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  #1  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2008, 3:26 PM
PTSA PTSA is offline
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Austin & San Antonio

AT&T moving to Dallas is a wake up call for both areas. Bad bruise to deal with.

Immediate action is required to reposition these two metro areas within a proper position in the global community with respect to prestige and strength. Think of this loss as a call to action to be better.

First you can not be diminished both areas in size and prestige by a lack of a world class airport. If you except this you will be destined to the last rows in a movie theater. It is time to put away the differences between the two metro areas and work together. When the two areas work together as a metroplex then Dallas and other large cities will tremble. You have large growth rates on your side. They do not, and they know it. They will be left in the dust in the end.

On the airport issue, build a brand new one half way between the two cities with 80 gates at a minimum. Don't stop there, plan and eventually build a runway capable of landing the subspace orbital air crafts. Don't stop there, plan separate runway capabilities to accommodate future post space shuttle vehicles. Don't dismiss this as Science fiction. There are plenty of times now that the space shuttle can not land in Florida or California. The next generation of crafts will make this more routine and a common occurrence. You know where it all goes from there. Both will be landing at capable airports in the future but you have to plan now. You have NASA in Texas, work on it. This is a competitive race so it needs to be played as one. Go after an air carrier airport hub (Dallas?). Bring it to the airport from anywhere you can. There are plenty of carriers unhappy with their current status at inefficient hubs. When globalization is a call this will put the globe on your doorstep. This will set you up with a solid platform to build future economic gains.

Oil industry. All the oil companies are at risk in the future. If they do not diversify properly then they will go the way the check printing companies are going. Time to act San Antonio. The San Antonio area is a prime area for solar energy companies. Get them now! Did I mention battery storage technology. Toyota is a risk with each gas price increase. Think alternative transport prototypes. A new industry, involve Toyota. Launch it in San Antonio.

San Antonio. Start acting as a gateway to Latin and South America. Grow this industry. The airport is a start.

Windows. With the rise of the Mac recently the outlook for Dell is a risk. Time to act Austin. There are tons of disgruntled employees with the high cost of living at One Infinite Loop. It's time to start relocation talks. Steve will not be there forever.

Austin is much more suitable to all the high tech companies that are presently located in the Dallas area. Act on it make the necessary changes. Diversify beyond the game industry. You have a terrific pool of talent to do that.

San Antonio. Its time to think Disney. Start the talks. The airport will get you there. Travel and leisure component manufacturing is ideal in San Antonio. Go for it. There are firms on the west coast paying high corporate taxes and dealing with a high cost of living and they may consider a move.

Oh yes, did I mention, with a global airport where will AT&T eventually be?

This should have been anticipated. Global status requires global actions you can not fall asleep at the wheel. As one prominent general once said "The best defense is an offense"
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  #2  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2008, 3:41 PM
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Thanks for your suggestions, but you forget that San Antonio is a Military Town (tm) and Austin is a College Town (tm) so there will always be incentive to grow industry there, even if it is something like USAA or programmer farms.
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  #3  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2008, 5:12 PM
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Wow, I actually spit up a bit laughing after reading this, I can't tell if you are a teenager with a good imagination or a city booster gone bad but lets look at some of your points then refocus your energy a bit. And to start let me say it is not bad to have plans and dreams for your city, but one must be realistic about it first. Here we go:


Quote:
Originally Posted by PTSA View Post
AT&T moving to Dallas is a wake up call for both areas. Bad bruise to deal with.
It is not a bruise to Austin. there are no articles in the Austin Biz journal discussing how horrid this is to the Austin Economy, unless I missed it, then please post it here.

Quote:
Immediate action is required to reposition these two metro areas within a proper position in the global community with respect to prestige and strength. Think of this loss as a call to action to be better.
What exactly should their status and proper position be in your opinion?

Quote:
First you can not be diminished both areas in size and prestige by a lack of a world class airport. If you except this you will be destined to the last rows in a movie theater.
Austin has a world class airport, especially for a city its size. SAT is renewing its terminals which is good

Quote:
It is time to put away the differences between the two metro areas and work together. When the two areas work together as a metroplex then Dallas and other large cities will tremble.
No they won’t. Metroplex is actually a marketing term created years ago. It means nothing geographically or demographically but I digress. Cities don’t tremble.
Boston does not tremble at New York. San Diego does not tremble at LA.
Manchester does not Tremble at London

Quote:
You have large growth rates on your side. They do not, and they know it. They will be left in the dust in the end.
Really, the US census bureau says otherwise. Houston and Dallas are booming (as is much of Texas) On this one you just simply have incorrect information. Hate to burst your bumble.

