Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[AlexYVR]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

flexible + cost efficient does not always equal higher ridership

Lack of flexibility increases predictability.

I would love to see human studies... like faced with two choices of equal "value" how many opt one over the other and what kind of person chooses one over the other.

Say, for example... we had electric trolley buses, diesel buses and trams on the same corridor, taking approximately the same time, serving the same destinations ( I know... it's silly )

Do people actually show a preference?

How important is the actual vehicle, if all other factors are more or less the same?

What is this perception worth?

Is there a perceived value validating the increased cost of steel rails?

I've never seen a study like that, but it would be fascinating... instead of relying on anecdotal evidence.

People do show a preference - at least in some areas. For example, a study out of Sweden (I can google to find if you'd like) show that people will walk 900 m to get to a rapid transit station but only 400 m to board a bus. Perceived vs. real difference? Perhaps, but it's the truth.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

flexible + cost efficient does not always equal higher ridership

Lack of flexibility increases predictability.


How important is the actual vehicle, if all other factors are more or less the same?

Oh, I agree to a certain extent. Not sure I understand your statement in bold though.

I'll walk further to a rapid transit station myself, but that's usually because I'm looking at a 4 min wait between trains vs 15-20-30 mins between buses, that's all. If I'm on Broadway waiting for a 9 or 99 during the day, then I have no problem getting on a bus instead of the train.

I think the perception is out there that buses are infrequent and unpredictable. However I think that problem can be overcome with marketing, like the B line idea, etc.

[deasine]

In terms of "lack of flexibility increases predictability", I believe twoNeurons is referring to the fact that streetcars can only run on two rails and that the streetcars cannot maneuver around events such as accidents, road construction etc. Predictability refers to reliability of service, I'm pressuming. Usually, streetcars, albeit slow, generally follows its schedule better than buses. Of course, this all dpenends on how the streetcar is implemented. Correct me if I'm wrong twoNeurons.

[BCPhil]

I think it depends on the amount of separation. 100% mixed with traffic tram/lrt/streetcar where the trains share the road with cars and cross every single intersection, wouldn't be a time saver for a rider.

But it might get a few more riders out than just a bus would. Trains typically have fewer stops, and those stops are well marked and usually convenient. It's easier to know which stop is yours and you don't have to worry about it.

As well, a tram line is visible, you know where it goes. When you see a sign that says "bus stop" and that's it, who knows what bus, or where that bus goes, where it came from, and how long until the next. If you got on a train that said to UBC, you would know it was going down Broadway as that is where the tracks are. If you got on a bus that says to UBC, who knows if it goes down Broadway, 4th, 12th, 16th, or any combination. That's the "reliability" that trams bring over buses.

When you start to give it some dedicated ROW, the "reliability" increases as it can avoid many traffic disruptions. But if it's still on a surface street, it will meet many still. As well, a tram down Broadway will still have to follow traffic speed limits. There is a reason there are speed limits around pedestrians, and LRT would be no exception. The actual reliability will improve marginally, and I think it wouldn't, and historically hasn't, attract more riders than just a street car, which isn't that much more than just a bus.

When you add grade separation, the reliability is completely external to road influence, thus much higher, both real and perceived. You can have city wide gridlock and the trains can run unimpeded. That brings people out en mass, 100% reliability. You also have the benefits of the other rail modes like marked stations and clearly defined routes. You also have no speed limit (except engineering wise) so trains are much faster in getting you where you are going, which brings out the "my car is faster" crowd. There are two groups of car users, the my car is more convienient crowd, and the my car is faster crowd, high speed metro brings out both. LRT only brings out the convenient.

Tram is better than bus because it can bring out a few extra riders a bus never would. As well, you can transport more people per driver on a tram (lower employee costs). LRT is better than tram because you have a bit of segregation from traffic and more efficiency than tram. But Metro is better than LRT in urban areas because they are completely external to any interference, thus are faster and more reliable.

[BCPhil]

WRT Earthquakes:

I think some of the other posters have hit the nail on the head. Underground tunnels, especially those with reinforced concrete liners, escape tremors with little damage. There is no need to spend twice as much. The Canada Line tunnels are inherently safe by their method of construction and from being underground.

I think the underground portions of the Canada Line would be the safest place to be in the even of an earthquake in CoV outside of a house. I will take my chances being hit with a broken piece of concrete underground as opposed to having a window or broken tile fall on me above ground.

