TCH east of Nipigon (La route transcanadienne à l'est de Nipigon)

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Loco101

I've heard the drugs and alcohol argument for the far North reserves that aren't accessible by a permanent road. I've even heard some in Moosonee (yes it's a town but 85% Indigenous) talk about it even though the train has gone there for 80 years. But I'd say the vast majority of people in any of those places want to have a road built.

Now widening a highway through a reserve is a totally different issue. First Nations know that they can negotiate so they do it. They sometimes play hardball and aren't in a hurry because they know that it will likely mean they will get more.

Sometimes, if the government feels that they’re asking for too much, though, it just decides to bypass the FN’s too, forcing a deal. An example is AB government twinning their HWY 43. (It’s a hearsay for me though.)

What that means for twinning 17 in case of a stalled negotiation, then, is this:
In Blind River, we demolish and relocate every single property north of Causeley Street to make way for another 2 lanes, shoulders and interchanges.
(I “left out” SSM because I have talked about it in earlier posts.)
In Serpent River, we realign the freeway to the north of the FN, from west of it to Webwood.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Loco101

I've heard the drugs and alcohol argument for the far North reserves that aren't accessible by a permanent road. I've even heard some in Moosonee (yes it's a town but 85% Indigenous) talk about it even though the train has gone there for 80 years. But I'd say the vast majority of people in any of those places want to have a road built.

Now widening a highway through a reserve is a totally different issue. First Nations know that they can negotiate so they do it. They sometimes play hardball and aren't in a hurry because they know that it will likely mean they will get more.

Highway 69 is a great example of this mess. The current undivided sections run through a few FN reserves.

If the province really wanted to play hard ball, they could simply skirt their lands, an the old highway gets downloaded.

Then they get nothing but more headaches.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Highway 69 is a great example of this mess. The current undivided sections run through a few FN reserves.

If the province really wanted to play hard ball, they could simply skirt their lands, an the old highway gets downloaded.

Then they get nothing but more headaches.

It will be a lose-lose though, since MTO will have to do it at great cost. Imagine the extra amount of rock that needs blasting and/or the amount of property expropriation that needs to happen.

AB doesn’t have the kind of terrain that we have so bypassing FN can be easily done.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

It will be a lose-lose though, since MTO will have to do it at great cost. Imagine the extra amount of rock that needs blasting and/or the amount of property expropriation that needs to happen.

AB doesn’t have the kind of terrain that we have so bypassing FN can be easily done.

Expropriation? Most of the surrounding land is crown land.

The additional amount of blasting would be not be that much in comparison to the costs of paying the FN.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Highway 69 is a great example of this mess. The current undivided sections run through a few FN reserves.

If the province really wanted to play hard ball, they could simply skirt their lands, an the old highway gets downloaded.

Then they get nothing but more headaches.

The province can go around reserves but it's not often easier and less costly. With a reserve it is only dealing with the First Nation government which can (but not always) be easier than dealing with a bunch of private property owners.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Loco101

The province can go around reserves but it's not often easier and less costly. With a reserve it is only dealing with the First Nation government which can (but not always) be easier than dealing with a bunch of private property owners.

As I said before, the land surrounding the reserves along highway 69 is mainly Crown Land.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Expropriation? Most of the surrounding land is crown land.

The additional amount of blasting would be not be that much in comparison to the costs of paying the FN.

I'm having 17 near SSM in mind.

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by Loco101

The province can go around reserves but it's not often easier and less costly. With a reserve it is only dealing with the First Nation government which can (but not always) be easier than dealing with a bunch of private property owners.

Well, Garden River reserve held out for 30 years before they decided to allow the stretch from the Black Road (eventually) to Echo Bay to be built. This was in spite of the safety issues of having a transcontinental highway routed down their Main Street, with their kids riding their bikes on the shoulders alongside transport trucks. In that case, going around the reserve wasn’t feasible, however.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Andy6

Well, Garden River reserve held out for 30 years before they decided to allow the stretch from the Black Road (eventually) to Echo Bay to be built. This was in spite of the safety issues of having a transcontinental highway routed down their Main Street, with their kids riding their bikes on the shoulders alongside transport trucks. In that case, going around the reserve wasn’t feasible, however.

In hindsight, MTO should have threatened to route the 4-lane segment along 108 (starting east of Serpent River FN), across to 129, then west onto 101 and finally along 17 west of Wawa.

Alternatively, a very expensive option could also have been considered: 4-lane freeway hovering over Saint Mary's River.

[Dengler Avenue]

By the way, I just realized that there’s no reasonable alternative route to the 17 between 631 (White River) and 101 (Wawa).

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

By the way, I just realized that there’s no reasonable alternative route to the 17 between 631 (White River) and 101 (Wawa).

This is the case in much of Northern Ontario. This is why I am not a fan of simply adding 2 lanes beside it.

The MTO should leave 11 and 17 alone, and keep them as 2 lane highways. They should build new 4 lanes near them.

[Dengler Avenue]

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[Dengler Avenue]

I don't know if I've asked this before, but is it at least remotely feasible for the provincial government to negotiate a deal with the federal government to get the army (at Petawawa) to twin 17 between North Bay and Arnprior, with the latter footing most of the bill? ("Military training" they call it.)

I'm asking for a lot, am I not?

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

I don't know if I've asked this before, but is it at least remotely feasible for the provincial government to negotiate a deal with the federal government to get the army (at Petawawa) to twin 17 between North Bay and Arnprior, with the latter footing most of the bill? ("Military training" they call it.)

I'm asking for a lot, am I not?

I don't think this has been asked.

The military does not actively build roads, much less major highways. I doubt they have the skill set for this.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I don't think this has been asked.

The military does not actively build roads, much less major highways. I doubt they have the skill set for this.

Don't they need to know how to build roads and bridges under hours if not minutes, in the context of a war... I thought I could have expected more...

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Don't they need to know how to build roads and bridges under hours if not minutes, in the context of a war... I thought I could have expected more...

Those roads and bridges are designed to be used by large trucks going slow, but still moving. Not for high speed.

[Dengler Avenue]

Rip. I talked to 2 friends from Toronto about this, and they were deadly opposed to it, “Not that many people take it/drive trucks anyway, so why waste money trying to upgrade it?”
See what opposition we face to twin even the bottlenecks.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Rip. I talked to 2 friends from Toronto about this, and they were deadly opposed to it, “Not that many people take it/drive trucks anyway, so why waste money trying to upgrade it?”
See what opposition we face to twin even the bottlenecks.

Was there much doubt?

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Was there much doubt?

It just doesn’t help that the provincial capital of Ontario is not on the main TCH route, unlike every other province (except NS). Forget it. Let’s talk about under what circumstance a referendum will be triggered to split the province into 3. My proposal of the split was written in the other thread.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

It just doesn’t help that the provincial capital of Ontario is not on the main TCH route, unlike every other province (except NS). Forget it. Let’s talk about under what circumstance a referendum will be triggered to split the province into 3. My proposal of the split was written in the other thread.

I doubt the south would ever let us go. Our resources are funding their services.