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On the airport issue, build a brand new one half way between the two cities with 80 gates at a minimum.
Why? So San Marcos and New Branfels grow bigger? And business travellers are not happy having to spend an hour to an hour and half to get to the CBD during peak traffic times. Really bad idea.
And spare me the rail argument. Biz travelers don’t jump on the rail bandwagon as often as locals and it would still take 45-60 minutes to hit a CBD, and those are not the full employment nodes in each city. One should actually just work on expanding each airport and making them better (See Austin above). Air travel is hurting right now due to oil at 140$ a barrel. AvGas and JP-8 is going to stay expensive for a while so this is a market both airports must deal with by attracting service and helping established airlines. Plenty of regions and cities have hubs that are smaller than San Antonio. Building an 80 gate airport (absurd concept if you know anything about aviation) is not going to just attract new service. Central Texas is not Dubai and doesn’t have the multi BILLIONs of dollars such a project would entail, especially since the project would fail. And how exactly are you going to attract some world airline or legacy carrier to hub at your big mega-airport that would eat many square miles of central Texas? With new airports if you build it they don’t always come. (See St Louis East as an example)


Quote:
Don't stop there, plan and eventually build a runway capable of landing the subspace orbital air crafts. Don't stop there, plan separate runway capabilities to accommodate future post space shuttle vehicles.
Right, and how long would that be. I have flown many different types of airplanes and studied a bit of aerospace engineering but didn’t know NASA had changed the policy of landing aircraft with hazardous materials in urban enclaves. When did this change?

Quote:
Don't dismiss this as Science fiction. There are plenty of times now that the space shuttle can not land in Florida or California.
No it has happened once in 28 years, and the shuttle landed in New Mexico. Other landing spots like Moron, Spain and Banjul, Gambia can be used if needed. NASA likes the shuttle to land in Florida, it saves the million dollars it costs to fly it back from Edwards. Both locations remote and not in population centres.



Quote:
The next generation of crafts will make this more routine and a common occurrence. You know where it all goes from there. Both will be landing at capable airports in the future but you have to plan now.
Not at 140$ a barrel you don’t.

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You have NASA in Texas, work on it. This is a competitive race so it needs to be played as one.
With what money? Easier said than done, not counting the fact NASA is a government agency Central Texas has no control over….

Quote:
Go after an air carrier airport hub (Dallas?). Bring it to the airport from anywhere you can.
I'm sure American Airlines would love to spend a billion dollars they don't have and move to your super airport and I am sure Dallas and Fort Worth will just let that happen. Easy right


Quote:
There are plenty of carriers unhappy with their current status at inefficient hubs.
Really? Who? Hubs have closed due to overlapping markets. You have to of the largest hubs in the country within less than an hour flight from Central Texas. How exactly are you randomly creating new O&D demand in the market for this new hub? Not counting Southwest’s point to point service from the area already.


Quote:
When globalization is a call this will put the globe on your doorstep. This will set you up with a solid platform to build future economic gains.
The Globe is already on Texas’ doorstep. In Houston and Dallas and Austin, in that order.

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Oil industry. All the oil companies are at risk in the future.
Haha, thanks. Energy companies are not going anywhere.

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If they do not diversify properly then they will go the way the check printing companies are going. Time to act San Antonio. The San Antonio area is a prime area for solar energy companies. Get them now!
Really, says whom? El Paso has more average days of sunshine and less hail and bad weather…


Quote:
Did I mention battery storage technology.
Well you just did…
Quote:
Toyota is a risk with each gas price increase. Think alternative transport prototypes. A new industry, involve Toyota. Launch it in San Antonio.
And again who is paying for that?

