Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[cabotp]

I sometimes wonder if people should be banned from talking. And only if they have something smart to say should they be allowed to talk.

If only I could live in a dream world.

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

Until there are rebuttals to Zweisystem printed in the same papers & websites that he is using, the readers of those media sites & papers will only hear Zweisystem's distorted views. It's one thing for us to argue (for and against) Zweisystem in these SSP forums, but if the general public don't hear our arguments they will only have Zweisystem's views to make up their minds on these issues.

Perhaps Zweisystem needs his own "Truthers" following him around.

I've noticed that Drew Snider from Translink often responds quickly to Malcolm Johnston/Zweisystem's letters in the papers.

I have a life and would not be paid to do that.

[kylemacmac]

Originally Posted by The_Henry_Man

If the author doesn't approve my post. Here its is:

Dumb article.

Unfortunately, I honestly think the author just hasn't done much research and threw in facts and ideas without taking much into consideration. The problem though is that now his ideas are out there and people accept it was gospel and use it as a starting point. "Yeah, why isn't the line just going down 16th?" and so forth. Hopefully some people read the comments and maybe the author will make another blog post. You never know. The problem with urban planning is, that while many of us have thought about it for hundreds of hours, and our ideas have evolved over time, while other people are just starting to think about it, and may have never considered things like ridership issues, frequency, etc. Ultimately, everyone's going to have to deal with whatever gets built, so the more people that can be educated about what's going on, the better the consultation process will proceed and we'll be left with the best chance for the best choice to be made.

[CLC]

The same author wrote a comparsion between Toronto and Vancouver public transportation, notice the praise on TTC subway:
http://www.beyondrobson.com/city/2009/09/vancouverite_in_toronto_getting_from_a_to_b/

[WaxItYourself]

Originally Posted by CLC

The same author wrote a comparsion between Toronto and Vancouver public transportation, notice the praise on TTC subway:
http://www.beyondrobson.com/city/2009/09/vancouverite_in_toronto_getting_from_a_to_b/

it seems like the main problem he has with Vancouver transit as opposed to Toronto transit is that it is more vast. I would hope he realizes that the Toronto subway system is more than 30 years older than the Expo line which is the reason why it is so vast. All his other points basically come down to it begin much older and much more widespread.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Of interest TTC Eglinton LRT report
- large file: download as target

http://www3.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Commiss...17_2009/Reports/Eglinton_Crosstown_L.pdf

Has anyone else noticed that they are going to use TBMs to dig under most of Eglinton?

This kinda defeats the 'build LRT on Broadway to UBC' arguments, and reinforces the need to TBM under Broadway or 10th. Then run M-Line trains instead of LRT in the tunnel.

[racc]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

Has anyone else noticed that they are going to use TBMs to dig under most of Eglinton?

This kinda defeats the 'build LRT on Broadway to UBC' arguments, and reinforces the need to TBM under Broadway or 10th. Then run M-Line trains instead of LRT in the tunnel.

A TBM under Broadway would be as disruptive as cut and cover or LRT due to station construction. As bored tunnels are often much deeper than cut and cover, the stations are deeper and construction takes longer and is more disruptive. The obvious solution is a bored tunnel along 10th.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by racc

A TBM under Broadway would be as disruptive as cut and cover or LRT due to station construction. As bored tunnels are often much deeper than cut and cover, the stations are deeper and construction takes longer and is more disruptive. The obvious solution is a bored tunnel along 10th.

Couldn't agree more. With that vertiginous hill/escarpment to UBC. Whew!

.... OR did you mean the length of 10th Avenue from Midtown ??

[deasine]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Couldn't agree more. With that vertiginous hill/escarpment to UBC. Whew!

.... OR did you mean the length of 10th Avenue from Midtown ??

I think it would be best if you go look back a few pages before or you go to the group website for the plans.

[lightrail]

Originally Posted by racc

A TBM under Broadway would be as disruptive as cut and cover or LRT due to station construction. As bored tunnels are often much deeper than cut and cover, the stations are deeper and construction takes longer and is more disruptive. The obvious solution is a bored tunnel along 10th.

Stations can be bored as well. In Santiago several stations are built this way. In London, all the Crossrail stations will be bored as there's no room on the surface to dig a hole big enough.

[MalcolmTucker]

Mined out, yes, it is just incredibly expensive.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by racc

A TBM under Broadway would be as disruptive as cut and cover or LRT due to station construction. As bored tunnels are often much deeper than cut and cover, the stations are deeper and construction takes longer and is more disruptive. The obvious solution is a bored tunnel along 10th.

The advantage of using a TBM instead of Cut and Cover is that with the TBM method the only surface disruption is at the launch box & the stations, instead of over the entire length of the subway when using the Cut and Cover method. It's inevitable that construction of a station will cause disruption on the street above, but there are ways to maintain some traffic during construction. I've discovered how New York is handling it for their new subway construction.

I've found a blog about the construction of the new Second Avenue Subway (The Launch Box: http://thelaunchbox.blogspot.com/) that shows some of the construction in progress.

There are four phases planned for this new subway construction, with Phase One currently underway and expected to be finished by 2018. Phases Two through Four are in the initial planning stages, but have no money for construction.

Phase One will create new tunnels from 2nd Ave @ 95th to 2nd Ave @ 72nd, then curve west and connect to the existing existing Lexington Ave @ 63rd Station. There will be new stations along Second Avenue at 96th, 86th and 72nd Streets.

The first construction contract involves the construction of new tunnels between 92nd and 63rd Streets, and the excavation of the launch box for the tunnel boring (TBM) machine between 92nd and 95th Streets.

