ATLANTA | Development Thread VI

[jwbab]

Originally Posted by ATLontheRISE

I want the area to be done like the MGM DC- Maryland site.

LOL! look at the street view.

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.7955071,...n3iwj6xYWvL-w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

I am not against a casino downtown, but the DC Casino is a poor example to use. If this is what we can expect then no thanks! The last thing we need in our urban core is another monolithic, car-centric, Portman-like development with zero street level activation. That street view is just scary from a pedestrian perspective. If this is the plan, put that crap out in the suburbs or at the airport!

[Hokiehaven]

Originally Posted by jwbab

LOL! look at the street view.

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.7955071,...n3iwj6xYWvL-w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

I am not against a casino downtown, but the DC Casino is a poor example to use. If this is what we can expect then no thanks! The last thing we need in our urban core is another monolithic, car-centric, Portman-like development with zero street level activation. That street view is just scary from a pedestrian perspective. If this is the plan, put that crap out in the suburbs or at the airport!

I agree, it's probably coming and I'm not for it like yourself, but if DC is the best we can hope for, that doesn't bode well for anything pedestrian friendly.

There will be a time in the not too distant future that money will flood organically into Downtown, perhaps in some respects as soon as Peachtree Pine is dealt with and to lock off yet another massive block to an isolationist project like this right there with GWCC and the Dome, will only hurt the potential growth. The casino will keep people there and it's a destination anyway no matter where it goes.

[pica]

Originally Posted by jwbab

LOL! look at the street view.

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.7955071,...n3iwj6xYWvL-w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

I am not against a casino downtown, but the DC Casino is a poor example to use. If this is what we can expect then no thanks! The last thing we need in our urban core is another monolithic, car-centric, Portman-like development with zero street level activation. That street view is just scary from a pedestrian perspective. If this is the plan, put that crap out in the suburbs or at the airport!

Look at that sad, narrow little sidewalk to nowhere ringing the perimeter. And the base of the building... it's like they attempted to emulate what it'd have looked like if the Aztecs or ancient Egyptians had designed a parking garage. I don't want anything remotely like that in my neighborhood.

Originally Posted by Atlanta3000

Just so we are all on the same page

The pic below is the most likely area a casino would go if it is in Downtown. Does any seriously believe there is any other appropriate use for this site other than a casino? Considering it is surrounded by government buildings without street level retail, Philips Arena, Falcons Stadium and a 3 Million sqft. convention center. This area is not "neighborhood friendly" ALREADY and never will be.

JFC; I don't think I'm going to get excited about an argument that boils down to "this part of town sucks, so let's build a shitty building there."

[Nanosolar]

I'm surprised at many of you pro-casino folks. It's not like this hasn't been tried before in other cities. It is not inevitable. Casinos are a bottom feeder industry. Preying primarily on the poor, elderly, and uneducated. CAP did a study on a casinos impact on Atlanta and Georgia. It is simply not true that most of the customers are tourists. Most are local residents spending money at the casino vs elsewhere in the local economy. Spending time at the casino vs something entrepreneurial or for the community.

Casinos do not generate additional sources of revenue. Even taxed at a higher rate as proposed it is far from clear this would be beneficial. Looking at other cities as case studies we can see casinos did not improve the local economy, education, or social fabric of the community. In fact, casinos were a highly negative influence.

http://www.atlantadowntown.com/_files/docs/orgia---cap_adid-final-report-1-2017---reduced.pdf

[scania]

Originally Posted by Nanosolar

I'm surprised at many of you pro-casino folks. It's not like this hasn't been tried before in other cities. It is not inevitable. Casinos are a bottom feeder industry. Preying primarily on the poor, elderly, and uneducated. CAP did a study on a casinos impact on Atlanta and Georgia. It is simply not true that most of the customers are tourists. Most are local residents spending money at the casino vs elsewhere in the local economy. Spending time at the casino vs something entrepreneurial or for the community.

