Sports in Canadian culture

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Have to agree with this.

Me too, in terms of support (attendance) it could be a real gong show. Hope not.

[esquire]

When it was in Winnipeg in 1999, it was kind of the same story... to be honest I think it was driven by boomer nostalgia for the 1967 Pan Am Games, which happened at a time when the PAG were a much bigger deal internationally than they are now. There was a collective sense that we had to step up and support it for the good of the community which people certainly did by buying tickets and volunteering, but I don't recall there being a real collective mania for it (even though you couldn't turn around without walking into a PAG flag or sign or banner for the year or two leading up to the games).

Of course, when Winnipeg hosted the games it was a much more modest commitment... the whole thing cost around $150 million as compared to the $2.4 billion (!!!) that Toronto is spending. But isn't this basically a necessary exercise for Toronto to build its case to flush even more money down the toilet mount a successful Olympic bid?

[Acajack]

Funny but I was channel surfing a day or so ago and saw an ad on CBC for coverage of the Commonwealth Games in Glasgow, Scotland. And I thought... oh yeah, they have those don't they...

Oddly enough my city is hosting the Jeux de la francophonie canadienne starting today. It's like a mini-version of the Canada Games with teams made up of francophone youth from across the country. The main site for ceremonies and concerts is actually pretty close to my place.

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by Acajack

What a bunch of bloody idiots. Spending all their hard-earned money and getting all riled up for that second-rate crap when they've got the EPL on the telly and just down the road in England.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cggTbCcbcNA

The difference is as I think many EPL fans will agree is theres a huge difference between massive regional rivalries, and the big four teams in the league. Toronto isn't part of western rivalries.

The big teams are all about money all about the best of the best. While the regional rivalries are based on history and regionalism.

This is my whole point its not that Toronto wont support the CFL, it has to be based on a regional rivalries. Which is why I think expanding to the suburbs of Toronto would be a gold mine.

Not major does not mean garbage. It simply means how a league is presented is different. People love to support the underdog if its presented as such.

The marlies last time I checked do fine, but at the same time no one in their mine would suggest it is on an equal footing with the nhl.

Moving the Argos to York U, putting one or two teams in etobicoke, Mississauga, markham, would make the league relevant as a regional sport.

[GlassCity]

I don't see how diluting the fanbase would help. If somebody living in Richmond Hill doesn't watch the Argonauts now, I think it's doubtful that he would watch if Richmond Hill got its own team. Mark Cohon has even said that if the Tiger-Cats folded, he wouldn't try to put another team in Hamilton, because he believes it should be part of the Toronto market.

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't get your point, or at least what it has to do with what I wrote.

Gerrard and you seem to be on the same side but one of you says the NFL is so big and great one can't ignore it, and the other says Torontonians are indifferent to it, save for the betting pools.

So what's it gonna be guys?

Were not on the same side, with the exception we've lived in Toronto and
likely had a decide personally whether to goto an argos game or a BJs game.

But I don't think NFL is popular enough currently for an expansion team. Football isn't popular in Toronto no more than cricket.

However if a major cricket team was dropped onto Toronto it would gather fans just as much as the NFL. Money does matter in pro sports.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Stryker

However if a major cricket team was dropped onto Toronto it would gather fans just as much as the NFL. Money does matter in pro sports.

Doubt it. I know lots of sports-minded people and few of them could explain the rules of cricket, let alone have any great interest in the game.

I'm sure many people from cultures where cricket is popular (Caribbean, Indian subcontinent, Brits and Aussies) would turn up, but it would basically be a niche following. It could certainly be profitable, but I would not see it having any mass appeal.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Stryker

The difference is as I think many EPL fans will agree is theres a huge difference between massive regional rivalries, and the big four teams in the league. Toronto isn't part of western rivalries.

The big teams are all about money all about the best of the best. While the regional rivalries are based on history and regionalism.

This is my whole point its not that Toronto wont support the CFL, it has to be based on a regional rivalries. Which is why I think expanding to the suburbs of Toronto would be a gold mine.

.

It's actually not that bad an idea. But the CFL should have thought of this decades ago, long before it got into trouble starting in the 1980s. I'd say the ship on this has sailed and doing it today would dangerously dilute the fan base.

