Confederation Line West LRT Extension (Stage 2) [Tunney's to Baseline/Moodie] | U/C

[Gat-Train]

Originally Posted by PHrenetic

Good Day.

Yep. I've been downloading for years, ever since half way through the Chiarrelli plan. Although it sometimes gets difficult to find what i've called it !

As noted previous, the old Stage 2 website, with ALL it's materials, has vanished.

NoJoy!

Have you checked archive.org?

[RationalPhi]

Originally Posted by kevinbottawa

Isn't the new alignment temporary until the tunnel is done.

The image RichardEagle posted is the current plan for the final alignment. It's changed from the previous negotiated plan of having eastbound lane directly over the straight LRT. The westbound lanes have been moved to their final alignment other than one or two spots and they'll move the eastbound lanes next beside in the spring, then only one or two sections will need final alignment after the cut and cover is done.

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by RationalPhi

The image RichardEagle posted is the current plan for the final alignment. It's changed from the previous negotiated plan of having eastbound lane directly over the straight LRT. The westbound lanes have been moved to their final alignment other than one or two spots and they'll move the eastbound lanes next beside in the spring, then only one or two sections will need final alignment after the cut and cover is done.

Hmm. I understand adding a couple curves to reduce speed. But as others have noted, it really seems like they went overboard... a little too curvy.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

If they were worried about the speed along the straighter road, they could have reduced the lane width. There are no commercial vehicles and will be no buses along there, so very narrow lanes are appropriate. Also, there is Photo-Radar available now. Set the speed limit for 40 kph and ticket those doing more than 60 kph.

Don't forget that the the parkway is also used by cyclists, thus there should be either a wide curb lane or a bike lane. Some might say that they should use the "bike path," but the recreational pathway is heavily used by pedestrians and while it is fine for recreational cyclists, it isn't good for those using a bike as a form of transportation. For the safety of everyone, they should be on the parkway. The parkway would actually be a great place for bike lanes, as there are so few intersections (which make bike lanes dangerous). The problem is the NCC doesn't really want it used by commuters of any type.

As for the speed limit. I think 40 km/h seems a bit slow for what amounts to a limited access divided highway with no sidewalks or pedestrians crossing. The current speed limit of 60 seems appropriate, though I could see reducing it to 50 to allow them to use photo radar set to 60 km/h (a 10 km/h buffer seems adequate to me). Don't forget the SJAM Parkway is more of a scenic approach to Ottawa than an destination drive.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Don't forget that the the parkway is also used by cyclists, thus there should be either a wide curb lane or a bike lane. Some might say that they should use the "bike path," but the recreational pathway is heavily used by pedestrians and while it is fine for recreational cyclists, it isn't good for those using a bike as a form of transportation. For the safety of everyone, they should be on the parkway. The parkway would actually be a great place for bike lanes, as there are so few intersections (which make bike lanes dangerous). The problem is the NCC doesn't really want it used by commuters of any type.

As for the speed limit. I think 40 km/h seems a bit slow for what amounts to a limited access divided highway with no sidewalks or pedestrians crossing. The current speed limit of 60 seems appropriate, though I could see reducing it to 50 to allow them to use photo radar set to 60 km/h (a 10 km/h buffer seems adequate to me). Don't forget the SJAM Parkway is more of a scenic approach to Ottawa than an destination drive.

We should do like Vancouver and have bike paths, pedestrian walkways and car lanes separate. Here's an example. They have it like this all over the city, especially in parks and along waterways.


https://cyclevancouver.com/guide-to-...-in-vancouver/

Vancouver does a lot of things right and we really should start following their example. I was amazed when we visited in September.

[PHrenetic]

Originally Posted by Gat-Train

Have you checked archive.org?

Good Day.

Reasonable suggestion, and I am aware of Archive. But, offhand, no. That is not to say that it is, or is not, there, but.....

