Manitoba Highways

[drew]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

Climate would be relevant if one is comparing MB to Southern California. So it's climate when MB-75 is falling apart and when one crosses an invisible line, I-29 is good shape?

"ultimately it comes down to $$".

[drew]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

Climate would be relevant if one is comparing MB to Southern California. So it's climate when MB-75 is falling apart and when one crosses an invisible line, I-29 is good shape?

It seems you are angling for an online argument on this.

Maybe come back to us after you have researched the various construction techniques on MB highways, TCH, Interstates etc. etc. and do a comparison. How much more (or less) does highway infrastructure in MB cost compared to it's neighbours? What are the differences that would cause (for example) I-29 and MB-75 to be so seemingly different on either side of the border? Are Manitoba's road construction standards the same, superior or inferior to it's neighbours?

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

Climate would be relevant if one is comparing MB to Southern California. So it's climate when MB-75 is falling apart and when one crosses an invisible line, I-29 is good shape?

Originally Posted by drew

It seems you are angling for an online argument on this.

Maybe come back to us after you have researched the various construction techniques on MB highways, TCH, Interstates etc. etc. and do a comparison. How much more (or less) does highway infrastructure in MB cost compared to it's neighbours? What are the differences that would cause (for example) I-29 and MB-75 to be so seemingly different on either side of the border? Are Manitoba's road construction standards the same, superior or inferior to it's neighbours?

To make this whole thing sound less derisive, let me know the information pertaining to the Ontario side of things. I’m curious how much it will cost to build 4-lanes of TCH on a better alignment between Kenora and Dryden.
For real, that whole stretch between Kenora Airport and Vermillion Bay is crying for another round of realignment. I’m actually surprised that some rock cut depths are comparable to those on Lake Superior Shore. At those depths, one’s definitely concerned about the stability of the rock cuts.

[plrh]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

Climate would be relevant if one is comparing MB to Southern California. So it's climate when MB-75 is falling apart and when one crosses an invisible line, I-29 is good shape?

I-29 from the border to Grand Forks is as bad as anything in Manitoba, except with overpasses every 3 miles. It is full of potholes.

Also, the section of highway in the video is a city street in Brandon so should be compared with Portage Ave or 16th st in Calgary, it is not a highway.

Additionally, are we expected to build highways to attract more truck traffic? We have enough warehouse and truck-driving jobs here that we can't fill.

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by plrh

I-29 from the border to Grand Forks is as bad as anything in Manitoba, except with overpasses every 3 miles. It is full of potholes.

Also, the section of highway in the video is a city street in Brandon so should be compared with Portage Ave or 16th st in Calgary, it is not a highway.

Additionally, are we expected to build highways to attract more truck traffic? We have enough warehouse and truck-driving jobs here that we can't fill.

I just drove through North Dakota a few days ago. Did not notice many potholes, just a few. From what I could tell I29 was in good shape for the most part. Drove all the way to Fargo on I29 then took I94 all the way to Minneapolis which was awesome. Took the same rought back. The interstate system is great. Every road had an overpass.


Coming back to Manitoba, the highway was in good shape on this side also. The only difference was the country roads and having to drive though Morris and long stretch is that is under construction, you have to slow way down. Getting back to Winnipeg is where you notice how bad things are. I think Winnipeg would be well served by turning some major roads into freeways. Is it really such a crazy idea to turn Lag into a freeway? I mean it is pretty much already a highway, why not make it safer and faster? I am glad the south perimeter is finally getting turned into a freeway. This is long overdue. Some people on here are really against freeways, and I understand the reasons why. At the sametime though I think in some cases freeways are a good thing. Specially when looking at the American interstate system. They are not the solution for everything but they can also be very useful and if we're being honest cars are not going anywhere.

[esquire]

^ The age of slicing and dicing cities to push freeways through is gone, no one is advocating for a return to that. However, upgrading existing arterial routes and regional highways to carry more vehicles in light of a population that has grown significantly since most of them were built makes pretty good sense... we are finally doing that with the South Perimeter and the time has arguably come to do the same with certain routes within Winnipeg as well.

We keep adding people but we don't really do much to expand the transportation network beyond some marginal improvements... at some point something has to give before gridlock sets in.

[3de14eec6a]

Freeway vs highway doesn't necessarily make any difference to how it "slices and dices cities". They both create a rift that is difficult for non-car oriented traversal.

