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  #1221  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2018, 5:33 AM
PHrenetic PHrenetic is offline
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Good Day.

Keith Egli has put up the FEDCO LRT updates (NB: Thank You, Sir.) :

Index page : http://keithegli.ca/ottawas-light-rail-transit-updates/

a Stage 2 procurement update (cross-posted) (2 pg.):
http://keithegli.ca/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Memo-to-Council-Stage-2-Procurement-Update.pdf

EnJoy!
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  #1222  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2018, 3:06 AM
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Kanata LRT extension would cost $1.85B to build ... someday

Jon Willing, Ottawa Citizen
Published on: April 25, 2018 | Last Updated: April 25, 2018 4:48 PM EDT


An 11-kilometre light-rail extension through Kanata, from Moodie Drive to Hazeldean Road, would cost $1.85 billion, a new report says.

The report published Wednesday reveals the results of the Kanata LRT environmental assessment. It confirms that the preferred route would see westbound trains leaving Moodie station travelling on tracks on the north side of Highway 417, crossing the highway to the Canadian Tire Centre and continuing south to a terminus at Hazeldean Road. It means LRT could serve the growing Stittsville area.

There are eight stations and four park and rides in the Kanata LRT three-phase blueprint. According to the city, the rail extension would bring 90 per cent of Kanata residents within five kilometres of rail, and 80 per cent of all Ottawa residents would be within five kilometres of rail. A pedestrian bridge over the highway would connect the park-and-ride at Eagleson Road to an LRT station on the north side of the highway.

But here’s the kicker: the city can’t afford it.

Not right now, anyway.

Kanata LRT isn’t in the city’s “affordable” transportation plans, which are mapped out to 2031. There’s no indication when council will update the transportation master plan.

So, for now, the city has a plan it can put on a shelf until there’s more money available from each level of government.

The ultimate transportation network currently calls for LRT to stop at the Canadian Tire Centre. The addition of the stretch between the Canadian Tire Centre and Hazeldean Road adds $500 million to the high-level cost estimate, which is in 2017 dollars.

The city shortlisted three possible routes through Kanata from 13 options. The other two routes would have dipped either north or south into Kanata before ending at the Canadian Tire Centre. The city determined that a straight shot through Kanata was most efficient.

City staff will ask the transportation committee to approve the functional design of Kanata LRT during a meeting next Wednesday.


Kanata LRT priority phasing and cost estimates

1. Moodie station to Terry Fox station, $710 million
2. Terry Fox station to Palladium station, $640 million
3. Palladium station to Hazeldean station, $500 million
Total Project Cost: $1.85 billion


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http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/kanata-lrt-extension-would-cost-1-85b-to-build-someday
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  #1223  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2018, 3:29 AM
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Wow. Just going from Terry Fox to Palladium costs almost as much as going from Moodie to Terry Fox..

With those numbers, it makes sense to move forward with Moodie->Terry Fox only. The cost goes up like crazy past Terry Fox and that section has questionable value.
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  #1224  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2018, 3:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketphish View Post
Kanata LRT priority phasing and cost estimates

1. Moodie station to Terry Fox station, $710 million
2. Terry Fox station to Palladium station, $640 million
3. Palladium station to Hazeldean station, $500 million
If you consider it is about 6.4 km from Moodie to Terry Fox and about 3 km from Terry Fox station to Palladium and 1.9 km from Palladium to Hazeldean, we end up with the cost per km as follows:
  1. Moodie station to Terry Fox station: $110.94 million / km
  2. Terry Fox station to Palladium station: $213.33 million / km
  3. Palladium station to Hazeldean station: $263.16 million / km

From that, we should only do Moodie station to Terry Fox station.
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  #1225  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2018, 3:42 AM
zzptichka zzptichka is online now
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That's crazy. $250M/km is what LRT in a tunnel would cost. Wish they used that money on cheaper and more important urban streetcar/LRT projects instead.
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  #1226  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2018, 3:48 AM
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It's all elevated which is almost as expensive as tunnelling.

