Public Disorder & the Decline of Vancouver's Livability

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by rofina

When attacks turn random, that's when the panic starts.

I think many people, myself, don't pay much attention when gangbangers shoot each other at midnight in an empty parking lot. Sure, it shows up on homicide stats, but generally, meh.

A random needle stabbing? In a string of random attacks? That's the type of thing that makes people not go places.

They also released the perp in less than a day. WTF? She's clearly a hazard to those around her.

[Klazu]

I just love how those new Chinatown midrises on that very block have units renting for $5,000/month. One has to be brain-dead to want to live there not to mention paying those rents! The area is pure ghetto these days.

[Prometheus]

From Global News:

Woman stabbed with hypodermic needle in random attack in Vancouver’s Downtown Eastside

Vancouver police are investigating after a young woman was stabbed with a dirty needle outside a coffee shop. It's the latest in a string of unprovoked, random attacks in the city. As Jordan Armstrong reports, the assault is part of a larger pattern of disorder in and around the downtown core.

EDIT: Looks like someone has already posted this story.

[logan5]

These people feel like they can get away with anything. They have no fear of police or the law, and they are just plain angry at the world. Back in the old days, people in the dtes were afraid of the police. Maybe that was wrong, but it kept people in line. Need a hard line approach at this point.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by logan5

These people feel like they can get away with anything. They have no fear of police or the law, and they are just plain angry at the world. Back in the old days, people in the dtes were afraid of the police. Maybe that was wrong, but it kept people in line. Need a hard line approach at this point.

Throwback:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/stanley-park-beatings-described-in-detail-1.558310

[NewfBC]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

From Global News:




EDIT: Looks like someone has already posted this story.

When Global News was down there doing a story on this.. someone was smashing out windows in International Village at the same time they were reporting..

Ron.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rofina

When attacks turn random, that's when the panic starts.

I think many people, myself, don't pay much attention when gangbangers shoot each other at midnight in an empty parking lot. Sure, it shows up on homicide stats, but generally, meh.

A random needle stabbing? In a string of random attacks? That's the type of thing that makes people not go places.

Weird, tragic and horrifying stuff happens everywhere from time to time. Even in Portapique, Nova Scotia.

But the average person's risk assessment is based on how frequent or common this stuff is.

I (and I believe most people) would expect that a random attack such as this to be a freak occurrence. At least in a place that I would want to frequent on a regular basis.

Once it starts to become more common, and that the impression becomes generalized among the wider population, that's when people vote with their feet and begin avoiding places.

I realize that downtown in most big cities has a vibe that few other areas of the metro have, but aside from that there are plenty of other places in Greater Vancouver where one can shop, dine and go out with friends without being worried or bothered.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Weird, tragic and horrifying stuff happens everywhere from time to time. Even in Portapique, Nova Scotia.

But the average person's risk assessment is based on how frequent or common this stuff is.

I (and I believe most people) would expect that a random attack such as this to be a freak occurrence. At least in a place that I would want to frequent on a regular basis.

Once it starts to become more common, and that the impression becomes generalized among the wider population, that's when people vote with their feet and begin avoiding places.

I realize that downtown in most big cities has a vibe that few other areas of the metro have, but aside from that there are plenty of other places in Greater Vancouver where one can shop, dine and go out with friends without being worried or bothered.

It's not a big city problem: it is a Vancouver letting-it-get-out-of-hand problem. Vancouver's population is only 600,000, and the entire region is only 2.5mil: small compared to Toronto or Montreal. You should come here for a visit and see the kinds of people walking around in the downtown area, including those areas you can go shop, dine and go out with friends (eg. Granville & Davie Streets). Then, if you are brave, take a walk over to the nearby Downtown Eastside (DTES) and Chinatown. I'm sure you will avoid these places next time round.

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

They also released the perp in less than a day. WTF? She's clearly a hazard to those around her.

I've been lamenting about this for a long time. Authorities don't take criminals' threats to society seriously. There should be a way residents can sue the City, police or judicial system for their negligence.

[SpongeG]

I would say I feel more uncomfortable downtown than unsafe. It's not great to walk down a street and see people passed out often with needles at their side or in their hand, or see a few people huddling in a doorway sorting out their drugs and just doing them right there. I don't know if its because of covid but everything seems to close so early now, even Robson Street seems to get quiet at 8 pm now. There really is no draw to go downtown anymore.