I am a lifelong CFL fan, an I remember the first time I realized something was not right with the CFL is when I went to Melbourne, Australia for the first ime. I noticed the passion for Aussie Rules there, and especially the fact the city and metro had 8-10 pro clubs, each of which drew 15,000-30,000 fans per game.

And when two big city rivals played, you'd get 60,000 fans or more because both fan bases would attend as they were all in the city anyway.

Kind of like what happens on Labour Day in Hamilton with Argo fans who travel to the away game, but that's only once a year.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

Doubt it. I know lots of sports-minded people and few of them could explain the rules of cricket, let alone have any great interest in the game.

I'm sure many people from cultures where cricket is popular (Caribbean, Indian subcontinent, Brits and Aussies) would turn up, but it would basically be a niche following. It could certainly be profitable, but I would not see it having any mass appeal.

Well... I understand the rules of:

hockey
baseball
Canadian football
American football
soccer
basketball
rugby
Aussie rules

But I know nothing about cricket really.

[Trevor3]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It's actually not that bad an idea. But the CFL should have thought of this decades ago, long before it got into trouble starting in the 1980s. I'd say the ship on this has sailed and doing it today would dangerously dilute the fan base.

I am a lifelong CFL fan, an I remember the first time I realized something was not right with the CFL is when I went to Melbourne, Australia for the first ime. I noticed the passion for Aussie Rules there, and especially the fact the city and metro had 8-10 pro clubs, each of which drew 15,000-30,000 fans per game.

And when two big city rivals played, you'd get 60,000 fans or more because both fan bases would attend as they were all in the city anyway.

Kind of like what happens on Labour Day in Hamilton with Argo fans who travel to the away game, but that's only once a year.

It's really too bad that North America hasn't embraced the idea of intra-city rivalries in sports. There are a few cities with multiple teams in the same sport but it's not really the same. Baseball is fragmented such that cities with 2 teams have them in opposing leagues so they hardly play each other, almost never in meaningful games. Football is much the same with New York being in the AFC and NFC, the only instances where it really occurs are with the Nets/Knicks in the NBA and Islanders/Rangers in the NHL, where neither sport is #1 in the city.

It would be incredible if the Montreal Maroons had survived, or the New York Americans since a rivalry could have percolated with the Rangers from the 20s onward instead of the 70s. Imagine the atmosphere for a Maroons vs Canadiens game, or NY Giants vs Brooklyn Dodgers in baseball. If there had been 2 Toronto teams in football the competition between them would have generated a ton of interest in the league. But I agree that to do it now would probably dilute the fan base. But you never know, maybe it would be worth a shot since what they have isn't really doing much.

[FrankieFlowerpot]

Originally Posted by Acajack

But I know nothing about cricket really.

Cricket isn't that hard to understand after you watch a game or two. Limited overs cricket would be best for beginners to pick up the rules

[JHikka]

Cricket is a great and noble sport and great to follow if you like numbers and stats. Speaking of, Canada's national Cricket team gets absolutely no national coverage whatsoever despite qualifying for World Cups in the past. It's one sport where we're actually far-and-away better than the US.

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by Trevor3

It's really too bad that North America hasn't embraced the idea of intra-city rivalries in sports. There are a few cities with multiple teams in the same sport but it's not really the same. Baseball is fragmented such that cities with 2 teams have them in opposing leagues so they hardly play each other, almost never in meaningful games. Football is much the same with New York being in the AFC and NFC, the only instances where it really occurs are with the Nets/Knicks in the NBA and Islanders/Rangers in the NHL, where neither sport is #1 in the city.

It would be incredible if the Montreal Maroons had survived, or the New York Americans since a rivalry could have percolated with the Rangers from the 20s onward instead of the 70s. Imagine the atmosphere for a Maroons vs Canadiens game, or NY Giants vs Brooklyn Dodgers in baseball. If there had been 2 Toronto teams in football the competition between them would have generated a ton of interest in the league. But I agree that to do it now would probably dilute the fan base. But you never know, maybe it would be worth a shot since what they have isn't really doing much.

X2 The biggest think killing canadian sports, isnt the admiration of all things america, its the way in which territorial rights have kept the number of teams at half the level it should be, and at the same time kept the financial gaps even wider.

Toronto had 4 nhl teams( something that easily could be done) it be a no brainer that canada would have its own division in the nhl.

The enemy of toronto and canadian sports in general are corporations like MLSE that keep competition out, not just from other teams but entire sports as we know it.