Terry Fox-Hazeldean is a massive waste of money with that budget. Like, massive. By contrast, Moodie-Terry Fox is actually surprisingly affordable.
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  #1227  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2018, 4:35 AM
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As we move further into the suburbs, we go from a Cadillac plan to a Tesla plan. It should get cheaper to build LRT in a greenfield environment. Are we overbuilding?
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  #1228  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2018, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
If you consider it is about 6.4 km from Moodie to Terry Fox and about 3 km from Terry Fox station to Palladium and 1.9 km from Palladium to Hazeldean, we end up with the cost per km as follows:
  1. Moodie station to Terry Fox station: $110.94 million / km
  2. Terry Fox station to Palladium station: $213.33 million / km
  3. Palladium station to Hazeldean station: $263.16 million / km

From that, we should only do Moodie station to Terry Fox station.
Isn't that what you called for from the start?
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  #1229  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2018, 1:12 PM
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Originally Posted by OtrainUser View Post
Isn't that what you called for from the start?
It has always been my opinion for other reasons, but these numbers reinforce it.

Edit: Further discussion should probably be done in the Kanata LRT EA - Bayshore to Palladium thread

Last edited by roger1818; Apr 26, 2018 at 1:32 PM.
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  #1230  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2018, 2:25 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Originally Posted by zzptichka View Post
That's crazy. $250M/km is what LRT in a tunnel would cost. Wish they used that money on cheaper and more important urban streetcar/LRT projects instead.
But that wouldn't please the suburban swing voter.
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  #1231  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2018, 3:53 PM
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Jesus, if that's the case then the city should purchase the rail that runs from the western areas into the city and build a new "commuter line" that would interline with the O-Train.
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  #1232  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2018, 4:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Jamaican-Phoenix View Post
Jesus, if that's the case then the city should purchase the rail that runs from the western areas into the city and build a new "commuter line" that would interline with the O-Train.
Actually they aleady own both tracks.
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  #1233  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2018, 5:34 PM
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Quote:
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Actually they aleady own both tracks.
The city owns the Renfrew Subdivision and the former Carleton Place Subdivision (west of the Beachburg Subdivision, the NCC owns the eastern part). I think CN still owns the Beachburg Subdivision (even the part that was recently torn up west of the junction with the Renfrew Subdivision) and VIA Rail owns the Smiths Falls Subdivision.
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  #1234  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2018, 5:53 PM
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The city only owns the parts in green.

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  #1235  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2018, 6:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamaican-Phoenix View Post
The city only owns the parts in green.
What isn't shown on that map is the eastern portions of the Carleton Place and Renfrew Subdivisions. They were torn up in the late 60's. I have drawn them below in purple and orange respectively. You can see evidence of them in Google Maps and you can see them on the 1965 (and earlier) aerial photographs on geoOttawa.



Here is a picture of a train travelling under the Beachburg Subdivision on the Carleton Place Subdivision in Bells Corners (just east of Moodie Dr).


Photo from the Canada Science and Technology Museum online archives.

Last edited by roger1818; Apr 26, 2018 at 7:16 PM.
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  #1236  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2018, 8:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
The city owns the Renfrew Subdivision and the former Carleton Place Subdivision (west of the Beachburg Subdivision, the NCC owns the eastern part). I think CN still owns the Beachburg Subdivision (even the part that was recently torn up west of the junction with the Renfrew Subdivision) and VIA Rail owns the Smiths Falls Subdivision.
Yes that's what I meant
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  #1237  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2018, 9:08 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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The Carleton Place subdivision was not lifted until the late 80s or early 90s. I remember Lowell Green railing away against lifting those tracks, just a short time before we started thinking about rail transit. For once, I agreed with Lowell.
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  #1238  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2018, 9:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
The Carleton Place subdivision was not lifted until the late 80s or early 90s. I remember Lowell Green railing away against lifting those tracks, just a short time before we started thinking about rail transit. For once, I agreed with Lowell.
West of the junction with the Beachburg Subdivision, yes they weren’t lifted until the early 90s (I remember them being there in the summer of 93). East of the junction, they were lifted in the late 60s, along with all the other tracks to downtown thanks to the NCC.
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  #1239  
Old Posted May 2, 2018, 4:59 PM
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Ottawa's LRT plan survives a trip through Ontario leaders' BS machine

David Reevely, Ottawa Citizen
Published on: May 1, 2018 | Last Updated: May 1, 2018 5:24 PM EDT


The Progressive Conservatives will contribute the $1 billion in provincial money Ottawa needs for the next phase of its light-rail plans, leader Doug Ford promised publicly on Tuesday.