As well, most of the Skytrain above ground seems pretty safe. They really built solid foundations for the pillars, they aren't just sitting on the surface. As well, I think the construction method of the new pieces, of having them supported internally by steel cables (instead of one giant cast piece) will help with their flexibility compared to even simple overpasses.

And compared to the freeway examples provided, most of the Skytrain system has a much lower center of gravity. The freeway that fell over was tall, and very wide, making it's center of mass even higher than the hight of skytrain. Because skytrain guideway is so narrow, the center of gravity is so much lower, thus less prone to sway.

As well, the way the different sections are connected means that if one pillar fails it would probably bring down just the joining 2 guideway chunks. Unlike oldstyle freeway construction (like in the pics) where one segment topples and they are all connected by pavement that it brings them all down.

I think in an earthquake the segment of skytrain in Richmond would be one of the least damaged structures in that city (and I don't think the whole place would be demolished).

The only real portion that might be in trouble is that on the false creek flats, but I would be that Translink wouldn't care. It's the oldest segment (predating actual skytrain) and I'm sure Translink wouldn't mind replacing it if they had to.

And if an earthquake was big enough to put Skytrain out of action, I think it would be the least of our troubles. If it was that strong, it would put a lot of older buildings downtown out of action, the majority of which are offices. So it would probably mean that 33% of office space would be damaged, meaning that many fewer commuters, meaning we could survive for a period of time without skytrain as we rebuild downtown and the tracks. Skytrain would probably be ready before many buildings were repaired.

[nname]

I don't know if anyone posted this yet. Edmonton is consider an extension for its South LRT to Ellerslie Road.

So the design is:
- 4.5km of tracks
- ONE station
- One underpass and overpass each
- 3 at-grade crossing (or 4.. they didn't mention the last one)
- Most of the route already have reserved ROW (the grass median of the road is probably wider than Broadway -_-)
- Almost half of the line travel through FARMLAND
- Estimated cost: 425 millions, which works out to be close to 100 millions/km

Now I'm thinking.. if we built Canada Line as LRT similar to Edmonton and Calgary's, it would probably end up pretty close to 2 billions, eh? Except, well, it would have longer platform...

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by deasine

In terms of "lack of flexibility increases predictability", I believe twoNeurons is referring to the fact that streetcars can only run on two rails and that the streetcars cannot maneuver around events such as accidents, road construction etc. Predictability refers to reliability of service, I'm pressuming. Usually, streetcars, albeit slow, generally follows its schedule better than buses. Of course, this all dpenends on how the streetcar is implemented. Correct me if I'm wrong twoNeurons.

Pretty much the right idea... but with predictability, I'm talking more about the routing. It's easier to predict where it's going to go if it's only able to take a certain route.

Perhaps I should've used more clear wording.

[jsbertram]

I noticed in the last few weeks some pink spray paint dots at crosswalks during my errands. Curious, I looked closer & the pink spray paint was highlighting a survey nail that appeared to be centered on the street at the crosswalk. I've also found the same pink spray paint dots and survey nails on the north and south sidewalks within 30 feet of the crosswalk, giving me the impression they make up a triangle.

So far, I've found these at 10th/Granville, 10th/Oak and 10th/Main. At each of them the crosswalk survey nail appears to be indicating the center line of 10th Ave.

I can't say this means 10th Ave is the route for the new Skytrain to Arbutus and UBC, but it appears to me that 10th Ave is being surveyed for something. The paint is fading already, so this has been done recently.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

But Metro is better than LRT in urban areas because they are completely external to any interference, thus are faster and more reliable.

EXACTLY.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

I noticed in the last few weeks some pink spray paint dots at crosswalks during my errands. Curious, I looked closer & the pink spray paint was highlighting a survey nail that appeared to be centered on the street at the crosswalk. I've also found the same pink spray paint dots and survey nails on the north and south sidewalks within 30 feet of the crosswalk, giving me the impression they make up a triangle.

So far, I've found these at 10th/Granville, 10th/Oak and 10th/Main. At each of them the crosswalk survey nail appears to be indicating the center line of 10th Ave.

I can't say this means 10th Ave is the route for the new Skytrain to Arbutus and UBC, but it appears to me that 10th Ave is being surveyed for something. The paint is fading already, so this has been done recently.

