Bombardier makes a pitch for piece of $14b Metro rapid-transit work

[SpongeG]

Bombardier makes a pitch for piece of $14b Metro rapid-transit work

Derrick Penner, Vancouver Sun
Published: Wednesday, April 30, 2008
British Columbia is proposing to build $14 billion worth of new rapid transit in the Lower Mainland by 2020. And Montreal-based conglomerate Bombardier builds just such systems.

So it was no coincidence that the head of the transit-systems division with Bombardier's train-making subsidiary was in Vancouver Tuesday to talk up the merits of rapid transit to a business audience.

"Certainly, the announcement of [B.C.'s transit] master plan is one of the major areas of interest for me," Ray Betler, president of Total Transit Systems at Bombardier, told reporters following a speech to the Vancouver Board of Trade.

Some 80 per cent of Bombardier's transit business is outside North America, but Betler added that his company "would like to have operations here in Vancouver now and in the future."

Bombardier helped pioneer Metro Vancouver's SkyTrain system, but lost out in its bid to build the Canada Line addition to the system by what Betler characterized a "single-digit percentage-point" amount to competitor SNC Lavalin.

He added that the "primary priority" of his trip this week was to reinforce that Bombardier is still the world's "No. 1 transit company, and a mainstay in Vancouver."

Betler said he met with provincial Transportation Minister Kevin Falcon in Victoria before making Tuesday's speech. The two did have existing business -- the delivery of new SkyTrain cars -- to discuss. However, he added that his company is "always trying to develop relationships."

Other meetings on Betler's list included TransLink and Partnerships BC, the government-owned company that vets public-sector, private-sector partnership projects for the province.

Bombardier maintains operations in Vancouver to support some of its other rapid transit projects, such as a system it is developing in Kuala Lumpur, Betler said, and the company is busy putting together a project team to work on proposals for Metro Vancouver, such as the $1.4-billion, 11-kilometre Evergreen Line from Burnaby's Lougheed Town Centre to Coquitlam Centre.

Betler said he did not specifically discuss the Evergreen project with Falcon. Those plans aren't far enough along to get into details. And he added that winning any work on the new lines or extensions proposed for B.C. will be very competitive.

However, with systems under development on four continents, Betler had some insight for his Vancouver audience to consider.

"Mobility is a critical issue for any region striving to be a true player on the global stage," Betler said. However, when it comes to moving people, transportation systems in regions such as Metro Vancouver are out of whack and weighted too heavily toward roads. Traffic congestion is one of the results, the cost of which has been calculated at $700 million to $1.2 billion per year in the Metro Vancouver region.

"We simply can't build enough roads to accommodate the volume of people that need to have access to our urban centres," Betler said. "Not today and certainly not when you consider what's coming in the future."

Transit trains, he added, can help balance out the transportation formula. A modern transit system, he said, can carry 40,000 people per hour heading in either direction, versus 6,000 people driving on a two-lane highway during the same time frame.

Betler did not disparage the province's other transportation plan, the Asia Pacific Gateway Strategy, which calls for new perimetre roads, twinning of the Port Mann Bridge and expansion of the freeway. "[Transportation is] personal preference," he added. "But at some point in time, economics and environmental conditions are going to force a solution."

[email protected]

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/business/story.html?id=ed1f0c0d-569a-4c52-b447-948eec056c2e

[deasine]

I was a little disappointed when Bombardier lost to SNC Lavin. I wouldn't be surprised if they are a main player for the Evergreen Line.

[mr.x]

If the Evergreen is SkyTrain, and it is, Bombardier will no doubt be the main player.

Yea, i remember being dissappointed as well.



I'm all for more Bombardier involvement in our rapid transit system....as long as they don't tell us that they're stopping their Mark II/ART train production.

[bugsy]

Am I the only one who holds a particular disdain for Bombardier?

I for one can't stand the thieving bastards stealing our tax dollars while robbing cities blind with their overpriced and poorly designed trains.

I can't wait until the subsidies stop and the bastards go out of business. Nothing of value would be lost.

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by bugsy

Am I the only one who holds a particular disdain for Bombardier?

I for one can't stand the thieving bastards stealing our tax dollars while robbing cities blind with their overpriced and poorly designed trains.

I can't wait until the subsidies stop and the bastards go out of business. Nothing of value would be lost.

I'm personally a lot more worried about the buses we purchase from New Flyer. Not even a year in service, and those new diesel/natural gas/energy saving buses are already losing screws and rattling inside....it's ridiculous. And on the 99 today, on one of those new articulated buses, the interior was already creaking when the buses turn.

The Bombardier trains aren't all that bad, considering how many clients Bombardier has worldwide....though I have to agree that the ART Mark II's are a bit overpriced.

[quobobo]

Originally Posted by mr.x2

I'm personally a lot more worried about the buses we purchase from New Flyer. Not even a year in service, and those new diesel/natural gas/energy saving buses are already losing screws and rattling inside....it's ridiculous. And on the 99 today, on one of those new articulated buses, the interior was already creaking when the buses turn.

YES. The new articulated buses are not looking good - I'd say about 1/4 of them already make terrible, terrible noises for one reason or another.

