TCH east of Nipigon (La route transcanadienne à l'est de Nipigon)

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by craigbear

My guess is maybe you just saw a blogger, or a participant in a comment thread, speculating about something they had no actual knowledge of.

I just checked the monthly crossing statistics, and Sault Ste. Marie only gets about one fifth to one seventh as much personal vehicle traffic as either Detroit/Windsor or Buffalo/Fort Erie does -- and when it comes to trucking, SSM only gets about 3K trucks per month to Buffalo's 84K and Detroit's 128K. Which means the business case for a second bridge just isn't there the way it is in Detroit/Windsor -- not to mention that the United States would also have to build a whole interstate spur to get from Sugar Island to I-75, including a second bridge across the shipping channel that actually separates Sugar Island from the UP mainland, and that's just not happening.

Realistically, the most you'll ever see is a twinned span of the existing bridge, with the connection to Carmen's Way realigned. And even that, you won't be seeing anytime real soon.

I disagree. There has been certainly been talk for awhile about a second crossing that would become the truck route. I visit the Sault a lot and most of my family lives there. There are many times during the day that you get stuck on the bridge because customs is and there are many transport trucks waiting as well. The customs facilities on both sides of the river are lacking for transport trucks which makes things really slow down when crossing. I don't think the second river crossing will happen for at leat 20-30 years but it will eventually happen. Crossing from Sugar Island in Michigan to Ontario won't require a high up bridge as the ships take the route through Lake Nicolet.

One recent example I can think of is in St. Stephen, New Brunswick and Calais, Maine. There used to only be a local river crossing but a 4 lane divided freeway river crossing was built that bypasses St. Stephen, crosses the St. Croix River into Maine. Now trucks and traffic don't have to drive through both border towns.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Loco101

I disagree. There has been certainly been talk for awhile about a second crossing that would become the truck route. I visit the Sault a lot and most of my family lives there. There are many times during the day that you get stuck on the bridge because customs is and there are many transport trucks waiting as well. The customs facilities on both sides of the river are lacking for transport trucks which makes things really slow down when crossing. I don't think the second river crossing will happen for at leat 20-30 years but it will eventually happen. Crossing from Sugar Island in Michigan to Ontario won't require a high up bridge as the ships take the route through Lake Nicolet.

One recent example I can think of is in St. Stephen, New Brunswick and Calais, Maine. There used to only be a local river crossing but a 4 lane divided freeway river crossing was built that bypasses St. Stephen, crosses the St. Croix River into Maine. Now trucks and traffic don't have to drive through both border towns.

Do you have any credible source for that though? Or has the idea/proposal been shelved so deeply that no one can find it?

[craigbear]

Originally Posted by Loco101

I disagree. There has been certainly been talk for awhile about a second crossing that would become the truck route. I visit the Sault a lot and most of my family lives there.

Are there any actual sources to back this up? Or is it just a thing people say but neither the Canadian nor US governments have ever actually done anything about?

Originally Posted by Loco101

Crossing from Sugar Island in Michigan to Ontario won't require a high up bridge as the ships take the route through Lake Nicolet.

Sure, except Lake Nicolet is what I was talking about: a new bridge at Trunk Road/17 from SSM ON to Sugar Island wouldn't be the end of the story in and of itself, because the route to connect to that on the US side would also have to cross from Sugar Island onto the mainland of the UP somewhere between Lake Nicolet and 3 Mile Road -- thereby requiring a second, higher bridge (because it's crossing the actual shipping channel) which would have to be paid for entirely by the United States because it's entirely within Michigan. And I just can't see them prioritizing that, since SSM is actually one of the lower volume border crossings with a mere fraction as much traffic as Ambassador or Peace or Bluewater.

Sure, the customs plaza backs up, I'm not denying that, but that's not a problem with the bridge itself (which isn't actually over capacity). The cheaper and likelier solution to that would be to expand the customs plaza to get more vehicles through it faster, and then maybe twin the existing bridge to add lane capacity if needed -- or for Canada and the United States to implement something closer to a full EU-style Schengen Area where no customs checks are required at all (but I don't really believe that will or should ever happen.)