My point is, and remains, that the info has disappeared from where any reasonable person should be able to expect to find it.
It was and is already bad enough trying to search for it in myriad locations and pages.
We, the public, have paid for it, have received it, and it should remain available for all to access and compare all aspects of the project,
from initiation, through study, analysis, planning, EA-TPAP, contracting, construction, to final delivery.

The City website is, at least for me, incessantly frustrating trying to find anything.
The search box almost invariably gives me anything and everything NOT related to what I am searching, no matter what keywords I give.
So if it IS out there somewhere, I cannot find it. (And yes, I am familiar with search keywording.... I have been in IT since 1972.)

NoJoy!

[J.OT13]

Maybe we did get a fantastic deal on Stage 2, Confederation at least.

Running the numbers, the $3.3B capital estimate makes no sense for Hamilton. 246 million/km?

Calgary's Green Line is 150 million/km for the surface section and 550 million/km for the downtown subway section.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...postcount=3541

Ottawa's Stage 2 Confederation, capital cost only (vehicles and maintenance contract was awarded to Stage 1 partners), is $2.57B for 27 kilometers, 16 stations. Stations are not enclosed and the architectural grandness not quite as nice as Stage 1, but still fairly elaborate. Of those 16 station, 5 will have washrooms.

That's only $95.2 million per kilometer, fully grade separated and includes extensive tunneling (about 3 kilometers of new cut-and-cover tunnels).

The contract for the 38 Alstom Citadis (48 meters) is worth $300 million.

If we add the rolling stock, it comes down to $106.3 million per kilometer capital. Maintenance numbers are available somewhere, but hard to find.

https://www.alstom.com/press-release...ederation-line

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Running the numbers, the $3.3B capital estimate makes no sense for Hamilton. 246 million/km?

I think that "estimate" is BS.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

I think that "estimate" is BS.

I agree. There's a reason why Ford didn't want to wait until the bids came in and the true cost was on display. I hope the groups bidding on the project expose the Ford Government's lies.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I agree. There's a reason why Ford didn't want to wait until the bids came in and the true cost was on display. I hope the groups bidding on the project expose the Ford Government's lies.

Here's hoping, but I also want to see Hamilton join the LRT club. It's a respectably decent-sized city by Canadian standards.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

We should do like Vancouver and have bike paths, pedestrian walkways and car lanes separate. Here's an example. They have it like this all over the city, especially in parks and along waterways.

-snip-

Vancouver does a lot of things right and we really should start following their example. I was amazed when we visited in September.

Part of why Vancouver has that is because they have a far milder climate than we do. I don't disagree on the notion that we should improve our pedestrian adn cycling infrastructure, but it is important to remember that flowers aren't blooming by March here the way they are out west.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Jamaican-Phoenix

Part of why Vancouver has that is because they have a far milder climate than we do. I don't disagree on the notion that we should improve our pedestrian adn cycling infrastructure, but it is important to remember that flowers aren't blooming by March here the way they are out west.

We still get a solid 6 to 8 months of good biking weather. The volume during those times alone should be enough to justify this sort of investment whenever we do build or re-build MUP infrastructure, especially along the rivers and canal. Why have Sunday bike days when you could have that all the time with segregated bike paths?

[yvesdarly]

Originally Posted by Jamaican-Phoenix

Part of why Vancouver has that is because they have a far milder climate than we do. I don't disagree on the notion that we should improve our pedestrian adn cycling infrastructure, but it is important to remember that flowers aren't blooming by March here the way they are out west.

Well in Montreal, we are planning the REV (Reseau Express Vélo) which is a segregated bike path network. There might be a latent demand in Ottawa even in winter.

It depends on travel behaviors , and also on the people's engagement to accept drastic measures in order to reduce the automobile modal share and to reduce household gas. If we deem it acceptable to reduce auto lanes for bike lanes then it might be implemented at a citywide scale.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

We still get a solid 6 to 8 months of good biking weather. The volume during those times alone should be enough to justify this sort of investment whenever we do build or re-build MUP infrastructure, especially along the rivers and canal. Why have Sunday bike days when you could have that all the time with segregated bike paths?