He was answering a warning from Liberal leader Kathleen Wynne that money her government has promised for years isn’t locked in, a mundane statement of fact that blew up into an election issue thanks to political spin, a quick headline and the fact we have about half a dozen elections in the time it takes to build one consequential transit project.

First, the promise: “The people of Ottawa can count on me to build transit,” Ford said in a written statement. “The Ontario PCs are fully committed to moving forward with Phase 2 of the Ottawa LRT.”

This is the extension of the soon-to-open first rail line between Tunney’s Pasture and Blair Road. The larger second phase is to connect to Moodie Drive and Baseline station in the west and Trim Road in the east, and extend the existing O-Train south to the airport and Riverside South. Construction starts in 2019, pretty much as soon as the first phase is done, but it can’t go without provincial (and federal) money.

Back in 2014, Tim Hudak, then the Progressive Conservative leader, said flatly — but mistakenly — that if he were elected premier a Tory government wouldn’t pay its share, effectively killing the project. He reversed himself hastily, making a special trip back to Ottawa a couple of days later to undo the damage. Four years later, we’re talking about the exact same billion-dollar commitment.

The money’s been promised a lot. Politicians have had so many gaudy announcements I’ve lost count. The federal government promised its billion in a letter in 2015 and again in a public event a week later in case we missed it. Then, because those commitments came from Conservatives, Justin Trudeau promised the same billion last year.

Any normal person would think that the money is sitting in a city account by now.

In reality, that’s not how any of this works. Funding a big transit project is a long, delicate process. Politicians circle each other like teenagers at a dance, making eyes, looking away, getting a little closer, drifting apart. Until they fall into each other’s arms while the DJ plays his last song, nothing is definite. For the LRT, nobody has signed a binding “contribution agreement,” as it’s called, because that just doesn’t happen until Stairway to Heaven is on.

Which is more or less what Wynne said in Ottawa on Monday, answering a question at a public event.

“You have promised $1 billion for LRT Phase 2. Could, theoretically, could it be cancelled by Mr. Ford? Or is it firm?” Radio-Canada’s Gilles Taillon asked.

“In a run-up to an election — and I’ve experienced this a few times now — people always want to come and say, ‘Can you make sure that this doesn’t change? Just in case you don’t get elected, can we make sure this doesn’t change?’ And my answer always has to be no. We cannot guarantee what another government would do,” Wynne said.

Ford really could walk away. Any provincial government could. If a governing party could commit irrevocably to future spending they’d make binding 50-year plans and then it wouldn’t matter who got in. The point of elections is that we can vote in parties that aren’t bound by previous governments’ promises.

On Monday, Wynne went on to allege that Ford’s pledged not to send provincial money to cities unless they make cuts to their budgets, which was not correct. He has said he wants to make sure cities aren’t wasting money before he gives them any more. That suggests intrusive supervision of elected city councils, but it’s not the same as demanding cuts.

Ford did promise Mayor Jim Watson his support for the rail project in a closed-door meeting two weeks ago, a chat the two men didn’t publicize. He said it to my colleague Jonathan Willing afterward, too. Possibly Wynne missed the one tweet about it that constitutes the public record of the commitment.

Wynne’s answer became a CBC story headlined “Liberal loss could leave LRT money in limbo, Wynne warns.” True enough. Torqued up into a much bigger deal than it really is, but factually accurate.

Which in turn became an element in Ford’s statement: “Grasping at straws, Kathleen Wynne fabricated a story that a new government would cancel the Ottawa LRT,” the Tories said, falsely.

The LRT costs billions of dollars and will define where Ottawans live and work and how we get around for generations. But the fact that we go through multiple elections in three levels of government in the time it takes to plan things on this scale makes them exceptionally vulnerable. Politicians who care about the people and places they govern shouldn’t jam things that big and important through their BS machines.

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http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news...-trip-through-ontario-leaders-bs-machine
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  #1240  
Old Posted May 19, 2018, 8:15 PM
zzptichka zzptichka is online now
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Some renderings of Moodie LRT station from community association meeting:







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