If the CFL grows in the east itll be through breaking the monopoly of big city sports.

[Berklon]

Originally Posted by Trevor3

It's really too bad that North America hasn't embraced the idea of intra-city rivalries in sports.

The problems is over-saturation. The US for example has these leagues/sports - MLB, NBA, NFL, NHL, NCAA basketball, NCAA Football, MLS, AHL, etc... plus Nascar, Indy Car, Golf, Tennis, etc. Canadians watch plenty of that as well, plus they have the CFL and CHL.

There's only so much time/money people can dedicate sports that they'll be more focuses on a bigger, more national scale - there's not enough room for inter-city leagues/rivalries.

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by Berklon

The problems is over-saturation. The US for example has these leagues/sports - MLB, NBA, NFL, NHL, NCAA basketball, NCAA Football, MLS, AHL, etc... plus Nascar, Indy Car, Golf, Tennis, etc. Canadians watch plenty of that as well, plus they have the CFL and CHL.

There's only so much time/money people can dedicate sports that they'll be more focuses on a bigger, more national scale - there's not enough room for inter-city leagues/rivalries.

That is without a doubt the case in the US.

However I think its undeniable that the horeshoe would have 3 nhl teams tomorrow if it were allowed by the NHL rules.

This is why I think the argonaunts if able to goto the suburbs would make a killing. They break out of the monoply of MLSE, and actually have enough game to make water cooler talk.

[FrankieFlowerpot]

Originally Posted by Stryker

This is why I think the argonaunts if able to goto the suburbs would make a killing. They break out of the monoply of MLSE, and actually have enough game to make water cooler talk.

I don't understand how MLSE having a monopoly is hurting the Argos

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by FrankieFlowerpot

I don't understand how MLSE having a monopoly is hurting the Argos

There a minor priority. if the team had no audience for a decade they wouldnt be able to care less. Its such a small portion of their revenue, it laughable.

Granted I could be wrong I dont know who owns what anymore, everything is all escrow here and there this and that.

[Berklon]

Originally Posted by Stryker

However I think its undeniable that the horeshoe would have 3 nhl teams tomorrow if it were allowed by the NHL rules.

No doubt, and they would all thrive.

This is why I think the argonaunts if able to goto the suburbs would make a killing. They break out of the monoply of MLSE, and actually have enough game to make water cooler talk.

I still don't quite get what moving them to the suburbs would do for them. It's one thing if their fan base is out there, making it easier for them to get to the games. But I don't see how just by having a team in the 'burbs would grow their fan base. If anything, it might hurt them as they'll have less of a presence overall in Toronto because they're not in the heart of the city, thus making even more people consider the Argos as "minor league". I don't think the Argos sell a lot of corporate tickets as it is - but a move to the 'burbs will probably reduce that amount as well.

[GlassCity]

I don't really like having multiple teams in the same city, as it makes choosing who to cheer for arbitrary and causes bandwagoning. I guess it's different if it's Toronto, Mississauga and Oshawa with teams, but having two teams share an arena like the Los Angeles Lakers and Clippers is just silly.

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by Berklon

No doubt, and they would all thrive.



I still don't quite get what moving them to the suburbs would do for them. It's one thing if their fan base is out there, making it easier for them to get to the games. But I don't see how just by having a team in the 'burbs would grow their fan base. If anything, it might hurt them as they'll have less of a presence overall in Toronto because they're not in the heart of the city, thus making even more people consider the Argos as "minor league". I don't think the Argos sell a lot of corporate tickets as it is - but a move to the 'burbs will probably reduce that amount as well.

Well not just suburbs Mississauga and Markham are my top pics and both prefer the idea that there independent cities.

I couldnt forsee either ignoring any sports franchise if it was on their doorstep.

Moving the argos wouldnt literally going to a suburbs either, just not some a youngsters part of toronto. There just to much going on there for the CFL to even be noticed with so few games.

Argos games would have to compete with pride, caribana, TIFF, BJS games, and 100 other things going on downtown.

And its pretty dam hard to get too with a car, near impossible on a big game day or as I like to call it the ANTI TAILGATE party.

So you end up cutting out alot of the potential fan base.

Its not just a matter of number of fans but being in their vicinity.

If you were to contrast downtown with hamiliton there polar opposites demographics wise.