Quote:
San Antonio. Start acting as a gateway to Latin and South America. Grow this industry. The airport is a start.
Its called Geography. San Antonio is out of the way for flights to Central and South America. All it can serve is Mexico, and since there are no connecting oppurtunities all the Mexico traffic is O&D. Miami is north of most of Latin America. It will remain the number one hub. Houston will remain the number 2 hub, with Dallas and Atlanta fighting for 3. Dallas is out of the way for much of the connecting traffic. There is a reason Houston has more service to Mexico than any other US airport, is second to only Miami in cities served in South America. Geography and hub status and O&D to be exact.


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Windows. With the rise of the Mac recently the outlook for Dell is a risk.
Really, that 5% market share of Mac is really a threat…

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Time to act Austin. There are tons of disgruntled employees with the high cost of living at One Infinite Loop.
Says who again?

Quote:
It's time to start relocation talks. Steve will not be there forever.
Here is the phone call: “Hi would you like to spend millions moving your company to Austin. No reason really but we have some disgruntled folks that want other jobs” What could we give you? “Well how about a tax abatement that will not fund our infrastructure properly?” Not interested, bummer dude.



Quote:
Austin is much more suitable to all the high tech companies that are presently located in the Dallas area.
Really? Why? And you know Houston actually has more High Tech jobs than Austin (see US DOL stats) as the former Compaq HQs there is HP and BMC software and many others. Let me guess, you want all those companies to move to Austin also? And your 80 gate airport will need a super huge cargo facility to handle the shipping involved so we are all okay with that…

Quote:
Act on it make the necessary changes. Diversify beyond the game industry. You have a terrific pool of talent to do that.
Game industry?...

Quote:
San Antonio. Its time to think Disney. Start the talks.
Another phone call: “Hi Disney, this is San Antonio, come on over”
Don’t get me wrong it is not bad to try and talk with Disney, but you seem to act like all it takes is a phone call and few lap dances on the business trip of the VP of sales to get them to build a new theme park. That is not how business works.

Quote:
The airport will get you there. Travel and leisure component manufacturing is ideal in San Antonio. Go for it. There are firms on the west coast paying high corporate taxes and dealing with a high cost of living and they may consider a move.
Maybe (your first plausible idea), and to offset the cost of moving you have to give them tax abatements or other deals, and the city still needs money to build infrastructure. One cannot sell bonds forever. It is a balance, but somewhat more realistic.


Quote:
Oh yes, did I mention, with a global airport where will AT&T eventually be?
Dallas

Quote:
This should have been anticipated. Global status requires global actions you can not fall asleep at the wheel. As one prominent general once said "The best defense is an offense"
I thought boxer Jack Dempsey said that or was it Stanley Baldwin, oh well matters not.


Refocus your energy and money and making the quality of life in a town better and then the smart growth will come. Being proactive and going after jobs and business is great, but having at least one foot grounded in the realism of the business world is a good idea.

Business (and even government) just doesn't work like you seem to think in a capitalist market. But good luck with all that...

Ciao,
AWACS
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  #4  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2008, 6:58 PM
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Austin isn't really a fortune 500 town, or even a big business town. That's just not our thing. We're more like the central CA coast of Texas. A place where everyone (at least in the state) would like to live if money were no object, but not exactly a big industry town where there are jobs everywhere and you can develop a career. It's more a "bring your own money" city. In that sense, it will continue to grow as the overall state population grows, and some business will come here chasing lifestyle and educated employees. But I wouldn't expect a really big company like AT&T or Walmart to EVER choose Austin, they rely too heavily on lower paid blue-collar employees who just can't afford to live here.

BTW, San Antonio will continue to benefit from their position as the tourist destination for Texas. With fuel prices rising, airport security hassles, and all the new junk fees they charge you, SA will see tourism from within the state rise. Heck, I'd imagine they already have seen a big increase. That, plus the large ex-military population, will be SA's identity more than a big business town IMO.

So, central Texas = Texas' fav Tourist Destination + Texas' fav town to live in. That's what the area is about, might as well embrace it. There are much worse things to be, believe me!
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  #5  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2008, 7:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hookem View Post
Austin isn't really a fortune 500 town, or even a big business town. That's just not our thing. We're more like the central CA coast of Texas. A place where everyone (at least in the state) would like to live if money were no object, but not exactly a big industry town where there are jobs everywhere and you can develop a career. It's more a "bring your own money" city. In that sense, it will continue to grow as the overall state population grows, and some business will come here chasing lifestyle and educated employees. But I wouldn't expect a really big company like AT&T or Walmart to EVER choose Austin, they rely too heavily on lower paid blue-collar employees who just can't afford to live here.

