Public Disorder & the Decline of Vancouver's Livability

[GenWhy?]

Originally Posted by harryc

Odd that is not the case here in Illinois - price is an issue, but not potency or quality.

Legal weed last year took over the black market and the trend looks irreversible. A lot has happend in the last year or so.

[Acajack]

Public civility and order: the easiest things for a large city to lose and the hardest things for it to get back.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

I have no doubt that vandalism or theft is a pain for any business owner/operator, but I can guarantee that all of the businesses that are remaining downtown are doing so because the benefits outweigh the costs.

If your business has quite a large high sunk cost, then you're probably not going to move for what could be a short-term decline. If DT doesn't recover quickly though, you may see some bigger changes.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

I live in Metrotown, and the homeless are nothing more than an offense to your senses. I have never been harassed or threatened, nor has my wife, and many of them are just seeking the shelter from the wind and rain that the south side of the station provides. The defecating is new to me, but there was also dog pee (I hope it was at least) in my building's elevator lobby last night so even people with homes don't clean up after themselves. Perhaps you should try empathy instead of calling every homeless person scum or trash.

if it's just an "offense to your senses" then you'll have no problem with any of us coming over and taking a dump on your balcony or lawn? Just an offense to the sense after all.

[Acajack]

Canada? Is that really you?

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Canada? Is that really you?

Are you lost?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Are you lost?

Unfortunately not.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by whatnext

if it's just an "offense to your senses" then you'll have no problem with any of us coming over and taking a dump on your balcony or lawn? Just an offense to the sense after all.

If everything Klazu mentioned was happening to the extent he perpetuates, obviously that would be a big issue. I was saying that although I live in Metrotown across the street from the Skytrain station, take the train every day, and walk along the BC Parkway and Central Boulevard to get groceries every couple days, I have never been assaulted or harassed (aside from the sidewalk preacher, but I don't think he's homeless), never seen someone defecating on the sidewalk (or smelled the results), nor witnessed someone doing drugs. Yes, there could be isolated incidents that I wasn't privy to, and I don't closely observe the homeless to catch them in the act of injecting or snorting or whatever, but I have to think I would have noticed this disorder if it was as prevalent as Klazu claims.

I certainly see homeless people in Metrotown, but they have always been very orderly and have not been harassing passersby. If simply seeing a homeless person (and assuming they are involved in nefarious activities) upsets you, that is what I meant as an offense to your senses.

I don't think anyone on this thread would claim there are no problems in Metro Vancouver. Homelessness is prevalent, crimes occur, far too many people are dying from overdoses, and many citizens who struggle with mental health issues aren't receiving the help we need. Where we all disagree is on the extent of the issues (i.e., is DT Van dying), the solutions (work camps), and the guilty parties (blame the homeless for our problems).

I, for one, do not think the rhetoric on this thread is especially helpful. The sources are unreliable (the media chooses all the time whether or not to publish stories about crime and the police are the farthest thing from an objective source), solutions are absent, data quality is poor (unreported crimes), and the discussion consistently dehumanizes people who are facing serious personal problems.

[s211]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Public civility and order: the easiest things for a large city to lose and the hardest things for it to get back.

If Guiliani hadn't COMPLETELY lost his marbles after 9/11, I'd task him to clean up Vancouver like he cleaned New York up.

At least I think he was the mayor that transformed the city.

[idunno]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

If everything Klazu mentioned was happening to the extent he perpetuates, obviously that would be a big issue. I was saying that although I live in Metrotown across the street from the Skytrain station, take the train every day, and walk along the BC Parkway and Central Boulevard to get groceries every couple days, I have never been assaulted or harassed (aside from the sidewalk preacher, but I don't think he's homeless), never seen someone defecating on the sidewalk (or smelled the results), nor witnessed someone doing drugs. Yes, there could be isolated incidents that I wasn't privy to, and I don't closely observe the homeless to catch them in the act of injecting or snorting or whatever, but I have to think I would have noticed this disorder if it was as prevalent as Klazu claims.

I certainly see homeless people in Metrotown, but they have always been very orderly and have not been harassing passersby. If simply seeing a homeless person (and assuming they are involved in nefarious activities) upsets you, that is what I meant as an offense to your senses.

I don't think anyone on this thread would claim there are no problems in Metro Vancouver. Homelessness is prevalent, crimes occur, far too many people are dying from overdoses, and many citizens who struggle with mental health issues aren't receiving the help we need. Where we all disagree is on the extent of the issues (i.e., is DT Van dying), the solutions (work camps), and the guilty parties (blame the homeless for our problems).

