from the entire central urban area which includes government, hotel, business and condo buildings, including the Convention Centre, the Westin Hotel and the Rideau Centre on the east side of the Rideau Canal and its locks.

The NCC has been promoting Confederation Boulevard, the Museum of Civilisation and the Art Gallery for decades and the Chaudiere Falls beside the War Museum are just begging to be developed into a world-class tourist site second only to the Niagara Falls.

To top all of this, the LeBreton-Bayview district is at the intersection of the O-Train and the Transitway, planned to be converted to LRT. The federal government is contributing a third of the cost of the LRT. To get value-for-money on its investment, it should want guaranteed high use of the planned underground transit line. That means usage of the tunnel 24/7, not just to go to work in the morning and back home at night.

We could go on and on....how much material do you need for a business plan?

As for the "current economy" argument, that's very debatable fiscal matter!

Common sense and political savvy say that the time to spend and invest is when the economy is slipping down. Harper knew that two years ago when everybody and his brother were buying and hiring to fix up and renovate their homes to get tax credits. That's why OSEG is going ahead with Lansdowne Park with few retail and office tenants in sight. Bill Shenkman's grandfather, Wolfe, was investing in building apartment buildings in Centretown during the Great Depression.

Ottawa needs to bring life back to an area that was the cradle of its very existence. No lumber industry, no Capital City. An arena combined with a casino with rapid transit at LeBreton/Bayview should flourish and NHL hockey would then follow and come back to its home turf.

[BlackRedGold]

Talk of replacing SBP is ridiculous. There is no business case for replacing it until some new money making in arena innovation comes along making all the current arenas obsolete. When that happens is something no one can predict.

But who the hell is going to be stupid enough to spend all the money on building an NHL sized arena, and the land it sits on, without a tenant? And it's not like the city is going to help out whoever attempts to build this. It's not like Ottawa is a city like Markham that needs to put itself on the map.

If and when SBP needs replacing, it will probably be done on the current parking lot since it is owned by the franchise. To buy the land in a better location to build a new arena would cost far too much to make it viable.

[toaster]

Originally Posted by KHOOLE

The Ottawa area is presently said to be the fastest growing area in Canada. It's population is 1.2 million with 300,000 in Gatineau and 100,000 in Orléans. The central cores of Ottawa and Gatineau are getting denser with many tall condo buildings being built in both cities.

1.2 Million is the Ottawa CMA.
Gatineau and Orleans are included in that number. In fact, Orleans is also included in the 883,391 people that make up the City of Ottawa. Trying to inflate numbers to make us appear bigger is not a good strategy.

[Harley613]

Originally Posted by toaster

1.2 Million is the Ottawa CMA.
Gatineau and Orleans are included in that number. In fact, Orleans is also included in the 883,391 people that make up the City of Ottawa. Trying to inflate numbers to make us appear bigger is not a good strategy.

depends what metric you are looking at...the NCR has almost 1.5 million and we are talking about Eastern Ontario's hockey arena here effectively...so really we are talking about an arena that serves around 1.7 million people.

[Dado]

Originally Posted by toaster

1.2 Million is the Ottawa CMA.
Gatineau and Orleans are included in that number. In fact, Orleans is also included in the 883,391 people that make up the City of Ottawa. Trying to inflate numbers to make us appear bigger is not a good strategy.

I don't think that's what he was doing. "It's population is 1.2 million with 300,000 in Gatineau and 100,000 in Orléans" to me is simply stating the total population of the region and pointing out that 300,000 of that 1.2 million is in Gatineau and another 100,000 is in Orléans.

Past discussions on SBP have often made mention of the fact that it is downright inconvenient for people in Gatineau and Orleans to get to, so I think he was just pointing out that about a third of the metropolitan population has a very inconvenient journey to get to SBP, whereas a downtown location would be far more convenient overall to the entire metropolitan population.