BTW, San Antonio will continue to benefit from their position as the tourist destination for Texas. With fuel prices rising, airport security hassles, and all the new junk fees they charge you, SA will see tourism from within the state rise. Heck, I'd imagine they already have seen a big increase. That, plus the large ex-military population, will be SA's identity more than a big business town IMO.

So, central Texas = Texas' fav Tourist Destination + Texas' fav town to live in. That's what the area is about, might as well embrace it. There are much worse things to be, believe me!
Very well put. San Antonio has a lot going for it. IMHO, SA is a great city in its own unique way and shouldn't even try to emulate Dallas, Houston, Austin, or anyplace else. It's a fast growing city for many different reasons, not just because of corporate jobs.
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  #6  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2008, 7:33 PM
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Capt AWACS

I know it is a little hard to think abstractly beyond the normal everyday response but you see that is the response that is needed here. When central park was proposed in New York City people like you came out of the woodwork everywhere to say it was unrealistic. Imagine Manhattan without central park now. Quite foolish!

It is a bruise to both Austin and San Antonio. Think a little more, corporate board rooms think a bit more beyond what they read in a local paper. I know for a fact that research is being done constantly on market areas to gain an economic edge.

Austin and San Antonio together represent at least the same level of significance as Dallas. Apart they do not. If the mayor of San Antonio wants San Antonio to be a global player then those things that make a global city need to be done.

Both airports are not global airports. Improvements are good but in the end they are only improvements.

Ciities do tremble. Yes they do! You are very wrong. There have been many improvements made, many incentives made, and many deals struck to keep employers within cities and states. To think otherwise is foolish. Metroplex, whatever, I am sure you know what I mean.

The new always beats the old in the end because the old dies. The time lines may be short or long. Dallas and Houston are booming so was LA. It's called critical mass. What happens after you reach that is the item to focus on.

Gas prices will not go down in the long run. I think Portland Oregon has 65 gates. Eighty gates is a good number to look at. You may not build them to their full extent right away but you will have the capability in place. There is a lot of space in Texas last time I was there. Yes, central Texas is not Dubai, (the US should be ashamed of itself to loose the tall building lead to Dubai) but what makes you think Texas can not become a Dubai in the future as far as wealth is concerned. Don't place limitations on your self before you start. Actually the light rail serving PDX proved to be one of the better lines but I rather see heavy rail here to the airport. Oh and yes the corporate individuals we are talking about will find a way to get there in comfort. Yes they can even start using a heliports like in some other urban areas.

NASA is still now in a exploratory mode. This will change. Landings are going to become more common and private companies will start a new industry. I think you summarized it well when you stated that it is very expensive to move the shuttle. All your regions stated are more remote than central Texas.

Try $200 a barrel and going up. Plan now be ready later. It sure makes it easier to talk to NASA when it is already there.

Of course Dallas will not let American Airlines just move (city will tremble). Yes its hard. Who said life was easy. That is the competition you are up against. If you can not take the heat then you need to be in the back rows of the movie theater. HA HA

You are creating demand by combining the demand from two airports too close to each other into one. From there you are building up the economic structure of the area to further add demand. You do not have to offer everything Dallas's airport does now but you want to make sure you can provide the direct service. When the direct service is available that service will be cut back in the other airports. From there you are creating new services not available at the other airports to attract further demand. Ultimately you will rival and then surpass the other airports but you must have the space now to do it later. Dollars spent now are cheaper than dollars spent later so you develop a lead in the money race by acting sooner rather than responding later.

The globe is not there yet at Texas' doorstep. Perhaps to some extent in Dallas. You are fooling yourself.

Oil companies if they do not diversify will go away in a century type changing event just as other companies have done in the past.

We are talking about solar companies, research, production, corporate headquarters not residences with photocells on their roofs. El Paso does not have the necessary prerequisites to keep this kind of a industry going. San Antonio does. There is however competition out there for this industry so sleeping is not a good trait.

