Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

That’s funny because in just about any European country asking a question in English is just fine and not taken as a sign of disrespect!

Even in Mexico City, which I've spent a lot of time in, the attitude towards English speakers is completely different from Quebec. When I've been there I've always asked first if someone speaks English, but people there are very happy to speak English if they get the opportunity. They don't see it as a threat, they see it as an opportunity.

You will find Kentucky Fried Chicken and Scotiabank there, not their Spanish equivalents. And literally nobody there cares that the names aren't translated to Spanish.

I also find it interesting how strongly Spanish thrives in areas of the US like Southern California, despite there being absolutely no legislative protection of the Spanish language in the US or California. They are, of course, right next door to Mexico, but there are other areas of the US far away from Mexico, Cuba, or Puerto Rico where Spanish thrives; notably Chicago and New York City.

I am, by the way, at least part French Canadian with Quebecois roots going back centuries, though we are more Franco-Ontarien nowadays.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

Even in Mexico, which I've spent a lot of time in, the attitude towards English speakers is completely different from Quebec. When I've been there I've always asked first if someone speaks English, but people there are very happy to speak English if they get the opportunity. They don't see it as a threat, they see it as an opportunity.

You will find Kentucky Fried Chicken and Scotiabank there, not their Spanish equivalents. And literally nobody there cares that the names aren't translated to Spanish.

The difference of course being that Quebec has a little over 8 million francophones surrounded by an anglophone sea of 350 million. Of course they feel a bit threated and defensive.

Mexico on the other hand has over 100 million people, and there are more Spanish speakers in the Americas than there are anglophones. They don't feel nearly as threatened as Quebec francophones do.

[dleung]

Originally Posted by harls

What I have a problem with is people coming to Quebec and not even trying to ask for something in French. Even if you don't know French, the tiny jesture is enough to invoke sympathy. Belligerent assholes that demand to be served in 'my language' would turn off anyone.

Going to Quebec and expecting it like to be Kitchener is stupid and old timey.

Originally Posted by harls

Look here, Sipowicz. If I went to Spain and spoke broken Spanish to the dude at my hotel, you think I would have a better experience at said hotel if I were a flip flop wearing old crank from Winnipeg?

I didn't know speaking English adds flip flops and 30 years to my age

Hats off to whoever manages to learn the language of every country they'll ever visit, but no one needs to endure hearing my grade 9 BC french lol

[le calmar]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

Even in Mexico City, which I've spent a lot of time in, the attitude towards English speakers is completely different from Quebec. When I've been there I've always asked first if someone speaks English, but people there are very happy to speak English if they get the opportunity. They don't see it as a threat, they see it as an opportunity.

You will find Kentucky Fried Chicken and Scotiabank there, not their Spanish equivalents. And literally nobody there cares that the names aren't translated to Spanish.

I also find it interesting how strongly Spanish thrives in areas of the US like Southern California, despite there being absolutely no legislative protection of the Spanish language in the US or California. They are, of course, right next door to Mexico, but there are other areas of the US far away from Mexico, Cuba, or Puerto Rico where Spanish thrives; notably Chicago and New York City.

I am, by the way, at least part French Canadian with Quebecois roots going back centuries, though we are more Franco-Ontarien nowadays.

That’s because there is no association between language and politics down there. But try doing that in places where there is a strong correlation between language, identity and politics and you won’t get the same result. Try speaking French in the Flanders for example - a lot of people will vigorously refuse to answer you in French although most could handle a basic conversation in French.

I’m not a French language pusher by any means - I’m an advocate for bilingualism, but yeah, speaking English can sometimes rub some people the wrong way in some parts of Quebec. That’s why I told my wife to at least initiate the conversation in French with a “bonjour”. It gives the impression that she’s at least trying, if just a tiny bit. And I like to do this abroad too. People appreciate that I at least put in the effort to learn some basic words

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

The difference of course being that Quebec has a little over 8 million francophones surrounded by an anglophone sea of 350 million. Of course they feel a bit threated and defensive.

Mexico on the other hand has over 100 million people, and there are more Spanish speakers in the Americas than there are anglophones. They don't feel nearly as threatened as Quebec francophones do.

Exactly. Mexico is also an independent country, and Quebec is not.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Exactly. Mexico is also an independent country, and Quebec is not.

The Quebec mindset is entirely understandable, but this still shouldn't give them license to run roughshod over the rights of their own linguistic minorities however.

I've made this analogy before - Quebecois are like Israelis and anglo-Quebeckers are like Palestinians in the West Bank. The Israelis are surrounded by a couple of hundred million Arabs, and view their own Palestinian minority as an existential threat. The Palestinians are made to pay for Israel's situation.

Anglo-Quebeckers are the Palestinians of North America..........

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by le calmar

That’s because there is no association between language and politics down there. But try doing that in places where there is a strong correlation between language, identity and politics and you won’t get the same result. Try speaking French in the Flanders for example - a lot of people will vigorously refuse to answer you in French although most could handle a basic conversation in French.

I’m not a French language pusher by any means - I’m an advocate for bilingualism, but yeah, speaking English can sometimes rub some people the wrong way in some parts of Quebec. That’s why I told my wife to at least initiate the conversation in French with a “bonjour”. It gives the impression that she’s at least trying, if just a tiny bit. And I like to do this abroad too. People appreciate that I at least put in the effort to learn some basic words

I can agree with everything said here.