Casinos do not generate additional sources of revenue. Even taxed at a higher rate as proposed it is far from clear this would be beneficial. Looking at other cities as case studies we can see casinos did not improve the local economy, education, or social fabric of the community. In fact, casinos were a highly negative influence.

http://www.atlantadowntown.com/_files/docs/orgia---cap_adid-final-report-1-2017---reduced.pdf

Basing an opinion because of the C A P..... Casinos are entertainment for some. There are casinos in Vegas that caters to the wealthy and some that caters to the poor. This goes for wine, liquor, etc. Some people hate when I say this, but this small minded, Bible Belt, attitude does nothing for the progression of Atlanta. That study is about as ridiculous as when all these studies came out about how selling alcohol on Sunday would be a major downfall in Georgia.

[Pemgin]

Saw a billboard for No2 Opus Place along the connector. Hopefully they have an aggressive sales strategy.

[Atlanta3000]

Originally Posted by Nanosolar

I'm surprised at many of you pro-casino folks. It's not like this hasn't been tried before in other cities. It is not inevitable. Casinos are a bottom feeder industry. Preying primarily on the poor, elderly, and uneducated. CAP did a study on a casinos impact on Atlanta and Georgia. It is simply not true that most of the customers are tourists. Most are local residents spending money at the casino vs elsewhere in the local economy. Spending time at the casino vs something entrepreneurial or for the community.

Casinos do not generate additional sources of revenue. Even taxed at a higher rate as proposed it is far from clear this would be beneficial. Looking at other cities as case studies we can see casinos did not improve the local economy, education, or social fabric of the community. In fact, casinos were a highly negative influence.

http://www.atlantadowntown.com/_files/docs/orgia---cap_adid-final-report-1-2017---reduced.pdf

The same could be said about alcohol. Do you suggest we close all of the bars because of the impact on society - all classes, color and gender?

The bottom line is this is an opportunity to have a $2 Billion PRIVATE investment in Downtown. It will bring 2000 hotel rooms, entertainment, retail, employee 3000 people (with average $37K salary) albeit will have a shitty street presence and not be "neighborhood friendly" in a place that is currently a 117 acre asphalt parking lot with no planned or future developments.

Frankly I am surprised by your and other's view....

[ATL_J]

The casino lobbyists have been hitting representatives hard these pass few years. So, I'd love to see the people proposing the casino legislation open up about what they've received from lobbyists. Also, if Brandon Beach thinks a casino is so great, he should propose it for his community of Alpharetta.

The people claiming that a casino would have a positive impact on Downtown are blissfully ignorant of how casino's operate. First, the majority of their offerings are loss leaders to bring people into the casino. How many beds would this casino bring? 500? 1,000? One of the issues facing the construction of new hotels in the downtown area is the low ADR (average daily rate). It needs to be at a certain level to justify new construction, especially with the increasing scarcity of land and rising land values. A casino dropping 1,000 hotel rooms, which they use as a loss leader, would absolutely tank the hotel market in this area.

Then you consider the entertainment components, which again, would hurt nearby entertainment venues such as The Tabernacle. Then you consider the 10-15 restaurants, which would be included to try to keep people inside the casino, instead of frequenting outside establishments, further hurting Downtown.

There is no positive for Downtown to have this casino. I could see the argument for it to be at an entertainment complex within the airport, but even then you'd be drawing entertainment dollars away from other places like say the aquarium, college football hall of fame, etc.

For example, Downtown does great with the Chick-fil-A Kickoff Classic. These people come for the game, not because a casino is here. But if a casino was there, it would be undercutting other hotels in the area with its low room rates, then many of those people would probably enjoy to gamble, as opposed to going out to bars, restaurants, and other entertainment venues in the area, further hurting their business. They would eat at the casino's restaurants, as opposed to local places, which are often packed during these events.

The only way I'd see it making any sense for Downtown is if they allowed them to do a full casino, with no restaurants, hotel, or entertainment included. Then its just another place to go dump money, but wouldn't affect the local restaurants and hotels as severely.

Anyways, I'm against it, as it would not benefit the local community at all. Atlanta isn't struggling to attract tourist or conventioneers.

[ATL_J]

Originally Posted by Atlanta3000

The same could be said about alcohol. Do you suggest we close all of the bars because of the impact on society - all classes, color and gender?