2nd Ave from 92nd to 95th has been partially dug out and decked over so that 4 lanes of traffic can still run on half the street while the other half of the street surface is used as a construction zone. Under the decking, construction continues to dig down to create the TBM launch Box, and next year the TBM itself will be assembled (under the decking) so it can start boring the tunnels. As with any construction site, traffic needs to be routed around the construction zone, but the street is still usable by vehicles -- unlike the C-Line Yaletown, VCC and Waterfront construction which blocked the entire street & forced traffic onto other nearby streets during construction.

When the TBM finishes the tunnels, the TBM launch Box will become the 92nd Street station -- just like Olympic on the C-Line.

Photos from The Launch Box showing a 'roof-level view' of the street. (These photos show few construction workers, since they were taken on the weekend)

2nd Ave @ 92nd, SE corner - looking N (approx. 60' above the street level)


2nd Ave @ 92nd, SE corner - looking S


Another view of the same construction access hole.


And here is a close up view of the surface at the bottom of the hole, again from the roof.
The left wall in this image is solid bedrock.



The construction company makes periodic presentations to the local community board to keep the community informed of the construction progress. Here are some views of the work that is on-going underneath the road decking that covers the TBM Launch Box.










Here is the full PDF of the presentation:
http://www.mta.info/capconstr/sas/documents/090924_C1C2AC5ACombined_CB8_final.pdf

This presentation shows the construction stages in more detail for those who want to know, but it shows there is no need to block the entire road surface during construction of the TBM Launch Box or a Station.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Couldn't agree more. With that vertiginous hill/escarpment to UBC. Whew!

.... OR did you mean the length of 10th Avenue from Midtown ??

Using a TBM, you can adjust the boring of the tunnel allowing it to rise & fall with the terrain along 10th Avenue so the stations can be built 60-70 feet below the road surface.

Before anyone objects to having such deep stations & tunnels, please note that the tracks at VCC are 65 feet below Granville.

[officedweller]

That street looks like its 6-8 lanes wide - so the closed part of the street is probably about the same width as Granville or Davie.

[Zassk]

It appears to be a 6-lane street, so equivalent to Georgia or (more relevant to this thread) Broadway.

It's a very impressive plan. Quite shocking how big the footprint of each station is - more than two long city blocks. And we thought 80 meters was a long platform! It also looks like part of the tunnel is being constructed for 3 tracks instead of two.

I"m surprised the excavation of the TBM portal alone will take several years, given that they are working 24 hrs/day, 6 days/week underground. But then, it's also going to be a station, and as I mentioned, the station is huge.

The contract values as massive. I doubt we in Vancouver will ever spend over $300m on just a couple city blocks' worth of subway line, as seen in those contracts. The NY metro is just on a totally different scale than our dinky UBC line.

[racc]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

The advantage of using a TBM instead of Cut and Cover is that with the TBM method the only surface disruption is at the launch box & the stations, instead of over the entire length of the subway when using the Cut and Cover method. It's inevitable that construction of a station will cause disruption on the street above, but there are ways to maintain some traffic during construction. I've discovered how New York is handling it for their new subway construction.

All fine and good except it is costing around $2 billion a mile and has taken NYC 75 years to find the funding for it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Avenue_Subway

Anything is possible if there is enough money. It is just so much easier and less expensive to bore along 10th. There is little point in suggesting a tunnel under Broadway.

[lightrail]

Even excavation can be done with less disruption. On Canada Line, Cambie Street was closed for far longer than necessary simply to allow Canada Line workers to park their cars there.

In Edmonton when the LRT was bult under Jasper Avenue, the tunnels were bored but the stations were cut-and-cover. The City drilled holes and poured supports along each side of the street at the station site, built a concrete road deck and then reopened the roadway. After, the City excavated under the road deck, they dug out the station and removed the soil by ramp on a side street, or for later stations, by train spaced between regular LRT passenger trains. The point is that the road was only closed for thwe time it took to build the deck, and then open for the two years it took to build the station below.

Canada Line was a mess and shouldn't have been.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by racc

Anything is possible if there is enough money. It is just so much easier and less expensive to bore along 10th. There is little point in suggesting a tunnel under Broadway.

Then.. why even bore it? Why not cut & cover all the way along 10th Ave, except for the curvy part over by Main St?

Edit - according to the wikipedia page, the average length of each station is 275 meters!

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by Zassk

It appears to be a 6-lane street, so equivalent to Georgia or (more relevant to this thread) Broadway.

It's a very impressive plan. Quite shocking how big the footprint of each station is - more than two long city blocks. And we thought 80 meters was a long platform! It also looks like part of the tunnel is being constructed for 3 tracks instead of two.

I"m surprised the excavation of the TBM portal alone will take several years, given that they are working 24 hrs/day, 6 days/week underground. But then, it's also going to be a station, and as I mentioned, the station is huge.

The contract values as massive. I doubt we in Vancouver will ever spend over $300m on just a couple city blocks' worth of subway line, as seen in those contracts. The NY metro is just on a totally different scale than our dinky UBC line.

The train platforms there are at least 600 feet long to accommodate 10-car trains - think of a station under Granville stretching from The Bay to The Orpheum.

And while we're bickering over LRT vs. Skytrain and Broadway vs. 10th, and wondering how to pay for the UBC line and the Coquitlam line, they are building a 2nd Ave subway on the east side AND an extension from Times Square west to 10th Ave, and then south past Javits Centre to Chelsea on the west side.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by Zassk

Then.. why even bore it? Why not cut & cover all the way along 10th Ave, except for the curvy part over by Main St?

Edit - according to the wikipedia page, the average length of each station is 275 meters! :O

Did you experience the Hell that was Cambie Street during that cut & cover construction?

Imagine using cut & cover on 10th at VGH ... cutting off ambulance access to the ER for months while the tunnels & station are being built.