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  #1  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2008, 5:59 AM
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Exclamation Austin & San Antonio: - Moving freight line for commuter rail could cost up to $2.4B

I hope we can get some discussion from both cities here. I'm curious to hear what the San Antonio forumers think about an Austin-San Antonio Commuter Train, and the steps to get there.

From the Austin American-Statesman
http://www.statesman.com/news/content/news/stories/local/07/31/0731rail.html

COMMUTER RAIL

Moving freight line for commuter rail could cost up to $2.4 billion
Study details cost of bypass to open up tracks for intercity commuters, but not how to pay for it.

By Ben Wear

AMERICAN-STATESMAN STAFF


Thursday, July 31, 2008

Building a 145-mile-long freight rail bypass around Austin and San Antonio at a cost of $2.4 billion, making commuter rail possible between the cities, would generate about $1.4 billion in public benefits over 20 years, a study to be released today says.

That $2.4 billion, however, does not include the estimated $600 million cost of building passenger rail between Austin and San Antonio, or the $41 million annual operating costs estimated by the agency charged with running such a line.

And at this point, no matter the public benefit, it remains unclear how either the state or Central Texas governments will raise the money for the freight line bypass or the commuter line.

The Texas Department of Transportation, which did the study, and Union Pacific, which owns the existing freight tracks through the area, have been in talks for many years over whether such a bypass is necessary and feasible — and who would pay for it. The agency and the railroad would have to reach some sort of agreement before any sort of relocation occurs.

The Central Texas Rail Relocation Study looked at various alternatives to how freight currently moves through Central and South Texas. More than two dozen freight trains a day typically run on the Union Pacific corridor between Taylor and San Antonio, passing at street level past almost 200 city roads and highways.

The long, creeping trains cause delays for motorists at those crossings — San Marcos in particular is bedeviled — as well as a safety hazard. Four people died in various train accidents in San Antonio in 2004.

And the frequency and idiosyncratic scheduling of those freight trains on the current track, controlled by Union Pacific, would render commuter rail service nonviable, transportation officials say, because guaranteeing on-time departures and arrivals would be impossible.

Most of those trains are carrying loads destined for points beyond San Antonio and Taylor, so commuter rail advocates have been talking for years about a possible bypass. The 110-page report by TxDOT looks at each segment of such a bypass in detail, outlining the needs for overpasses, new track, straightening of some sections, smoothing out of areas too steep for greater freight speeds and a possible shortcut from Bastrop to Red Rock east of San Marcos.

The report also attempts to estimate benefits to the public from having a commuter rail system such as lower emissions from freight trains and reduction of waiting time for cars at rail crossings on the existing Taylor-to-Austin-to-San Antonio line. Property values in the vicinity of the line, for instance, would increase by $106 million, TxDOT estimates.

Officials had estimated in the past that a bypass of Austin would cost about $700 million. According to the TxDOT report, a bypass from Taylor, through Lockhart to south of San Marcos instead would cost about $883 million. If the bypass instead continued south from Lockhart to Seguin and then into San Antonio, the cost would be about $1.72 billion.

If the line were to go from Seguin around the south side of San Antonio, the total cost would be $2.4 billion, the report says.

A Union Pacific official, in a letter to TxDOT, said he does not like that last alternative. That more circuitous route would add 15 miles to many east-west routes, using about 1 million extra gallons of fuel annually, Union Pacific Vice President of Network Planning and Operations John H. Rebensdorf said in a letter.

Texans passed a constitutional amendment in 2005 creating a rail relocation fund. However, the Legislature in 2007 failed to appropriate any money for the fund. And, if it does, the Houston and Dallas-Fort Worth areas have relocation needs of their own that would compete for any available money.

The Austin-San Antonio Intermunicipal Commuter Rail District, created by the Legislature to build and run passenger trains between the two cities, has almost no taxing authority; it can collect some property taxes from development that might occur around train stations. In its decade-long existence, the agency has so far engaged only in planning, using federal grants.

Officials with the district have been talking to TxDOT and Amtrak, which runs a few trains a week between the two cities (and points beyond) and is often delayed by Union Pacific trains, about the possibility of using Amtrak trains for some sort of commuter service.

$2.4 billion

Estimated cost of building a freight rail bypass around Austin and San Antonio

$1.4 billion

Amount of public benefits over 20 years

$600 million

Estimated cost of building passenger rail between Austin and San Antonio
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  #2  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2008, 6:06 AM
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I think both cities should cough up the money for this. We should work together to better our region. Since it says that many of the trains are for destinations beyond us, a bypass seems a no brainer.
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Old Posted Jul 31, 2008, 12:11 PM
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$2.4 billion to reroute train tracks? Do you guys use golden spikes down there?
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Old Posted Jul 31, 2008, 1:12 PM
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Do you guys believe me now that this isn't going to happen? That's $2.4 billion to relocate the tracks, and no guarantee that UP will even go there (may have to pay them to get them to move; state can't force them to).
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Old Posted Jul 31, 2008, 1:27 PM
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Ouch The prospects for this thing happening in the next couple of decades looks pretty bleak, to say the least.
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Old Posted Jul 31, 2008, 2:13 PM
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Quote:
The long, creeping trains cause delays for motorists at those crossings — San Marcos in particular is bedeviled —
That's the ever-lovin' truth. San Marcos gets like 24 trains of one sort or other going through a day.
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Old Posted Jul 31, 2008, 2:28 PM
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The cost are substantial, but I think it is needed. San Antonio/Austin already has more pop. growth than Houston and is very close to DFW. New construction and corp. relocations are a different story. Rail will enhance the quality of life in the region and make it more competitive with DFW and Houston. I also think the public benefits are low balled.
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Old Posted Jul 31, 2008, 2:40 PM
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Why can't commuter and freight use the same rails? Don't trains run on schedules? They do in the northeast. And I seem to remember hearing train whistles at about the same time every night growing up on the northeast side of SA.

