Morphosis in France

Why the is deleted when none is replaced?
See
http://skyscraperpage.com/diagrams/?deleted.noX
http://skyscraperpage.com/cities/?buildingID=57211

[Metropolitan]

Originally Posted by Mkmillenium

Why the is deleted when none is replaced?
See
http://skyscraperpage.com/diagrams/?deleted.noX

I've asked this on PM and apparently the problem was that it was inspired by a rendering. Now, don't ask me how a diagram representing a proposal could be based on something else than a rendering on first hand. Anyway, I know that this diagram is fully drawn and that nothing in it is pasted from any copyrighted image. I've discussed about this with the drawer of the diagram and he has shown me the evolution of his drawing, so that's why I'm 100% sure of this.

I've tried to figure out what could be changed in order to make it acceptable and I realized that it wouldn't be easy. Indeed, I've thought about slightly rotating the drawing, but that's not so easy because of the very particular bending shape of the structure.

I agree with you a lot Metropolitan. Even it is based in rendering in 2D or 3D it is still a drawing as result and the method used to do it should not beeing in discussion. I disagree with the removal of that just because of that. It looks perfect to me and I am very unhappy if the reason is just that a nap in an egg, understand me?!. It has some other poorer drawings even posted here. these Structure is very difficult to make a rotation, only if made with some 3D renderings softwares as 3dStudiomax or alias to do that. By hand is impossible. I would consider the moderators here putting the drawing back. Very upset and unfortunatly this nap on egg here.

[John Hinds]

The drawing still contains elements of this rendering.


Drawing over a rendering trying to make it look like an original drawing is not allowed. The drawing needs to be 100% original.

http://skyscraperpage.com/diagrams/sspia/code/

a.) No illustrator will submit as his/her own, any drawing or portion of a drawing that he himself (or she herself) has not created.
This includes not only drawings, but:

1. Architectural Renderings
2. Photos
3. Portions of other illustrator’s work(s) integrated into an otherwise original drawing, and submitted as purely original.

Anything that is submitted to the SkyscraperPage.com diagrams must be 100% original. There are no exceptions to this rule, and there will be no tolerance for those who break it.

I compared both with precise identification and see differences like the angle of structure is different in top oppening not equally. so it's was not based in that rendering in my opinion. Also the mix end on top is quite other. The base is too diverse of the rendering shows. Even the colours are different scheme. It is similar but not based on that. In my oppinion did not brake the rules. But the senior commitee knows better than me. I think better having that one than nothing, even it is a very beautiful structure proposal.

[Metropolitan]

@Johnny 5:

The drawing contains absolutely no element of the mentionned rendering and I can prove this.

Here is the diagram of JBCousin with no illumination as drawn at large scale:



As you can see, nothing in that image comes from an official rendering. We can see well how every specific elements have been drawn "by hand". The horizontal limits between floors, the diagonal lines of the cladding, the colours, the thin spires at the top, the way the "skirt" is lifted up to make appear the structure. Absolutely everything.


Finally, here's the exact same drawing, after illuminations have been added in order to add more a sense of perspective to the drawing:



You can see well that it's the exact same drawing on which the only thing which have been changed are lights.


Now, if you're still not convinced, I will make a direct comparison between both. On the left, you can see the first drawing from JBCousin which was indeed a copy/paste of the official rendering at the notable exception of the basis. On the right, you can see the second drawing from JBCousin, which is 100% drawn.



You see well that there is absolutely no element which are in common between both. I know all this for the simple reason that JBCousin asked me some tips for his drawing. As such, he has shown me various versions of the drawing on which I've given my personal advice.

I fully admit that his drawing is inspired by the rendering, but I fail to see how it couldn't be the case knowing the building doesn't exist yet. If his diagram can't be accepted, than I guess many of the diagrams I've personally made about Paris proposals should be rejected either. Actually, I even guess that this would be true for nearly all diagrams of proposals which are available on SSP.

Metropolitan, I sign under your comments.