And turning _existing_ highways with horrendous intersections into freeways with pedestrian/cycling navigable interchanges could actually make many of them less of a problem.

[Luisito]

Yellowhead Trail in Edmonton is a good example. A highway with intersections is being turned into a freeway.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellowhead_Trail#Future

Due to heavy traffic volume, much of which is large trucks, Edmonton sought funding to upgrade Highway 16 within the bounds of Anthony Henday Drive to a freeway. In 2016, the city unveiled plans for a $1 billion freeway upgrade to the expressway, eliminating at-grade intersections and constructing new interchanges. Construction began in 2019 and is scheduled to be completed by 2026/2027.[12][13] As of mid-2023, Yellowhead Trail east of 50 Street has been widened from two to three lanes, with the interchange at Victoria Trail having been reconfigured. Conversion to freeway standards west of St. Albert Trail is scheduled to be completed by the end of 2023, which will see the removal of all at-grade crossings, particularly at 142 and 149 Streets. Access to these streets will be provided by right-in/right-out service roads. In 2023/2024, construction is also set to begin between St. Albert Trail and 97 Street, as well as between Fort Road and 50 Street. This will include the elimination of all remaining at-grade crossings, straightening of the alignment north of the former City-Centre Airport lands and the construction of new shoulders, service roads and interchanges at 127 Street, 121 Street and 66 Street.[14][15]

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by drew

It seems you are angling for an online argument on this.

Maybe come back to us after you have researched the various construction techniques on MB highways, TCH, Interstates etc. etc. and do a comparison. How much more (or less) does highway infrastructure in MB cost compared to it's neighbours? What are the differences that would cause (for example) I-29 and MB-75 to be so seemingly different on either side of the border? Are Manitoba's road construction standards the same, superior or inferior to it's neighbours?

It is rather obvious Manitoba's highways are not built to the same standards as US Interstates, Ontario 400-series highways, Nova Scotia 4-lane 100-series highways and New Brunswick's four-lane highways. Just drive them and one will see the differences. Aren't the "massive" upgrades to the Perimeter designed to bring the highway up to "Interstate standards"?

Take a drive on the TCH in NB and compare it to MB.

[WildCake]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

It is rather obvious Manitoba's highways are not built to the same standards as US Interstates, Ontario 400-series highways, Nova Scotia 4-lane 100-series highways and New Brunswick's four-lane highways. Just drive them and one will see the differences. Aren't the "massive" upgrades to the Perimeter designed to bring the highway up to "Interstate standards"?

Take a drive on the TCH in NB and compare it to MB.

Interstate standard in Manitoba is fancy/ lay-speak for freeway, not the actual construction standard to be used for the roadway unfortunately.

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by WildCake

Interstate standard in Manitoba is fancy/ lay-speak for freeway, not the actual construction standard to be used for the roadway unfortunately.

Yeah that term has been bandied about by quite a few people in politics to mean many different things. Manitobans are just conditioned to hear that we would be getting massive long distance freeways like in the US, even if what was being referred to is making the shoulders wider and making curves gentler.

I would love for a few of the highways here to actually be upgraded to what the interstates look like today, but we are too cheap and would never get enough money, certainly not with the amount of spending we have committed to other areas of government.

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

Yeah that term has been bandied about by quite a few people in politics to mean many different things. Manitobans are just conditioned to hear that we would be getting massive long distance freeways like in the US, even if what was being referred to is making the shoulders wider and making curves gentler.

I would love for a few of the highways here to actually be upgraded to what the interstates look like today, but we are too cheap and would never get enough money, certainly not with the amount of spending we have committed to other areas of government.

It will take initiative, leadership and money to make it happen. It took NB 20 years (1987-2007) to fully upgrade its 2-lane TCH (as well as NB-95 to connect with I-95 in Maine) to a fully controlled access divided 4-lane highway. The TCH at that time was horrible, narrow, unsafe and not well maintained. The feds did contribute to the highway upgrade; though IIRC, NB shouldered the majority of the cost. In some areas, the existing 2-lane highway was twinned (ie: around Moncton and through the Tantramar marsh to connect with NS-104. In other areas, the highway was built on a new alignment.