Sounds like another good alternative option for Queen Elizabeth...

[FFX-ME]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Maybe we did get a fantastic deal on Stage 2, Confederation at least.

Running the numbers, the $3.3B capital estimate makes no sense for Hamilton. 246 million/km?

Calgary's Green Line is 150 million/km for the surface section and 550 million/km for the downtown subway section.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...postcount=3541

Ottawa's Stage 2 Confederation, capital cost only (vehicles and maintenance contract was awarded to Stage 1 partners), is $2.57B for 27 kilometers, 16 stations. Stations are not enclosed and the architectural grandness not quite as nice as Stage 1, but still fairly elaborate. Of those 16 station, 5 will have washrooms.

That's only $95.2 million per kilometer, fully grade separated and includes extensive tunneling (about 3 kilometers of new cut-and-cover tunnels).

The contract for the 38 Alstom Citadis (48 meters) is worth $300 million.

If we add the rolling stock, it comes down to $106.3 million per kilometer capital. Maintenance numbers are available somewhere, but hard to find.

https://www.alstom.com/press-release...ederation-line

Not necessarily an apples to apples comparison. 16 km of those are from the trillium line which is single-track diesel. So really it is 151.1 million per kilometer, using your numbers and counting the trillium like as 8 km instead of 16. Which is similar to Calagary but may end up biting us in the wallet in the long run since it will likely be more expensive to double-track and electrify the trillium line once it is already running.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by FFX-ME

Not necessarily an apples to apples comparison. 16 km of those are from the trillium line which is single-track diesel. So really it is 151.1 million per kilometer, using your numbers and counting the trillium like as 8 km instead of 16. Which is similar to Calagary but may end up biting us in the wallet in the long run since it will likely be more expensive to double-track and electrify the trillium line once it is already running.

Actually, I didn't include Trillium in my calculations for that very reason.

[zzptichka]

Our Hazeldean above ground Phase 3 extension is something like $300M/km. And that's first estimate without rolling stock I think.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by zzptichka

Our Hazeldean above ground Phase 3 extension is something like $300M/km. And that's first estimate without rolling stock I think.

It's elevated rail past Terry Fox I guess, so the price goes WAY up. Though I'm still puzzled at how cheap Stage 2 Confederation is compared to most other rail projects in the country. Yes, we have existing rights of way along a good portion, but still have major works like fly-overs (Jasmin, Connaught Park), overpasses/underpasses (Montréal, Iris, Holly Acres), tunneling (Richmond, Connaught Park, partial past Algonquin), highway shifting (174 between Jasmin and just past Montréal). Our stations are all relatively elaborate. Hamilton, Calgary (outside downtown), Finch, they're all mostly street-running tramways with glorified bus-stop stations.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by zzptichka

Our Hazeldean above ground Phase 3 extension is something like $300M/km. And that's first estimate without rolling stock I think.

No. As I calculated in post #1224, the costs break out as follows:

Originally Posted by roger1818

1. Moodie station to Terry Fox station: $110.94 million / km
2. Terry Fox station to Palladium station: $213.33 million / km
3. Palladium station to Hazeldean station: $263.16 million / km

So even the most expensive leg is less than that. For the entire 11.3km, the 1.85 billion works out to $164M/km. Not sure if that includes rolling stock or not though.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by roger1818

No. As I calculated in post #1224, the costs break out as follows:
So even the most expensive leg is less than that. For the entire 11.3km, the 1.85 billion works out to $164M/km. Not sure if that includes rolling stock or not though.

Then we have to consider the City's estimates were off by 50% in 2006, 16.6% in 2012 and 27.7% in 2019, so expect those numbers to shift significantly, after we receive the upper-level funding commitments based on flawed numbers of course.