So, many illustrators proposals here are based in rendering if that it is not accepted. This tolerance here is in question and put most of illustrations posted in SSP in question... IN THAT CASE AFTER THOSE EXPLANATIONS, IF I WOULD BE YOURS I WILL CONSIDER A LOT PUTTING BACK ONLY THAT STRUCTURE DRAWING AVOIDING DELETION OF HUNDRED ONES MORE.

[Metropolitan]

I don't believe this necessarily deserved to be written in capital letters, but still thanks for the support Mkmillenium.

[LMich]

I don't know why he decided to put it in caps. His English is horrible.

Thanks, Metropolitan, for the explanation. Hopefully, Jonny sees this.

[SomeFormOFhuman]

I knew it from the very beginning that it was referenced from a rendering since the day he uploaded the drawing It's pretty obvious. Anyway, but it's not good to do a exact crop from a rendering. It shows that he or she has no skill in illustrating curvatured complex structures at all.

[LMich]

Hasn't it been changed enough around the edges that this wouldn't be called a trace-over? Or, is it still too close to a full trace to count as original?

[SomeFormOFhuman]

Hmm.. Unless if he is willing to show his way of drawing this, then I'd like to see.

[Metropolitan]

The rule is rather clear : "No illustrator will submit as his/her own, any drawing or portion of a drawing that he himself (or she herself) has not created."

Frankly, SomeFormOFhuman, show me which part of the drawing you suspect to not be created by the drawer himself. If you're not able to do so, then it proves there's a problem in your rejection of the drawing.

This building is extremely difficult to draw. If we can't be inspired by a unique rendering in order to draw it, then the task becomes nearly impossible, and this for the simple reason there's not a single profile of that building that looks like another.

Please compare the diagram without illumination with the rendering and find me any single element which is a copy/paste. As for the overall crop of the main body, I would be very curious to know how exactly it would be possible not to respect it if we want to make a proportionated drawing. If you have any trick please give it to me.

Finally, if you consider the drawer is bad and believe you could do a better drawing by yourself, then do it and everybody will be happy.

Originally Posted by LMich

I don't know why he decided to put it in caps. His English is horrible.

Thanks, Metropolitan, for the explanation. Hopefully, Jonny sees this.

You are a typical american, just see America. My English is not the best I addmit, but it is also not so bad. In addition are your 4 languages spoken perfect? or do you speak only English? I think you took personally this time. I think you are not in Position to judge people and qualifying them. I don't need to justify me for you, but I was not born in a English spoken Country and do not have too much contact with the language, so as everybody I make mistakes. Even in my mother language I make several mistakes, because people are not like you, perfect. If you want to make this site interesting be polite and respect the others with not personal thema.

[SomeFormOFhuman]

Originally Posted by Metropolitan

The rule is rather clear : "No illustrator will submit as his/her own, any drawing or portion of a drawing that he himself (or she herself) has not created."

Frankly, SomeFormOFhuman, show me which part of the drawing you suspect to not be created by the drawer himself. If you're not able to do so, then it proves there's a problem in your rejection of the drawing.

This building is extremely difficult to draw. If we can't be inspired by a unique rendering in order to draw it, then the task becomes nearly impossible, and this for the simple reason there's not a single profile of that building that looks like another.

Please compare the diagram without illumination with the rendering and find me any single element which is a copy/paste. As for the overall crop of the main body, I would be very curious to know how exactly it would be possible not to respect it if we want to make a proportionated drawing. If you have any trick please give it to me.

Finally, if you consider the drawer is bad and believe you could do a better drawing by yourself, then do it and everybody will be happy.

Wrong. Take off that image of your thread and replace it with this :

You're just intending to attack me with reasoning that just disclaims you. If that's the case, then I want you to quote which part of my sentence (in my earlier posts) that I said that you copied or cropped any part of the rendering into your drawing:

I knew it from the very beginning that it was referenced from a rendering since the day he uploaded the drawing It's pretty obvious. Anyway, but it's not good to do a exact crop from a rendering. It shows that he or she has no skill in illustrating curvatured complex structures at all.

I said you have either referenced it from the rendering, I did not say that you cropped and pasted any part of the rendering into your drawing. I said it was obvious that you have a reference from the rendering to help you draw - What kind of illustrator would not use a rendering as a reference if for unbuilt structures? And as for the last post, And I said I really want to know what detailed steps you took to illustrate this building, and I don't like carrying fancy half done tales; because I thought you did a really good job executing the form of the structure accurately.