And I have experienced Flanders, and the incredibly thin skin of the Flemish (being part Flemish myself, but with no command of the language...whereas I do speak French). I have seen people refused service in Flanders just because they spoke French, even though their interlocutor was able to speak French (but chose not to out of principle).

The Flemish today are somewhat like the Quebecois were in the 1970s (I remember this time quite well), when things were far more sensitive and the threat of assimilation was more palpable, also at a time when Quebec nationalism largely morphed into the push for Quebec sovereignty, and also at a time when many of my fellow Anglos were incapable or unwilling to pick up some French language abilities.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by harls

Look here, Sipowicz.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Acajack

What I love most about the "travels in Quebec" stories are the mind-readers.

As in "there was this lady who wouldn't speak to me in English, only in French, even though I know for sure that she knew English".

I think that may be the analogue of the world famous Fat English Saleslady at Eaton's that asked Francophone shoppers to "Speak White"

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by le calmar

That’s why I told my wife to at least initiate the conversation in French with a “bonjour”. It gives the impression that she’s at least trying, if just a tiny bit. And I like to do this abroad too. People appreciate that I at least put in the effort to learn some basic words

As my only experience in Quebec is as a tourist, I always try to greet with a "bonjour" and stumble through some conversation in my high-school level, mostly-forgotten-from-not-having-many-opportunities-to-use-it French.

The only caveat I have to that is when you are being served in a restaurant or other business in a tourist area such as Montreal, where the server usually uses your greeting as a test to determine which language to use to communicate with you. I've extended the "bonjour" only to be confused by a very quickly-spoken reply in French, after which I had to awkwardly say that I didn't understand... then they would speak to me in English. It's usually kind of fun in that they get some amusement out of it (as do I), but if they're really busy I feel they just want to get the language thing figured out so they can move on.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

I think that may be the analogue of the world famous Fat English Saleslady at Eaton's that asked Francophone shoppers to "Speak White"

I wonder if she even existed, or was she a purely a construct to push forward the sovereigntist agenda.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I wonder if she even existed, or was she a purely a construct to push forward the sovereigntist agenda.

Sounds like a story that my friend's sister relayed after a backpacking trip through Europe in the 1980s, of how Americans would ask "Esque-tu parler Americain?" This did happen on a regular basis, apparently.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I wonder if she even existed, or was she a purely a construct to push forward the sovereigntist agenda.

This was definitely part of sovereignist mythology, though there are two distinct things:

- the "grosse maudite anglaise chez Eaton qui ne parle pas français" comment was actually made by a Liberal minister of the Bourassa government in 1989, by the name of Pierre MacDonald.

- Speak White is actually a poem from 1968: http://dormirajamais.org/speak-white/

It's often alleged that no one ever told anyone in Quebec to "speak white", but it actually happened to my wife when she was younger. By a bus driver in an Ontario city, though.

It's never happened to me.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

it actually happened to my wife when she was younger. By a bus driver in an Ontario city, though.

I'm sorry to hear that.

But that was in Ontario though, not Quebec. About what year did this happen? Was this at a time of inflamed linguistic or sovereigntist passion? Was this in southern Ontario, or in a region with a sizeable French speaking minority? If the latter, this is not forgivable.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

I think that may be the analogue of the world famous Fat English Saleslady at Eaton's that asked Francophone shoppers to "Speak White"

My anecdote most often comes up online when people are discussing their travels in Quebec.

The gold medal winner is when people say that some random Quebec person refused to speak to them in English in spite of knowing the language, and that they know this for a fact because this same Quebec person was later overheard speaking English to others (staff or friends).

Which is patently ridiculous because anyone who knows nationalist Québécois is aware that the type who'd refuse to speak to someone in English would never use English in casual conversations with francophone work colleagues, friends or family.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Which is patently ridiculous because anyone who knows nationalist Québécois is aware that the type who'd refuse to speak to someone in English would never use English in casual conversations with francophone work colleagues, friends or family.

Maybe if they were Acadian............

I personally find Chiac both interesting and amusing.

[MolsonExport]

I got called a Maudit Bloke, and a Tête Carrée several times. Just for speaking English too loudly to my companion. I usually replied with a flurry of Joual-style epithets.

Much more often was "Ici, c'est Québec, et ici on parle français!!" That was common, especially during the 80s.

[MolsonExport]

Which is patently ridiculous because anyone who knows nationalist Québécois is aware that the type who'd refuse to speak to someone in English would never use English in casual conversations with francophone work colleagues, friends or family.

Lucien Bouchard and his (then) wife Audrey Best and their children were patients at the Dental clinic that my mother worked at in Westmount. My mom and her colleagues would speak french to the kids when they came in for their checkups and filings (and/or orthodontics, which was the specialty at that clinic), but they wanted to converse in English. Apparently Lucien Bouchard used English almost exclusively with his (then) wife and kids.

[Marshsparrow]

If someone or a tourist doesn't like the service they receive at a store, restaurant, attraction, etc. - go somewhere else or start your own. Anglophones who live in Quebec (especially those most recently moved there) and complain about being treated as below second class citizens - I am not sure what you expected - it won't change and it won't get better.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Marshsparrow

If someone or a tourist doesn't like the service they receive at a store, restaurant, attraction, etc. - go somewhere else or start your own. Anglophones who live in Quebec (especially those most recently moved there) and complain about being treated as below second class citizens - I am not sure what you expected - it won't change and it won't get better.

I suspect Anglophone complaints nowadays relate more to education and medical care than they do to the service the receive in shops.