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

It will take initiative, leadership and money to make it happen. It took NB 20 years (1987-2007) to fully upgrade its 2-lane TCH (as well as NB-95 to connect with I-95 in Maine) to a fully controlled access divided 4-lane highway. The TCH at that time was horrible, narrow, unsafe and not well maintained. The feds did contribute to the highway upgrade; though IIRC, NB shouldered the majority of the cost. In some areas, the existing 2-lane highway was twinned (ie: around Moncton and through the Tantramar marsh to connect with NS-104. In other areas, the highway was built on a new alignment.

I also don't think we would be looking at upgrading that many more miles than NB did. Like really, most of the twinning is done that needs to be done, although one could argue that there are a few stretches of two-lane like 6 closer to Winnipeg for instance, that could use some twinning. Most of it will be constructing service roads if needed and creating grade separations. The big challenge is the Perimeter which is being upgraded currently, and Brandon.

[bomberjet]

The will appears to be there in Manitoba to chip away. But it will take time. Starting with the perimeter, which is part of the TCH, makes sense.

We all know our highways are shit and many other places have better highways.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

The will appears to be there in Manitoba to chip away. But it will take time. Starting with the perimeter, which is part of the TCH, makes sense.

We all know our highways are shit and many other places have better highways.

I don't think Manitoba needs to aim for the moon here. At the end of the day we are talking maybe ~450 km that urgently needs to be upgraded to expressway standard (improved geometry, wider/paved shoulders, additional lanes in some spots, grade separations, lighting/barriers). The Perimeter, TCH from Ste. Anne to Kemnay, Highway 75. Build the Headingley and St. Norbert Bypasses too. 59 from the North Perimeter to PTH 44.

Beyond that all you need are spot upgrades, fix the busy highways that still have soft shoulders, maybe a few grade separations and twinning projects at certain strategic spots.

But 450 km of expressway upgrades should not be out of reach even for a province of modest means like Manitoba.

[bomberjet]

As the Province is finishing up a project at Deacons corner, in the multiple $10's of millions (I don't remember the cost, ~$30 mil?), for traffic signals. facepalm

I'd agree though. Just starting to chip away at the deficit. Thats why for something like #1 Whiteshell twinning, the new Symington overpass/Fermor project. These should all be limited access freeway. And in these 2 cases, might be the cheapest options.

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by esquire

I don't think Manitoba needs to aim for the moon here. At the end of the day we are talking maybe ~450 km that urgently needs to be upgraded to expressway standard (improved geometry, wider/paved shoulders, additional lanes in some spots, grade separations, lighting/barriers). The Perimeter, TCH from Ste. Anne to Kemnay, Highway 75. Build the Headingley and St. Norbert Bypasses too. 59 from the North Perimeter to PTH 44.

Beyond that all you need are spot upgrades, fix the busy highways that still have soft shoulders, maybe a few grade separations and twinning projects at certain strategic spots.

But 450 km of expressway upgrades should not be out of reach even for a province of modest means like Manitoba.

I have heard through a contact of mine in government that there have been plans - perhaps that never made it to public release - to upgrade and build diamond interchanges along 75 (notably at Ste Agathe) but there was a significant amount of pushback behind the scenes that resulted in the plan being abandoned. Supposedly there are talks about a Morris bypass too, but nothing more than chatter for now.

Agree on all these upgrades you suggest. I would add probably twinning 59 down to St Pierre which is on the horizon is also needed.

Bypasses at headingly and St Norbert and elimination of the lights at deacon's I would also really push for if I controlled spending. Next would be eliminating lights on the TCH and upgrading the north perimeter. As you say, we don't have to aim for the moon, but we do need to start really taking some of these projects more seriously and get them done.

[Dengler Avenue]

there was a significant amount of pushback behind the scenes that resulted in the plan being abandoned. Supposedly there are talks about a Morris bypass too, but nothing more than chatter for now

Pushback by whom?

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by drew

It seems you are angling for an online argument on this.

Maybe come back to us after you have researched the various construction techniques on MB highways, TCH, Interstates etc. etc. and do a comparison. How much more (or less) does highway infrastructure in MB cost compared to it's neighbours? What are the differences that would cause (for example) I-29 and MB-75 to be so seemingly different on either side of the border? Are Manitoba's road construction standards the same, superior or inferior to it's neighbours?

Here are Alberta's highway design standards:
http://www.transportation.alberta.ca...GDG_chap-a.pdf

[drew]

^ and how does that compare to MIT standards?