And I said sternly that it wasn't good for any illsutrator to copy and paste any part of the rendering into the drawing as what J5 or the law here says. You better put on your reading glasses and read it with your eyes wide open.

You are like telling someone who is drawing illustrations for the past 11 years up till now, telling him what to do. You have not seen the rest of mine. I do not have to prove it to you and I have no time for all this stupid dueling or comparison around here.

P.S. I don't mind debates, but you keep in cool here. I don't have time for all this arguing between you and me. So take it outside.
To the MODs, this thread better be watched or be locked since all of it is going no where.

Mkmillenium: It's alright! Take it cool, at least you're trying your best to help and that's good It doesn't matter about the English language, we all understand after a while.

[Metropolitan]

@SomeFormOFhuman:

This isn't my drawing. It's JBCousin's drawing.
If you want him to answer you, please send him a PM.

By the way, I honnestly didn't want to be offensive. The thing is simply that I sincerly don't understand what's the problem with his drawing. I thought it was a problem of copy/paste, and I've simply said that there were nothing such in his drawing. Granted this shouldn't be my business, but when I know an information which I believe is valuable, I consider it's fair for everyone to share it.

Anyway, you've clarified that you don't consider there are any copy/paste but you consider he may have referenced his drawing from the rendering. Sorry, I'm not a native English speaker and I don't understand what does it mean. Anyway, I'll send him a PM on the French forum where we've both met so that he could explain himself directly, but for this I would need to understand what means "to reference from". If what you mean is that he's been directly inspired by the rendering, then even I could probably answer yes. However, I've done so with my own drawings too and I didn't know it was forbidden. Anyway, I'll ask him to come over here.

[SomeFormOFhuman]

Doh.. Nevermind, I also thought twice... I'm sorry if I wailed at you at my post, (I think I also jumped the gun) Also, I think I should re-consider my own English too, I thought I didn't wrote that properly about the copy/paste part... Well my friend, all is forgiven! You see, I am a non American too, I am from Singapore. So my English may not be as "American" like, if you know what I mean. (Mainly using the simple "straight forward" type of English)

Please also forgive and pardon me too! Let's not speak about this again!

Here, have some beer...

Originally Posted by SomeFormOFhuman

Wrong. Take off that image of your thread and replace it with this :

Mkmillenium: It's alright! Take it cool, at least you're trying your best to help and that's good It doesn't matter about the English language, we all understand after a while.

@SomeFormOFhuman: Thanks for supporting making understand me in the discussions here. I like architecture and try to make this site the most precise we could offer to society showing very interesting diagrams and cities structures. I do my part of this job and direct my comments not fighting someone, just commenting about bldgs. So I like respect also and will be also not passive for aggressive guys looking for a nap on egg here. Unfortunatly also I could not correct many information because, even asked hundred times, right to be an editor is not given to me. So, I have, people like or dislike, to go straight in my points that for me is in question about a structure or bldg. I know too much structures from cities in fault here and try to do my best to help in person or with much research to make this site the best one about scrapers.

[Tony]

Mkmillenium: I'd just like to remind you that forum rules apply to this subforum as well. Perhaps it's because you're not very strong with your english but you really need to tone down what you say to your fellow forumers. Criticism is certainly acceptable but should always be delivered in a courteous and polite manner. Be nice and we'll always be nice back. Simple!

Originally Posted by Tony

Mkmillenium: I'd just like to remind you that forum rules apply to this subforum as well. Perhaps it's because you're not very strong with your english but you really need to tone down what you say to your fellow forumers. Criticism is certainly acceptable but should always be delivered in a courteous and polite manner. Be nice and we'll always be nice back. Simple!

Ok, I agree with you, I just answer in some defensive way the LMich direct agression, but anyway let's forget and talk not about English, because here it is not an English course for foreigners, but about buildings, what the propose of this site.

->>> After too many discussions, should be this Structure drawing be back as diagram? I would like to see it there in building page.