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

They also released the perp in less than a day. WTF? She's clearly a hazard to those around her.

they let her go cause she promised to show up for court at some future date.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

If everything Klazu mentioned was happening to the extent he perpetuates, obviously that would be a big issue. I was saying that although I live in Metrotown across the street from the Skytrain station, take the train every day, and walk along the BC Parkway and Central Boulevard to get groceries every couple days, I have never been assaulted or harassed (aside from the sidewalk preacher, but I don't think he's homeless), never seen someone defecating on the sidewalk (or smelled the results), nor witnessed someone doing drugs. Yes, there could be isolated incidents that I wasn't privy to, and I don't closely observe the homeless to catch them in the act of injecting or snorting or whatever, but I have to think I would have noticed this disorder if it was as prevalent as Klazu claims.

I certainly see homeless people in Metrotown, but they have always been very orderly and have not been harassing passersby. If simply seeing a homeless person (and assuming they are involved in nefarious activities) upsets you, that is what I meant as an offense to your senses.

I don't think anyone on this thread would claim there are no problems in Metro Vancouver. Homelessness is prevalent, crimes occur, far too many people are dying from overdoses, and many citizens who struggle with mental health issues aren't receiving the help we need. Where we all disagree is on the extent of the issues (i.e., is DT Van dying), the solutions (work camps), and the guilty parties (blame the homeless for our problems).

I, for one, do not think the rhetoric on this thread is especially helpful. The sources are unreliable (the media chooses all the time whether or not to publish stories about crime and the police are the farthest thing from an objective source), solutions are absent, data quality is poor (unreported crimes), and the discussion consistently dehumanizes people who are facing serious personal problems.

You're not experiencing all of the above only because you live in Metrotown, which traditionally do not have subsidised housing, homeless charities and other shelters. Try to come live downtown and experience what you have been missing out. Sooner or later the craziness will move to Metrotown if what is happening downtown isn't contained. What Klazu experienced is just a glimpse of what's to come soon. With our lousy skytrain security, I've seen many idiots push their way through the skytrain fare gates, and hence moving over to Metrotown isn't a big deal for the homeless and drug-addicted population.

[Klazu]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Once it starts to become more common, and that the impression becomes generalized among the wider population, that's when people vote with their feet and begin avoiding places.

VPD has already stated there being FOUR random attacks on Vancouver soil every day. Every. Day.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Vin

It's not a big city problem: it is a Vancouver letting-it-get-out-of-hand problem. Vancouver's population is only 600,000, and the entire region is only 2.5mil: small compared to Toronto or Montreal. You should come here for a visit and see the kinds of people walking around in the downtown area, including those areas you can go shop, dine and go out with friends (eg. Granville & Davie Streets). Then, if you are brave, take a walk over to the nearby Downtown Eastside (DTES) and Chinatown. I'm sure you will avoid these places next time round.




I've been lamenting about this for a long time. Authorities don't take criminals' threats to society seriously. There should be a way residents can sue the City, police or judicial system for their negligence.

I think we are mostly on the same page.

[SeymourDrake]

LOL @ 4 random attacks per day. Call in the Military. Better yet get a real audit of the amount of drug busts made in the COV and surrounding areas.

side note
tbh the protestors are causing more chaos downtown than any random attack or drug related crime.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by SeymourDrake

LOL @ 4 random attacks per day. Call in the Military. Better yet get a real audit of the amount of drug busts made in the COV and surrounding areas.

side note
tbh the protestors are causing more chaos downtown than any random attack or drug related crime.

We'd need to know more about the nature of the daily random attacks. All sorts of things can be labelled as "attacks".

If they're similar in seriousness to the syringe attack, then that's worrisome and unacceptable I'd argue.

BTW 4 attacks a day can quickly become 8, and then 16 and then 32, etc.

[Metro-One]

For me it shows just how apathetic / willingly dismissive some people are to serious issues.

Four random attracts a day actually seems pretty bad and unacceptable to me. A single random attack like that where I currently live would likely be a major news story.

This feels no different than when gun nuts dismiss atrociously high gun crimes simply because it goes against their personal political agenda.

I always ask the same question to such people, what would be too high / troubling for you?

Also LOL at downplaying the severity drug related crime in Vancouver.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

For me it shows just how apathetic / willingly dismissive some people are to serious issues.

Four random attracts a day actually seems pretty bad and unacceptable to me. A single random attack like that where I currently live would likely be a major news story.