The bottom line is this is an opportunity to have a $2 Billion PRIVATE investment in Downtown. It will bring 2000 hotel rooms, entertainment, retail, employee 3000 people (with average $37K salary) albeit will have a shitty street presence and not be "neighborhood friendly" in a place that is currently a 117 acre asphalt parking lot with no planned or future developments.

Frankly I am surprised by your and other's view....

Honest question. You say it'll bring 3,000 jobs. Great. No one hates jobs, right? But dumping 2,000 loss leading hotel rooms (using your number of hotel rooms) into downtown would have a negative impact of nearby hotels, probably forcing a few to close their doors. So now we have loss jobs - how many? How many restaurants will close, or be forced to close, due to a lack of business now that the insular designed casino keeps people off the street? Now we've lose more jobs. I would argue, and there are studies out there that address this, that the NET GAIN of jobs is very small due to the negative impacts on the surrounding community.

And again, these not great jobs.

While the gulch is an eyesore, I'd much rather let organic, natural development take place as people continue to invest in downtown (numerous new apartment buildings, Newport / WRS investment in underground, demographic shifts back to urban places).

I'm opposed to say people shouldn't be allowed to gamble, I think they should, but I do not think plopping this down in an urban neighborhood is a positive.

[ATLontheRISE]

Originally Posted by Nanosolar

I'm surprised at many of you pro-casino folks. It's not like this hasn't been tried before in other cities. It is not inevitable. Casinos are a bottom feeder industry. Preying primarily on the poor, elderly, and uneducated. CAP did a study on a casinos impact on Atlanta and Georgia. It is simply not true that most of the customers are tourists. Most are local residents spending money at the casino vs elsewhere in the local economy. Spending time at the casino vs something entrepreneurial or for the community.

Casinos do not generate additional sources of revenue. Even taxed at a higher rate as proposed it is far from clear this would be beneficial. Looking at other cities as case studies we can see casinos did not improve the local economy, education, or social fabric of the community. In fact, casinos were a highly negative influence.

http://www.atlantadowntown.com/_files/docs/orgia---cap_adid-final-report-1-2017---reduced.pdf

You're wasting your energy. The casinos are coming. 2 billion dollars to an area that has never had anything close to that type of investment is hard to pass up on. The area that the casino is mostly going to will never ever be an urban walkable living community. I just wish some of you guys would stop selling wooden nickels and be honest.

This entire argument about social fabric and blah blah blah. Is kinda why Trunp won the electoral college. Nose stuck in the air. How can anyone refuse 2 billion dollars to an area that has a very limited purpose to begin with.

Spend time making sure that the side walk experience is amazing. And public safety is top notch. Don't spend time with these crazy social fabric arguements. Or that casinos are only for bottom feeder cities.

[ATL_J]

Originally Posted by ATLontheRISE

You're wasting your energy. The casinos are coming. 2 billion dollars to an area that has never had anything close to that type of investment is hard to pass up on. The area that the casino is mostly going to will never ever be an urban walkable living community. I just wish some of you guys would stop selling wooden nickels and be honest.

This entire argument about social fabric and blah blah blah. Is kinda why Trunp won the electoral college. Nose stuck in the air. How can anyone refuse 2 billion dollars to an area that has a very limited purpose to begin with.

Spend time making sure that the side walk experience is amazing. And public safety is top notch. Don't spend time with these crazy social fabric arguements. Or that casinos are only for bottom feeder cities.

Do you live here? The site is adjacent to Castleberry Hill and Fairlie Poplar, both highly urban, walkable communities, not to mention the strong investment push into South Downtown which could easily turn into a highly liveable neighborhood (walkability is not a issue here).

If you think a $2 billion, insular development, that will definitely have a negative impact on nearby businesses and would stunt opportunity growth in nearby communities, while also providing little tax digest for the city, is a positive, then our definition of positive is clearly different.

It is a quick solution that would benefit a few at the expense of many. I would encourage everyone to have a longer term vision and more patience.