They have to spend that $5 million doing something I guess. I hope that the study is more than just feasibility and this surveying is part of it and indicates the study might be more of a concrete plan than a "it's possible".

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

I think it depends on the amount of separation. 100% mixed with traffic tram/lrt/streetcar where the trains share the road with cars and cross every single intersection, wouldn't be a time saver for a rider.

But it might get a few more riders out than just a bus would. Trains typically have fewer stops, and those stops are well marked and usually convenient. It's easier to know which stop is yours and you don't have to worry about it.

As well, a tram line is visible, you know where it goes. When you see a sign that says "bus stop" and that's it, who knows what bus, or where that bus goes, where it came from, and how long until the next. If you got on a train that said to UBC, you would know it was going down Broadway as that is where the tracks are. If you got on a bus that says to UBC, who knows if it goes down Broadway, 4th, 12th, 16th, or any combination. That's the "reliability" that trams bring over buses.

When you start to give it some dedicated ROW, the "reliability" increases as it can avoid many traffic disruptions. But if it's still on a surface street, it will meet many still. As well, a tram down Broadway will still have to follow traffic speed limits. There is a reason there are speed limits around pedestrians, and LRT would be no exception. The actual reliability will improve marginally, and I think it wouldn't, and historically hasn't, attract more riders than just a street car, which isn't that much more than just a bus.

When you add grade separation, the reliability is completely external to road influence, thus much higher, both real and perceived. You can have city wide gridlock and the trains can run unimpeded. That brings people out en mass, 100% reliability. You also have the benefits of the other rail modes like marked stations and clearly defined routes. You also have no speed limit (except engineering wise) so trains are much faster in getting you where you are going, which brings out the "my car is faster" crowd. There are two groups of car users, the my car is more convienient crowd, and the my car is faster crowd, high speed metro brings out both. LRT only brings out the convenient.

Tram is better than bus because it can bring out a few extra riders a bus never would. As well, you can transport more people per driver on a tram (lower employee costs). LRT is better than tram because you have a bit of segregation from traffic and more efficiency than tram. But Metro is better than LRT in urban areas because they are completely external to any interference, thus are faster and more reliable.

In other words the more frequent, less stopping, faster average speed and less congestion that any mode of transport has. The better is perceived and is to be. All of those factors in their own way contribute to a short travel time.

And so the majority of people will choose the mode of transport that has the most wins in all those categories. This is only assuming that someone is making a choice on which mode of transport to use without the added factor of cost being involved.

[deasine]

Funny enough, over at the SSC forum, members are debating about the fact that Metro LA built some of the lines as LRT standard rather than metro standard.

[officedweller]

Of interest TTC Eglinton LRT report
- large file: download as target

http://www3.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Commiss...17_2009/Reports/Eglinton_Crosstown_L.pdf

[kylemacmac]

Toronto is throwing down big on LRT for sure!

But I'm still 100% for grade-separated Skytrain to UBC.

Somewhat related, but the cost effectiveness of Metro/LRT systems in many U.S. cities is absolutely atrocious:

http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/under-consideration/planned-light-rail-systems/

The proposed Philadelphia PATCO extension will cost nearly $3 Billion and only expects to draw about 30 000 riders.
The Honolulu mainlie LRT is estimated to cost $5.3 Billion and hopes to draw 90 000 daily riders.
BART to San Jose for $6 Billion, attracting 90 000 daily riders.
etc. etc.

Yeah, I'm just pulling bad numbers at random, and there are better costs per rider lines being set up, but the fact remains that the $3 Billion cost of constructing the Millennium Line out to UBC will likely yield a very respectable number of riders. A connected Millennium Skytrain line from UBC to Clark could easily attract more than 100 000 riders right away, with a much higher ridership down the line if the area densifies further, and more riders spill onto the system from the Expo and Millennium lines. This is a cheap per rider cost when you compare it to many similar systems being built down in the states. Not sure if Translink can pull this off with their current funding issues, but a line to UBC will be a great investment for the future, and draw many more thousands of people a day to transit.

A solid investment to a lively and dense central urban area!

[Zassk]

^ And let's face it, there is still huge growth potential for UBC itself, both the campus and the community. The time may come where UBC exceeds most members of Metro Vancouver in terms of population and employment.

[SFUVancouver]

Re: densification along the Clark-UBC corridor

It is already happening, even in advance of the line.

