Downtown Pedestrian District?

[verybadgnome]

Seeing the press on the Nueces Bike Plan got me thinking about a Pedestrian only zone/plaza. With all of the alternative east-west streets through downtown and the scores of pedestrians in some areas I think such an area could be justified. Maybe 6th street from Congress to IH-35 frontage. This could enable more cafes and better use of the sidewalks and street. Heck there could even be additional, albeit very small footprint, businesses in the center, sorta like what I saw on the median of a Tel Aviv street. The demand seems to be there since many weekends this strip is closed to auto traffic anyway. Pedestrians would be able to walk downtown without having to worry about cars in a more relaxed manner.

As far as cutting off an east-west route I would point out the S. Lamar doesn't have access to Mopac from Bartons Springs Rd to Ben White and its not the end of the world for those folks.

[Scottolini]

6th being shut down to cars other than for special events, or weekend nights will not happen. It, along with 5th are crucial E/W arteries through downtown.

[Scottolini]

I really don't feel closing an entire street to cars is necessary. You can have a nice pedestrian experience on a street while still allowing automobile traffic. The Cesar Chavez and 2nd St. reconstructions are proof. Brazos St., along with parts of Colorado St. and more of 2nd St. will soon be rebuilt to Great Streets standards as well.

[wwmiv]

There are plazas in San Antonio that used to be streets that have been transitioned exactly how you've described. They don't really work out as well as we'd like because there isn't the population density to make it fully useful or utilized. We aren't big enough yet.

[verybadgnome]

What vehicular traffic is hampered will be made up by better walkability. Even Winchester, VA - which is hardly cutting edge - has what I'm talking about in their downtown:



And I wouldn't say the pedestrian experience is that nice, not compared to many cities Austria or Germany where central plazas are the norm. San Antonio does have a no car thoroughfare in the riverwalk which isn't exactly what I'm talking about but nevertheless does provide for that experience. Also with the number of new hotel rooms and condos I think there will be sufficient need for this.

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by verybadgnome

What vehicular traffic is hampered will be made up by better walkability. Even Winchester, VA - which is hardly cutting edge - has what I'm talking about in their downtown.

And I wouldn't say the pedestrian experience is that nice, not compared to many cities Austria or Germany where central plazas are the norm. San Antonio does have a no car thoroughfare in the riverwalk which isn't exactly what I'm talking about but nevertheless does provide for that experience. Also with the number of new hotel rooms and condos I think there will be sufficient need for this.

No, San Antonio actually had places that USED to be roads that are now plazas. The river walk is irrelevant to this discussion.

There is a middle ground here to consider: Small cities can get away with things like this because removing streets won't actually impair vehicular mobility, Large cities can get away with things like this because they can reasonably claim that pedestrian mobility is just as high a priority as vehicular mobility - and in many cases is more important because cars are illogical (think NYC), Middle sized cities cannot do these things because they do not yet have the number of pedestrians to claim that those needs are equal to vehicle commuter needs.

The exception here are middle sized cities that made these changes when they were small cities. Further growth is made around these changes and eventually it doesn't matter. San Antonio is a good example of this.

[JAM]

Originally Posted by verybadgnome

And I wouldn't say the pedestrian experience is that nice, not compared to many cities Austria or Germany where central plazas are the norm.

Agreed. You really don't even have to compare it to any excellent cities to see it needs work. I often see cars going down streets ~50mph, that is not pleasant at all when you are on foot or bicycle. Even 2nd St. has enough drivers who are "trained" to think they have the right away to make it unpleasant. The cross walk at 1st and CC may as well be removed, drivers regularly do not yield to pedestrians at this intersection as they come eastbound off CC and turn south down 1st. 5th and 6th is a race track, if you go the speed limit in your car people will zip around you because they think you are going too slow.

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by JAM

5th and 6th is a race track, if you go the speed limit in your car people will zip around you because they think you are going too slow.

I wouldn't say often. I see this from the opposite view-point. Many times people are driving substantially under the speed limit, and it is completely logical to pass them because they are incompetent drivers. Yes, there is an occasional speed demon who will pass anything going any speed, but this is a minority of incidences in my experience.

[M1EK]

1. Ped districts fell out of favor among planners here in the last couple decades after mostly bad experiences with them -- almost none of our cities have strong enough pedestrian life to make them thrive; in most cases they end up being magnets for crime (a la Honolulu's).

2. 5th/6th speed; be aware that if you are changing lanes rapidly to speed around people on a corridor with such high pedestrian activity, you may in fact kill somebody.