[Atlanta3000]

Cornucopia of Developments

Perimeter - Grand Bohemian Hotel and Condo Towers
Development with Grand Bohemian Hotel - Prestige / amenities. The development plan will consist of a new Four Diamond Grand Bohemian Hotel with all related amenities on the northern portion of the site. The tract would be subdivided to allow a separate condominium site adjacent the hotel. The condominium site would be an approximately 35,000 SF pad site that is envisioned to be developed with a high-rise luxury condominium tower in conjunction with the Grand Bohemian Hotel. The two uses are planned to be developed simultaneously.
https://res.cloudinary.com/cslistings/im...x.xceligent.com/Attachments/156/10186156


O4W - StudioPlex Alley
19 town homes and 30K sqft of retail.

https://res.cloudinary.com/cslistings/im...x.xceligent.com/Attachments/852/12157852


Buckhead - Moderna

https://res.cloudinary.com/cslistings/im...x.xceligent.com/Attachments/624/12157624

[Student]

If Downtown is selected for the casino, can't we just fight to make sure the design is up to our pedestrian-oriented/street activation standards? Make these needs very clear to our leaders on the front end. With that in mind, who has the authority in Downtown/Atlanta to hold developers accountable in that way?

[scania]

Originally Posted by ATL_J

Do you live here? The site is adjacent to Castleberry Hill and Fairlie Poplar, both highly urban, walkable communities, not to mention the strong investment push into South Downtown which could easily turn into a highly liveable neighborhood (walkability is not a issue here).

If you think a $2 billion, insular development, that will definitely have a negative impact on nearby businesses and would stunt opportunity growth in nearby communities, while also providing little tax digest for the city, is a positive, then our definition of positive is clearly different.

It is a quick solution that would benefit a few at the expense of many. I would encourage everyone to have a longer term vision and more patience.

I live here...own several properties. Casinos will bring in tourist 365 days a year. As well as draw in locals back to downtown 365 days a year. As far as special events...if gives people more of a reason to not stay in the hotel rooms.

[Atlanta3000]

Originally Posted by ATL_J

Honest question. You say it'll bring 3,000 jobs. Great. No one hates jobs, right? But dumping 2,000 loss leading hotel rooms (using your number of hotel rooms) into downtown would have a negative impact of nearby hotels, probably forcing a few to close their doors. So now we have loss jobs - how many? How many restaurants will close, or be forced to close, due to a lack of business now that the insular designed casino keeps people off the street? Now we've lose more jobs. I would argue, and there are studies out there that address this, that the NET GAIN of jobs is very small due to the negative impacts on the surrounding community.

And again, these not great jobs.

While the gulch is an eyesore, I'd much rather let organic, natural development take place as people continue to invest in downtown (numerous new apartment buildings, Newport / WRS investment in underground, demographic shifts back to urban places).

I'm opposed to say people shouldn't be allowed to gamble, I think they should, but I do not think plopping this down in an urban neighborhood is a positive.

Wether you believe it or not, people travel to casinos and conventions have higher attendance rates in Las Vegas (except Orlando) than most US cities because of casinos/entertainment. So your dire prediction of the Downtown hotel market are completely baseless. Adding a casino with 2000 rooms would not take pieces of the pie(Downtown hotel market) - it would grow the pie.

And again, these not great jobs.

Atlanta has done a fantastic job attracting/expanding high earning employment. But the fact is, Atlanta has done a shitty job attracting employment for those without high school/college degrees. There is almost a 25% unemployment rate in Atlanta for those without post secondary education. So you may not think a casino job ($37K average salary) is great, I know at least 3000 people who would. It

[testarossa50]

I'll throw my lot in with the NO side on the casino argument.

I mean yeah, they can be built well. But they won't. The whole point of a casino is to be insular and keep people inside. Hutchinson Island would be a better choice. Savannah legit lacks hotel rooms, and it would be another bonafide tourist attraction.

I actually think they should consider tearing down Lenox and building a massive new casino/hotel/mall development on the site, with numerous towers. Buckhead already lacks a good street presence and this will be an improvement over baseline. It will draw tourism and entertainment up into that part of the city. But I know that's a radical proposition.

[Atlanta3000]

Originally Posted by testarossa50

I'll throw my lot in with the NO side on the casino argument.

I mean yeah, they can be built well. But they won't. The whole point of a casino is to be insular and keep people inside. Hutchinson Island would be a better choice. Savannah legit lacks hotel rooms, and it would be another bonafide tourist attraction.