You are correct it takes a lot more but if you think about it you will realize that the East coast has Disney in Florida, the West Coast has Disney in Anaheim, and were does the Midwest have Disney? Negotiations are a rough business and don't get me wrong but you do have to start somewhere. When you have a head start in that industry it only makes common sense to continue the lead.

I think it was actually some one from a country neighboring yours that said it, but of course he lost in the end.

If we all grounded our selves in reality we would not get much accomplished in the end, would we. You would be surprised how some decisions are made in the board rooms of corporations and on what petty items.
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  #7  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2008, 7:33 PM
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Paul in S.A TX Paul in S.A TX is offline
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You guys are so entertaining, I love it. I will say dreams can become reality. What invention or project hasn't started as a dream? I wouldn't vote for you Capt A, if you ran for San Antonio city government. PTSA has vision, even if some goals he mentioned may seem more of a pipe deam. Never say never.

Inland Port San Antonio is agressively courting Latin American countries/companies and others abroad, as a designated foreign trade zone. This could open the door to domestic air traffic to that part of the globe and elsewhere.

http://www.portsanantonio.us/Webpages.asp?wpid=172

http://www.nascocorridor.com/naipn/pages/san_initiative.html

http://www.nascocorridor.com/naipn/pages/san_infra.html


Disney has already looked at San Antonio and has something planned. I think San Antonio is postioned geographically in the central states, that would also draw from Mexico as well. Disney would tap into a $11 billion dollar tourism industry, which would only grow to the scope of Orlando's or larger. San Antonio with all it's history and charm, without a plastic image such as Orlando, Would move it ahead of Orlando imo. Disney put Orlando on the world map.

http://jimhillmedia.com/blogs/todd_james...y-mgm-studio-backlot-project-part-3.aspx


Once San Antonio-Austin grow into more of a partnership as we are already seeing, with the Austin-SA Corridor council and ASA rail. This will only strengthen the South-Central Texas region and elevate it as a global competitor. Dallas didn't get where it's at on it's lonesome. Ft Worth and all of North Texas have contributed to the status Dallas enjoys today. San Antonio and Austin seem to be taking baby steps in that direction.
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  #8  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2008, 7:45 PM
KeepSanAntonioLame KeepSanAntonioLame is offline
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I thought that disney thing was a rumor. There was a big thing in the paper a while ago dispelling it.
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  #9  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2008, 7:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul in S.A TX View Post
You guys are so entertaining, I love it. I will say dreams can become reality. What invention or project hasn't started as a dream? I wouldn't vote for you Capt A, if you ran for San Antonio city government. PTSA has vision, even if some goals he mentioned may seem more of a pipe deam. Never say never.

Inland Port San Antonio is agressively courting Latin American countries/companies and others abroad, as a designated foreign trade zone. This could open the door to domestic air traffic to that part of the globe and elsewhere.

http://www.portsanantonio.us/Webpages.asp?wpid=172

http://www.nascocorridor.com/naipn/pages/san_initiative.html

http://www.nascocorridor.com/naipn/pages/san_infra.html


Disney has already looked at San Antonio and has something planned. I think San Antonio is postioned geographically in the central states, that would also draw from Mexico as well. Disney would tap into a $11 billion dollar tourism industry, which would only grow to the scope of Orlando's or larger. San Antonio with all it's history and charm, without a plastic image such as Orlando, Would move it ahead of Orlando imo. Disney put Orlando on the world map.

http://jimhillmedia.com/blogs/todd_james...y-mgm-studio-backlot-project-part-3.aspx


Once San Antonio-Austin grow into more of a partnership as we are already seeing, with the Austin-SA Corridor council and ASA rail. This will only strengthen the South-Central Texas region and elevate it as a global competitor. Dallas didn't get where it's at on it's lonesome. Ft Worth and all of North Texas have contributed to the status Dallas enjoys today. San Antonio and Austin seem to be taking baby steps in that direction.
I'll tell you a city that did get where it is on its lonesome...HOUSTON!

But honestly, Disney is not building a theme park anywhere, anytime soon, a new airport between the two cities was knocked down in the 80s, and a lot of PTSA's second post in this thread make zero sense.
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  #10  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2008, 8:00 PM
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I thought that disney thing was a rumor. There was a big thing in the paper a while ago dispelling it.
I guess someone didn't to their homework.
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Old Posted Jun 30, 2008, 8:01 PM
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I'll tell you a city that did get where it is on its lonesome...HOUSTON!