Is Translink "encouraged" to buy domestic buses by some policy I'm not aware of, or do they actually choose New Flyer buses?

[djh]

Originally Posted by mr.x2

The Bombardier trains aren't all that bad, considering how many clients Bombardier has worldwide....though I have to agree that the ART Mark II's are a bit overpriced.

I thought a big part of why Bombardier lost out on the Canada Line was because they were allegedly a lot more expensive than the other bids (at least according to the media). But in the article above, the CEO states that there was less than 10% difference between their bid and the winning bid.

So is it just a misconception we all have that Bombardier is more expensive, or is there some other hidden cost?

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by djh

I thought a big part of why Bombardier lost out on the Canada Line was because they were allegedly a lot more expensive than the other bids (at least according to the media). But in the article above, the CEO states that there was less than 10% difference between their bid and the winning bid.

So is it just a misconception we all have that Bombardier is more expensive, or is there some other hidden cost?

The Bombardier bid cost for the Canada Line was never unveiled to the public, but it was rumoured that the cost they had was $2.5-billion (compared to SNC Lavalin's $1.7-billion). Though the Bombardier bid probably proposed SkyTrain, which helped drive costs up, you need to note that they also had less innovative and more expensive ideas for how to build the line (station designs, tunnel configurations, etc.). SNC-Lavalin's bid proposed cut and cover on the road, which cut down costs considerably....I doubt Bombardier thought of that.

[officedweller]

Bombardier's president also seems to have forgotten that Bombardier's Canada Line bid involved a permanent open trench south of 49th Ave.

Here's the summary report comparing the InTransitBC (SNCLavalin) and RAVExpress (Bombardier) bids for the Canada Line - go to page 10 for the RAVExpress proposal and alternate and page 11 for the SNCLavalin proposal and alternate.

http://www.canadaline.ca/files/uploads/docs/doc177.pdf


Anyways check out the mention of the Evergreen Line....

Strange though that the private partner would supply cars for the Evergreen Line - suggests that it will include an "operate" component (unlike the Docklands Light Railway model which is just supplying guideway availability) - but the private partner could just make cars available to Translink. But it does raise questions about interlining - hopefully interlining won't be dependent on whether Bombardier wins the bid.

Bombardier would have used a tunnel: Prez

Frank Luba, The Province
Published: Wednesday, April 30, 2008

Bombardier would have built the Canada Line rapid-transit project in a tunnel instead of the cut-and-cover trench that has opened Cambie Street up like a nasty gash.

While the $2-billion Canada Line is due to open on time and on budget late in 2009, the disruption to commerce, traffic and life has resulted in business failures and an ongoing lawsuit.

Raymond Betler, president of Bombardier Transportation's Total Transit Systems Division, revealed how his company would have done the project after a speech yesterday to the Vancouver Board of Trade.

Considering Bombardier's SkyTrain is already being used in the Lower Mainland, many observers were surprised the company was not chosen to build the Canada Line.

"Me, for instance," said Betler of his company's disappointment at not winning the lucrative job.

"Our approach was to tunnel, as opposed to cut-and-cover . . . because we thought that would be more community-friendly, less disruptive than cut-and-cover.

"In the end, our price was higher. I think fundamentally, because of that, we lost the job.

"It was not significantly higher," said Betler of his company's price to build the 19-kilometre line between Vancouver and Richmond.

"We were within single-digit percentages of the other competitor."

He would not give the actual difference.

Betler spoke to provincial Transportation Minister Kevin Falcon and TransLink yesterday and his company is assembling a team to bid on the Evergreen Line to Coquitlam when a request for proposals is issued.

Evergreen is supposed to use SkyTrain-like technology. Several companies that make linear-induction motors will also bid for the line.

Canada Line trains are being manufactured by Hyundai of Korea.

Betler said the new line would likely be a public-private partnership.

"Bombardier is involved in more [public-private] projects than any other transportation supplier in the world," he said.

He also expects to have to bid for the proposed extensions to the Expo Line SkyTrain that is part of the province's ambitious $14-billion transit plan.

[email protected]

© The Vancouver Province 2008

[Dave2]

>Bombardier helped pioneer Metro Vancouver's SkyTrain system, but lost out in its bid to build the Canada Line addition to the system by what Betler characterized a "single-digit percentage-point" amount to competitor SNC Lavalin.

Damn, we were that close to Skytrain.... with 80m patforms.... even if it was elveated south of 49th, i'd take that tradeofff

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by Dave2

>Bombardier helped pioneer Metro Vancouver's SkyTrain system, but lost out in its bid to build the Canada Line addition to the system by what Betler characterized a "single-digit percentage-point" amount to competitor SNC Lavalin.

Damn, we were that close to Skytrain.... with 80m patforms.... even if it was elveated south of 49th, i'd take that tradeofff

SkyTrain yes, 80-metre platforms not so sure about that.


It's possible that Bombardier decided to go with 3-metre wide trains, just like SNC-Lavalin, meaning shorter trains and thus platforms required to meet the 15,000 pphpd capacity requirement set in the contract.

If Bombardier decided to go with 2.4-metre width cars, just like our SkyTrain Mark II's, 80-metres would probably be too much for a 15,000 pphpd capacity....you might be looking at 60-metres for narrower trains?