I actually think they should consider tearing down Lenox and building a massive new casino/hotel/mall development on the site, with numerous towers. Buckhead already lacks a good street presence and this will be an improvement over baseline. It will draw tourism and entertainment up into that part of the city. But I know that's a radical proposition.

I omit I was wrong - an insular development here is completely out of place and would detract from the thriving "neighborhood friendly" community.

[ATL_J]

Originally Posted by Atlanta3000

Wether you believe it or not, people travel to casinos and conventions have higher attendance rates in Las Vegas (except Orlando) than most US cities because of casinos/entertainment. So your dire prediction of the Downtown hotel market are completely baseless. Adding a casino with 2000 rooms would not take pieces of the pie(Downtown hotel market) - it would grow the pie.


Atlanta has done a fantastic job attracting/expanding high earning employment. But the fact is, Atlanta has done a shitty job attracting employment for those without high school/college degrees. There is almost a 25% unemployment rate in Atlanta for those without post secondary education. So you may not think a casino job ($37K average salary) is great, I know at least 3000 people who would. It

Your lack of understanding on how casinos operate hotel-wise is apparent and I'd curious to know how you know my "predictions" to be baseless? Care to share what you do for a living and where your knowledge stems from? I see you live in Buckhead? Is this why you feel Downtown should be where the hotel is put? Why not Buckhead, since you seem to think a casino is such a great benefit to the community? Buckhead gets less tourist than Downtown (who, by your admission, clearly needs help in this industry), certainly this would help Buckhead.

And lastly, you keep talking about jobs, without considering the adverse affects that people have talked about ad nauseum. 3,000 jobs does not equal a positive impact if it eliminates 4,000 jobs, that would be a net loss. Plenty of studies have shown how this works. However, I'm curious, considering your insistence, where your expertise comes from on this topic?

There is plenty of literature out there showing the adverse affects that these sorts of developments have on cities, but I'm wondering where you get your knowledge / facts on the positives?

I'll wait for your response.

[Atlanta3000]

Exhibit A - "Insular" MGM Casino Development Boston

Folks this extreme "neighborhood UNfriendliness" at it's pinnacle. Don't let the large open landscaped sidewalks, street retail, impeccably disguised parking decks fool you. This is a dark chasm of HELL - FIRE - SIN...Scary shit.

Project Statistics:
MGM Springfield, an $800 million investment, is designed to ignite an urban revival. MGM and its professional partners worked painstakingly to put together a design that celebrates the history of Springfield while moving the Gateway City into a new era of commerce and economic opportunity.

Plans also envision a high-energy dining, retail and entertainment district with an eight-screen cinema, bowling alley and an outdoor stage. This will be developed by Davenport Properties of Boston, MA, in partnership with MGM on land now occupied by the tornado-ravaged South End Community Center and Howard Street School.

MGM Springfield will bring 3,000 permanent jobs and 2,000 construction jobs to Downtown Springfield. MGM has established a hiring goal of 35 percent of the workforce from the City of Springfield and 90 percent from a combination of Springfield and the region. Additionally, MGM Springfield has entered into surrounding community agreements with neighboring communities providing for tens of millions of dollars.





• Video Link

[Atlanta3000]

Originally Posted by ATL_J

Your lack of understanding on how casinos operate hotel-wise is apparent and I'd curious to know how you know my "predictions" to be baseless? Care to share what you do for a living and where your knowledge stems from? I see you live in Buckhead? Is this why you feel Downtown should be where the hotel is put? Why not Buckhead, since you seem to think a casino is such a great benefit to the community? Buckhead gets less tourist than Downtown (who, by your admission, clearly needs help in this industry), certainly this would help Buckhead.

And lastly, you keep talking about jobs, without considering the adverse affects that people have talked about ad nauseum. 3,000 jobs does not equal a positive impact if it eliminates 4,000 jobs, that would be a net loss. Plenty of studies have shown how this works. However, I'm curious, considering your insistence, where your expertise comes from on this topic?

There is plenty of literature out there showing the adverse affects that these sorts of developments have on cities, but I'm wondering where you get your knowledge / facts on the positives?

I'll wait for your response.

I work in Big Data Science/Software and IHG and Hilton are some of my biggest clients. Care to share your bio?