But honestly, Disney is not building a theme park anywhere, anytime soon, a new airport between the two cities was knocked down in the 80s, and a lot of PTSA's second post in this thread make zero sense.
Houston woudn't have gotten to where it's out without Humble. Sorry Trae!
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  #12  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2008, 8:06 PM
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I think Disney in San Antonio now is a rumor but with some legs to stand on. The airport is a problem. They need one desperately to make it work. Thirty Five gates is a problem. Am I correct that it will have 35 gates when complete?
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  #13  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2008, 8:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trae View Post
I'll tell you a city that did get where it is on its lonesome...HOUSTON!

But honestly, Disney is not building a theme park anywhere, anytime soon, a new airport between the two cities was knocked down in the 80s, and a lot of PTSA's second post in this thread make zero sense.
I like the Vision in PTSA's post. May not be all that feasible, but one could say it may not be all that far fetched either. I found the post interesting nonetheless, I enjoyed it.
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  #14  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2008, 8:16 PM
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You start with a high vision. You never get everything you want but you get more than you think.

You start with a low vision and you are liable to become completely disappointed with what you got.

You start with no vision then you have others give you what they think you deserve. Which is usually what they don't want.
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Old Posted Jun 30, 2008, 8:20 PM
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Texas doesn't need more global cities, we have two. They may not be Alpha cities, but they certainly are powerful economies.
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Old Posted Jun 30, 2008, 8:30 PM
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Originally Posted by PTSA View Post
I think Disney in San Antonio now is a rumor but with some legs to stand on. The airport is a problem. They need one desperately to make it work. Thirty Five gates is a problem. Am I correct that it will have 35 gates when complete?
There are no legs to this Disney thing. A Disney in Texas rumor has been going on for over 25 years. Disney isn't coming to Texas. Went from Disney in Sealy, to Disney in San Antonio, to Disney in Katy, to Disney in Orange, and back again. It's not happening.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul in S.A TX View Post
Houston woudn't have gotten to where it's out without Humble. Sorry Trae!
Oh yeah, thanks Humble, Texas!

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Originally Posted by alexjon View Post
Texas doesn't need more global cities, we have two. They may not be Alpha cities, but they certainly are powerful economies.
Yep, Houston and Dallas are Texas' economic powerhouses. San Antonio and Austin, even when combined, don't (and won't) compete. Combined, neither are growing as fast as Houston or Dallas. I don't see that changing in the near future.

I do see Austin pulling ahead of SA, as it attracts more college graduates than San Antonio, and has been growing faster than the Alamo City. San Antonio is still doing just fine.
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  #17  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2008, 8:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Trae View Post
I'll tell you a city that did get where it is on its lonesome...HOUSTON!

But honestly, Disney is not building a theme park anywhere, anytime soon, a new airport between the two cities was knocked down in the 80s, and a lot of PTSA's second post in this thread make zero sense.
Kinda.... a little ole hurricane in 1900 helped...

This thread has gotten very heated. I for one would HATE to see Austin or San Antonio become "more like Dallas or Houston".

They are great for so many reasons as they are. And it's not like they are experiencing negative growth, job loss, or any other problem plaguing some areas of the country. So AT&T left. Big fuggin' deal. That just leaves more room for SA to do something else with.


BTW has anyone noticed the similarities here...

PTSA... Paul in S.A TX

not meaning to start something... I'm just sayin'
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  #18  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2008, 8:36 PM
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Trae Trae is offline
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Originally Posted by urbanactivistTX View Post
PTSA... Paul in S.A TX

not meaning to start something... I'm just sayin'
Oh wow. It is all coming together. Like the pieces on a puzzle.
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  #19  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2008, 8:38 PM
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oldmanshirt oldmanshirt is offline
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Wow, I thought the dreaded Disney rumor only popped up on city-data forums

Oh wait, I'm not allowed to mention competing forums on here, am I??
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  #20  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2008, 8:41 PM
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Trae Trae is offline
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You won't get banned here for mentioning another forum like you would at CityData.
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