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by M1EK

2. 5th/6th speed; be aware that if you are changing lanes rapidly to speed around people on a corridor with such high pedestrian activity, you may in fact kill somebody.

I didn't advocate for changing lanes rapidly. I said it was reasonable to pass someone. Changing lanes rapidly and speeding around someone recklessly is beyond stupid.

[priller]

The one street they've talked about doing this for is tiny Sabine Street, which is a 3 block, one lane street in downtown. I don't think most people even know it's there. As part of the Waller Creek tunnel project they've proposed shutting Sabine off to almost all traffic and making it the "Sabine Promenade". Personally I think it's a great idea. That road is very little traveled as it is, it's very narrow so it's a more natural fit for a pedestrian area.

And hopefully they'll run off the homeless and crack dealers before that happens.

As for 6th street east of Congress, what I would love to see happen is widen the sidewalks and remove a lane (or two) and reduce the speed on it. The cars don't bother me as much as the speeding cars do.

[Downtown_Austin]

Originally Posted by priller

The cars don't bother me as much as the speeding cars do.

Amen. Slow down 5th and 6th Street.

[JAM]

Originally Posted by wwmiv

I wouldn't say often. I see this from the opposite view-point. Many times people are driving substantially under the speed limit, and it is completely logical to pass them because they are incompetent drivers.

They are not incompetent, they are tourists bringing money into the city. Please don't honk at them, it just creates more of a distraction for everyone, including those who know where they are going. It also make the tourist think Austin is full of arsholes. I can't stand when some prick honks at a tourist, its hard to tell where the honk is coming from and causing me to re-actively cover my brakes.

[llamaorama]

This is just a personal observation so take it with a grain of salt:

Being in Denver I noticed the 16th street mall had lots of foot traffic, but didn't come across as having lots of stuff along it that was particularly exciting, at least to me. Why so many people were there, I didn't know. All I can guess is that it forms a useful pedestrian friendly corridor across the busy downtown district.

What does this mean if Austin tried something similar? Who knows but its probably a complex piece of urban planning and not a cut and dry "build it they will come" situation that other cities adopted when trying pedestrian streets in the 1970s.

[CONative]

Originally Posted by llamaorama

This is just a personal observation so take it with a grain of salt:

Being in Denver I noticed the 16th street mall had lots of foot traffic, but didn't come across as having lots of stuff along it that was particularly exciting, at least to me. Why so many people were there, I didn't know. All I can guess is that it forms a useful pedestrian friendly corridor across the busy downtown district.

What does this mean if Austin tried something similar? Who knows but its probably a complex piece of urban planning and not a cut and dry "build it they will come" situation that other cities adopted when trying pedestrian streets in the 1970s.

16th St Mall in Denver has numerous mainstream and unique restaurants, indoor/outdoor cafe's, breweries, a multi-plex stadium-style movie theatre, Lucky Strike bowling alley, some clothing stores and several other main-stream retail stores, tourist shops, 2 multi-level malls "on the mall" (Denver Pavilions and Tabor Center), a few bars and clubs, hotels, offices, residences (apts, lofts, etc), and free eco-friendly buses that are the only vehicles allowed on the street. Maybe you only walked a block or two? The only things 16th St Mall is missing is a major department store and grocery store....although it does have a Ross and Walgreen's.

[JoninATX]

Pedestrian walkways are nice but I don't think it will happen anytime soon., what needs to be done is a mixed use of venue's like cafe's, bars, offices...,also infrastructure, like resurfacing and widing sidewalks using more street lighting around the area and could use some streetscape like planting trees & plants, and as for traffic and speeders have more patrol men around, there always in cars, bikes, horses around town

[llamaorama]

Right, I stayed at the Courtyard Marriott and walked the whole thing, and rode the buses.

What I meant to say was that the mall connects various blocks with the stuff you mentioned, where some have more than others. Without them the mall itself and whatever random stuff fills the space in between would hardly be an attraction. There's like a positive synergy going on.

[KevinFromTexas]

The closest thing San Antonio has to a pedestrian street/mall is Blum Street which is located between the Menger Hotel & Rivercenter Mall near the Alamo. It's pretty nice, but even it doesn't get that much foot traffic, plus it's only a block long. San Antonio does have a lot of public plazas, including Main Plaza and Alamo Plaza, along with some nice urban parks, but those a bit different from these strictly pedestrianized streets.

Blum Street.