I, for one, do not think the rhetoric on this thread is especially helpful. The sources are unreliable (the media chooses all the time whether or not to publish stories about crime and the police are the farthest thing from an objective source), solutions are absent, data quality is poor (unreported crimes), and the discussion consistently dehumanizes people who are facing serious personal problems.

Excellent comment!

[giallo]

How severe the issues are downtown right now, I don't know. I haven't been back to Vancouver since 2019, and I'd really need to see things firsthand to give myself a proper impression.

What I do see and hear is the perception of downtown taking a negative turn. My brother, who I've always seen as Mr. Downtown, had to be pulled away from it kicking and screaming when he had his second child. Obviously, downtown is nearly impossible to live as a family of four, so he moved out to the 'burbs, but constantly goes back to meet up with friends and hang out.

A few days ago, when talking about me moving back to Vancouver, he uttered a phrase I never in a million years thought I'd here. He said "Don't move downtown. It's full of junkies, and it's getting worse by the month."

It's all antidotal, of course, but I was shocked to hear him say that. He's always been the biggest proponent of Vancouver's downtown peninsula.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by giallo

How severe the issues are downtown right now, I don't know. I haven't been back to Vancouver since 2019, and I'd really need to see things firsthand to give myself a proper impression.

What I do see and hear is the perception of downtown taking a negative turn. My brother, who I've always seen as Mr. Downtown, had to be pulled away from it kicking and screaming when he had his second child. Obviously, downtown is nearly impossible to live as a family of four, so he moved out to the 'burbs, but constantly goes back to meet up with friends and hang out.

A few days ago, when talking about me moving back to Vancouver, he uttered a phrase I never in a million years thought I'd here. He said "Don't move downtown. It's full of junkies, and it's getting worse by the month."

It's all antidotal, of course, but I was shocked to hear him say that. He's always been the biggest proponent of Vancouver's downtown peninsula.

Fun y you say that, but my brother has been saying the same. His house is in Kelowna but he works in downtown Vancouver during the week. All I have heard from him recently is how fed up he is with the junkies and homeless. As a tradesman he has now had his work van broken into numerous times and his tools stolen (likely for scrap metal) all happening downtown.

His plan by next year is to be fully living in Kelowna and out of Vancouver.

My sister and parents have also left the Lower Mainland for Nelson.

Even if things aren’t “worse” than before the junkie / homeless / vandalism / theft problem in downtown Vancouver and indeed the metro area in general is unacceptable and embarrassing. Some real action needs to be taken and it is obvious now that the current plan of action undertaken the last few decades is a failure.

I can’t imagine the culture shock I will have coming back from Japan…

[giallo]

^ I'm sure I'll be in for a bit of a culture shock coming from orderly Seoul.

I lay this all at the feet of the city and provincial government. Under the guise of compassion, they've let the community's most vulnerable rot in the street for decades, yet ticketing people for consuming alcohol in public is of the utmost importance to maintaining order.

It's so unbelievably transparent.

It's never been about people. It's always been about money. No government wants to commit to what it would cost to make a real change in these people's lives.

[ssiguy]

Obviously all cities have crime, homelessness, drug problems, and inadequate mental health supports. This is not unique to Vancouver.

What is unique to Vancouver is it's sky high real estate and rental prices. This makes these issues much more visible as many of these people have no homes or live in very precarious rental housing that is either completely substandard or temporary. In other words, due to our housing crisis these issues are more "visible" than they would be in other cities.

Added to our high cost of living is that Vancouver has a VERY high level of socio-economic stratification. Vancouver can be broken down into 2 general demographics.......those that own and those that don't. Inequality breeds social isolation and despair and that is often reflected in how people view their city and hence how they act in it.

Vancouver hasn't invented disorderly and anti-social behavior but thru successive housing policy failures it has made it far more visible and entrenched.

[Conrad Yablonski]

Originally Posted by Vin

..... Hastings Street used to be the main retail thoroughfare of Vancouver, and now there are almost no retail businesses left operating from the stretch from Abbott Street to Chinatown.....

Now I see that the intriguing Moltaqa (a Moroccan place) is pulling up sticks from the historical unit block of W Hastings and moving to Yaletown-is anyone surprised?