This feels no different than when gun nuts dismiss atrociously high gun crimes simply because it goes against their personal political agenda.

I always ask the same question to such people, what would be too high / troubling for you?

Also LOL at downplaying the severity drug related crime in Vancouver.

As I said, it really depends on the nature of most of these "daily random attacks" but I don't really think SeymourDrake cares much about their severity either way, if one looks at his "LOL - call in the army!" comment.

It's a bit worrisome how a lot of people (including many in positions of power) don't seem to realize just how quickly things can spiral out of control, and how tough it is to put the genie back in the bottle.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by Vin

You're not experiencing all of the above only because you live in Metrotown, which traditionally do not have subsidised housing, homeless charities and other shelters. Try to come live downtown and experience what you have been missing out. Sooner or later the craziness will move to Metrotown if what is happening downtown isn't contained. What Klazu experienced is just a glimpse of what's to come soon. With our lousy skytrain security, I've seen many idiots push their way through the skytrain fare gates, and hence moving over to Metrotown isn't a big deal for the homeless and drug-addicted population.

I was responding to this sentence by Klazu:

Decline of public space is also clearly visible in Burnaby.

You're missing the context of our conversation.

Originally Posted by Vin

You should come here for a visit and see the kinds of people walking around in the downtown area, including those areas you can go shop, dine and go out with friends (eg. Granville & Davie Streets). Then, if you are brave, take a walk over to the nearby Downtown Eastside (DTES) and Chinatown. I'm sure you will avoid these places next time round.

On Saturday, my wife and I took the 7 bus from Point Grey to Cordova/Carrall. We had dinner in Chinatown and then walked over to the Stadium Skytrain station and came home. We were in the heart of "these places" and we wouldn't hesitate to go again. These neighbourhoods have more people sleeping on the street and more litter, but the bigger problem is that they are deserted. There is nothing worse than a street that should be full of vibrant restaurants but instead looks like a ghost town.

IMO, the average number of "random attacks" is irrelevant. All that matters to potential customers, tenants, or businesses is that the DTES is perceived as a dangerous place, and perception always outweighs reality.

[rofina]

Originally Posted by SeymourDrake

LOL @ 4 random attacks per day. Call in the Military. Better yet get a real audit of the amount of drug busts made in the COV and surrounding areas.

side note
tbh the protestors are causing more chaos downtown than any random attack or drug related crime.

You sound like an NRA apologist when there's a mass shooting. I mean how often do those happen and what are the chances you would actually be a victim? This is all ok and acceptable. Reprecussion for all except those comitting actual crimes.

[rofina]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

I was responding to this sentence by Klazu:

You're missing the context of our conversation.



On Saturday, my wife and I took the 7 bus from Point Grey to Cordova/Carrall. We had dinner in Chinatown and then walked over to the Stadium Skytrain station and came home. We were in the heart of "these places" and we wouldn't hesitate to go again. These neighbourhoods have more people sleeping on the street and more litter, but the bigger problem is that they are deserted. There is nothing worse than a street that should be full of vibrant restaurants but instead looks like a ghost town.

IMO, the average number of "random attacks" is irrelevant. All that matters to potential customers, tenants, or businesses is that the DTES is perceived as a dangerous place, and perception always outweighs reality.

I'm not trying to attack you; but its comical how close you come to seeing the point while missing it completely.

Even one random attack is going to make the perception of DTES as "dangerous." A string of random attacks including needle and knife stabbings is far from just perception, that is actual reality in a one week span of time.

Of course its going to impact foot traffic and with that the amount of business open. This is the reality we are talking about; the creation of a feedback loop that will worsen the decline. Its the broken window theory at work.

Random attack --> more bad press --> less customers --> more closures --> more addicts/sketchiness --> more bad press --> more business closures --> repeat the loop until complete neighborhood collapse.

Good for you guys for enjoying yourselves - many people are not willing to dodge passed out bodies, urine, and feces just so they can say what a great neighborhood the DTES/Chinatown is.

Below is a general comment, not directed at yourself.

Threads like this make me wonder; what are Vancouverites willing to normalize? How far are some of you willing to go to say things are ok? And what is the red line? I hear many versions of "its ok, things are not bad."
So at what point are things actually bad? Is the expectation that there are 2-3 weekly attacks? 5-6 needle stabbings? Complete business closures?

Where would things actually have to trend in order for some of you to consider things as "bad."