Main/Kingsway and Broadway is generating a lot of new growth and I have heard that the Main Street corridor between Broadway and SEFC will be the next planning project on the front burner after the NEFC high level review.

Central Broadway is continuing to grow, with a fair sized office building in the immediate pipeline, thanks in no small part to the Canada Line. Subtle but continuous infill is happening in Fairview Slopes and the VGH/Cambie Village shoulder area. New VGH labs and buildings are in the works or under construction like the new cyclotron and the joint pavillion, plus major renovations are underway in several buildings on the east side of the precinct.

The Arbutus/Broadway area has seen significant growth over the last decade wholly in advance of any planned rapid transit. In fact my preferred scale of development along the corridor is that of the Arbutus Walk development on the old O'Keefe brewery site between Arbutus/12th/12th and Vine(?).

[WarrenC12]

I don't think you will find many opponents here. $3B will be a tough nut to crack though. We can hope for record high NG prices I guess, those seem to drive big revenues for the provincial government.

And the minor issue of the overall structure of Translink itself.

[CLC]

A vancouver blog article:

Alternatives to Broadway Corridor SkyTrain
http://www.beyondrobson.com/city/2009/11/alternatives_to_broadway_corridor_skytrain/

Not recommended reading as it contains quite a bit of misleading "fact"

[The_Henry_Man]

Originally Posted by CLC

A vancouver blog article:

Alternatives to Broadway Corridor SkyTrain
http://www.beyondrobson.com/city/2009/11/alternatives_to_broadway_corridor_skytrain/

Not recommended reading as it contains quite a bit of misleading "fact"

If the author doesn't approve my post. Here its is:

--------

Dumb article.

Both LRT and streetcars through Broadway are epic fail. In your article, you're totally ignoring the enormous amount of space that'll take to construct stations, and that'll easily necessitate the removal of MORE THAN one lane each way.

And you're saying that the underground Skytrain construction will be much more destructive than the LRT construction on Broadway????!!! Check THIS out:
http://dcnonl.com/article/id35019
BTW, the Millenium Line extension to UBC will most likely NOT built underneath Broadway, it's more likely on W.10th.

And you're saying that parking lanes should be removed permanently on Broadway? NO WAY that'll happen, the same NIMBY West Broadway Business Improvement Association will never allow that.

LRT is NOT cheaper to maintain. You need drivers to drive it, and that means HIGH COSTS due to unions. And also it's more likely that there'll be accidents between cars and trains, so that the LRT system will be shut down very often in order to clean up the mess, leading to frequent delay of service.

Streetcar is no more than a GLORIFIED bus line that offers very little improvements over the 99 B-Line with a colossal waste of money equal to the NDP Fast Ferries Fiasco.

W.Broadway will NEVER be wide enough to successfully implement LRT/streetcar technology. The fact that so many people still want LRT on Broadway in the face of the obvious choice of the M-Line underground extension to UBC (due to MANY obvious reasons) REALLY surprises and shocks me. There should be more than 80%-85% of the people in Metro Vancouver supporting this. The method of rapid transit to UBC is just THAT obvious.

This article = epic fail.

-------

Man, why is everyone still beating a dead horse? This can only happen in Vancouver. Sounds like the author is a clone of Zweisystem and Malcolm Johnston. In fact, I even bumped into a comment written by Zweisystem on Richmond News website. Looks like Zweisystem is pushing his own weird fantasy views everywhere in all Vancouver local media/newspaper outlets. Man, does he even have a life?? He has way too much time in his hands thinking about his 19th century style streetcar fantasy system!!

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by The_Henry_Man

If the author doesn't approve my post. Here its is:

....

Man, why is everyone still beating a dead horse? This can only happen in Vancouver. Sounds like the author is a clone of Zweisystem and Malcolm Johnston. In fact, I even bumped into a comment written by Zweisystem on Richmond News website. Looks like Zweisystem is pushing his own weird fantasy views everywhere in all Vancouver local media/newspaper outlets. Man, does he even have a life?? He has way too much time in his hands thinking about his 19th century style streetcar fantasy system!!

Until there are rebuttals to Zweisystem printed in the same papers & websites that he is using, the readers of those media sites & papers will only hear Zweisystem's distorted views. It's one thing for us to argue (for and against) Zweisystem in these SSP forums, but if the general public don't hear our arguments they will only have Zweisystem's views to make up their minds on these issues.

Perhaps Zweisystem needs his own "Truthers" following him around.