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by jlousa

Owner of SMAK which just closed it's 3 locations downtown this week had this to say. It wasn't the main reason for the close down, Covid was, but the "public disorder" factored in as well.

Looks like the Ladner apple doesn’t fall far from the tree if he’s seriously trying to blame lack of bike lanes for his business failure.

[mezzanine]

Originally Posted by jlousa

Owner of SMAK which just closed it's 3 locations downtown this week had this to say. It wasn't the main reason for the close down, Covid was, but the "public disorder" factored in as well.

i think there was a lot missed here, a lot more in the article. COVID effects mainly, with public disorder and ummm, a lack of temporary foreign workers contributing.


COVID reasons:

With a business model centred on quick-serve daytime eats for downtowners looking to get more nutrition out of their work-week breakfasts and lunches out, Ladner says the COVID-19 pandemic ultimately brought about the demise of Smak
...
Even with what seemed like a reprieve on paying for Smak's three retail locations, the customer base was increasingly depleted due to the office worker exodus and shift to the work-from-home model.
...
But customers are also increasingly seduced by the bargains, promos and freebies dangled before them by third-party delivery apps. The consequences for a business like Smak were multifold.
...
Compounding the issue with third-party delivery apps is the rise in popularity of the "ghost kitchen" — a restaurant without a physical location, just a prep space in a commissary or shared kitchen.
...
Another sector taking a hit: while tourists were not Smak's bread and butter, without cruise ships docking in Vancouver, the hospitality industry workers who were Smak customers are not on the job, either.

Public disorder:

Besides downtown's office or hospitality workers, Ladner says it's become more and more unappealing for locals to spend time in the downtown core.

More limits on foreign worker visas:

Smak has long relied on the foreign worker visa program, which has been curbed.

https://www.vancouverisawesome.com/food-...three-of-his-vancouver-locations-4548662

[rofina]

This is what I have been trying to articulate to a few of the hold outs around here; we have successfully cultivated a culture of lawlessness. Not hyperbole, fact.

Think of the mentality of someone who is willing to walk onto a field full of people and try to stab someone in front of dozens of witnesses. Do you think they are afraid of repercussions? Witnesses? Police?

Attempted stabbing at East Vancouver soccer field caught on camera, police investigating
https://vancouver.citynews.ca/2021/10/27/vancouver-soccer-field-stabbing/

Soccer players and spectators in Vancouver were left shocked and shaken after a man was beaten and almost stabbed in the middle of a Saturday afternoon match, with one of the referees jumping in to stop the attack.

It happened at Trillium Park in Strathcona, during a men’s Vancouver Metro Soccer League game on the west field.

Video being shared online shows a man being chased by three other people, as players shout, “Get off the pitch” and ‘What the hell?!”

After the man is shoved to the ground, he was stomped on, repeatedly punched in the head by the others, before someone attempts to stab him.

[whatnext]

This one is even worse:

Woman stabbed with needle in yet another stranger attack in Vancouver
Amir Ali
Oct 28 2021

Another stranger attack has occurred in Vancouver, this time in the Downtown Eastside.

On Wednesday evening, a 23-year-old woman was stabbed in the leg with a hypodermic needle while leaving a coffee shop near Main and East Pender streets.

Vancouver police say all evidence currently points to this incident being another random attack.

Investigators believe the female victim may have been followed before the attack took place.

Police believe she was then confronted by the suspect, who proceeded to stab the victim with a dirty needle...

https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/vancouver-woman-stabbed-needle-stranger-attack

[rofina]

Originally Posted by whatnext

This one is even worse:

Woman stabbed with needle in yet another stranger attack in Vancouver
Amir Ali
Oct 28 2021

Another stranger attack has occurred in Vancouver, this time in the Downtown Eastside.

On Wednesday evening, a 23-year-old woman was stabbed in the leg with a hypodermic needle while leaving a coffee shop near Main and East Pender streets.

Vancouver police say all evidence currently points to this incident being another random attack.

Investigators believe the female victim may have been followed before the attack took place.

Police believe she was then confronted by the suspect, who proceeded to stab the victim with a dirty needle...

https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/vancouver-woman-stabbed-needle-stranger-attack

When attacks turn random, that's when the panic starts.

I think many people, myself, don't pay much attention when gangbangers shoot each other at midnight in an empty parking lot. Sure, it shows up on homicide stats, but generally, meh.

A random needle stabbing? In a string of random attacks? That's the type of thing that makes people not go places.