It seems a much simpler solution to just build a few bypass areas for those few times that a scheduled train is coming the other direction... and allow them to pass. That's a lot simpler than building a whole new railroad.
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Old Posted Jul 31, 2008, 2:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeeper View Post
$2.4 billion to reroute train tracks? Do you guys use golden spikes down there?
Really! I assume much of the cost is not just building the tracks but also acquiring land to for the new route. Still, it seems excessive to me.
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Old Posted Jul 31, 2008, 3:08 PM
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The reason Amtrak is often many hours late just between Austin and Dallas is the freight traffic on these very tracks. No, freight doesn't run on schedules.
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Old Posted Jul 31, 2008, 3:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M1EK View Post
Do you guys believe me now that this isn't going to happen? That's $2.4 billion to relocate the tracks, and no guarantee that UP will even go there (may have to pay them to get them to move; state can't force them to).
This is why the state is trying to hurl Amtrak at them, so they can do the bare minimum of track relocation and just overrule UP on track priority later-- but if you pay attention to the way the cost estimates are listed, UP and associates are definitely trying to make this hard for the state.

$2.4 billion shouldn't scare the state... but it will definitely scare the living bajeezus out of the citizens and municipal gov'ts.

Also, on the topic of Amtrak: they're a tempest in a teacup. They have a legal right they refuse to exercise. Even in a place where the local rail conglom basically fluffs their pillows at night, they end up getting knocked around an awful lot. That's why the 2.5 hour Portland-Seattle run usually takes 2.75 hours, which is enough of a deterrent for some riders and why it hasn't been a big commuter link and won't be until 5 years of track relocation and bypasses are done this fall.
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Old Posted Jul 31, 2008, 4:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schertz1 View Post
The cost are substantial, but I think it is needed. San Antonio/Austin already has more pop. growth than Houston and is very close to DFW. New construction and corp. relocations are a different story. Rail will enhance the quality of life in the region and make it more competitive with DFW and Houston. I also think the public benefits are low balled.
No it doesn't. Houston has more growth than SA's metro and Austin's metro combined. It's only that close this year because of the Katrina effect (everyone leaving back to NO). Check for yourself: http://recenter.tamu.edu/data/popm00/

Anyway, I wish that the rail will happen though, but it looks to be VERY expensive and this is just to get UP to move. But, if it costs this much just for Austin to SA rail, I wonder what the "Texas T-Bone" looks like.
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Old Posted Jul 31, 2008, 4:19 PM
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I like the line about being more competitive with Houston and DFW, as though they compete with each other all the time.
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Old Posted Jul 31, 2008, 4:29 PM
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Originally Posted by alexjon View Post
I like the line about being more competitive with Houston and DFW, as though they compete with each other all the time.
I know right. A commuter rail line between the cities won't all of a sudden boost them to Houston and DFW's level either. Houston and DFW are building (or about the build) their fair share of new rail lines (light rail and commuter).
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Old Posted Jul 31, 2008, 4:53 PM
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I know right. A commuter rail line between the cities won't all of a sudden boost them to Houston and DFW's level either. Houston and DFW are building (or about the build) their fair share of new rail lines (light rail and commuter).
If transit-wise, Houston was 10 years behind Dallas, I imagine Austin will be 10 years behind Houston and San Antonio 10 years behind Austin. Just a ballpark guess. Austin rail in 2014! San Antonio rail in 2024! Yeehaw.
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Old Posted Jul 31, 2008, 4:54 PM
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2.4 Billion?!?!?

The cities are less than 2 hours apart in moderate traffic. The economics will either have to get much better or the traffic much worse before someone feels the need to push this through...
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Old Posted Jul 31, 2008, 5:43 PM
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$2.4 billion shouldn't scare the state... but it will definitely scare the living bajeezus out of the citizens and municipal gov'ts.
Hmm, I wonder how this compares to their planned expendatures for freeways over the next decade or so. . .

Not that I'm saying they should totally abandon freeway building in the two metros themselves. But once SH130 is completed, this rail link should become their main priority for the corridor, and they should call it a day (or a lifetime) on freeway building between Austin and SA.
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Old Posted Jul 31, 2008, 6:02 PM
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Hmm, I wonder how this compares to their planned expendatures for freeways over the next decade or so. . .

Not that I'm saying they should totally abandon freeway building in the two metros themselves. But once SH130 is completed, this rail link should become their main priority for the corridor, and they should call it a day (or a lifetime) on freeway building between Austin and SA.
Nobody knows how much roads cost, even though the state tries to tell people. They tell them so they'll take more care in their driving and such, yanno-- but if the media ever sided with rail, it could obviously be used to tell people how good a deal they'd be getting.
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Old Posted Jul 31, 2008, 8:25 PM
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Man you throw a "B" out there and people go nuts. Put it into perspective. This would be a huge project. The estimate does not seem "that" outlandish.

It cost St. Louis more than a billion to build a new runway at Lambert
Metro-Link (LRT): cost more than 1.3 billion
New Yankee Stadium: 1.3 billion


For this project, a minimum of about 1800 acres of ROW must be acquired.

UP wants to build a parallel line through San Antonio. I wonder how this would affect this estimate.
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Old Posted Jul 31, 2008, 8:33 PM
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The actual line itself isn't all that expensive, just $600 million. The biggest part would be having UP move their tracks east. I wonder though, couldn't they build the rail near 130? There's already a corridor in place with it, so it would make sense.
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