[Dengler Avenue]

I just found this from Saults Star: http://www.saultstar.com/2012/07/26/orazietti-plans-to-reintroduce-highway-17-bill
So what has become of it? (I mean, is anyone willing to revive it?)

[Dengler Avenue]

http://www.saultstar.com/2015/04/09/move-afoot-to-lobby-for-four-lane-transcanada
"The federal government argues that legislation was repealed in the 1990s and Orazietti said he believes its because the federal government doesn't want to live up to its commitment."
How sad...

[Dengler Avenue]

http://www.saultstar.com/2011/12/09/dead-mans-curve
"The bypass refers to the MTO's plan to re-route Highway 17 around the Montreal River Hill. The bypass would have the highway move inland above the hill, avoiding the Twilight entrance completely.

The road accessing the Twilight would become a secondary highway with little or no oncoming traffic.

The Ministry of Transportation completed a planning and preliminary design study, and received environmental clearance for the future realignment plan in May 2007, said Gordan Rennie, regional issues and media adviser for the Ministry of Transportation, Northeastern Region."

[Dengler Avenue]

http://www.saultstar.com/2011/02/04/hwy-17-to-get-interchange-at-echo-bay
Then MTO shelved everything~

[Dengler Avenue]

Then this: http://www.saultthisweek.com/2011/01/19/batchewana-first-nation-sayers-or-corbiere-next-chief
I'm just looking back at things now.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Then this: http://www.saultthisweek.com/2011/01/19/batchewana-first-nation-sayers-or-corbiere-next-chief
I'm just looking back at things now.

Just imagine if a city council decided to drag it's feet with the construction of a highway?

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Just imagine if a city council decided to drag it's feet with the construction of a highway?

Or worse yet, in the case of Dryden, outright reject it, although this was a decade ago. Politics was at play, and I heard that people regretted it.

As for SSM though, I thought the city council wanted it now? Meanwhile MTO has basically made the city pay entirely out of the municipal pocket for widening the provincial highway. I wonder why...

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by craigbear

Are there any actual sources to back this up? Or is it just a thing people say but neither the Canadian nor US governments have ever actually done anything about?



Sure, except Lake Nicolet is what I was talking about: a new bridge at Trunk Road/17 from SSM ON to Sugar Island wouldn't be the end of the story in and of itself, because the route to connect to that on the US side would also have to cross from Sugar Island onto the mainland of the UP somewhere between Lake Nicolet and 3 Mile Road -- thereby requiring a second, higher bridge (because it's crossing the actual shipping channel) which would have to be paid for entirely by the United States because it's entirely within Michigan. And I just can't see them prioritizing that, since SSM is actually one of the lower volume border crossings with a mere fraction as much traffic as Ambassador or Peace or Bluewater.

Sure, the customs plaza backs up, I'm not denying that, but that's not a problem with the bridge itself (which isn't actually over capacity). The cheaper and likelier solution to that would be to expand the customs plaza to get more vehicles through it faster, and then maybe twin the existing bridge to add lane capacity if needed -- or for Canada and the United States to implement something closer to a full EU-style Schengen Area where no customs checks are required at all (but I don't really believe that will or should ever happen.)

There have definitely been discussions over the last couple of decades but it was more of a future consideration type of thing. And I don't think much has been discussed about a second crossing since the Carmen's Way partial bypass opened. Almost all of the complaints were from Canadians.

The Canadian customs plaza is currently being rebuilt so we may see improvements. But the big problem is the U.S. side. The plaza there was rebuilt around 2003 or 2004 I think and more lanes were added but there are no lanes that are solely dedicated for transport trucks. There are still backups as the U.S. side seems to take forever to process vehicles and especially transport trucks. The customs plaza is right at the end of the bridge so there isn't enough room for the road to widen into more lanes.

As for a bridge from Sugar Island to mainland Upper Peninsula Michigan, I could see the Government of Canada paying for it as it would be worth doing economically for Canada. I realize that Southern Ontario border crossings are busier but the Sault is the only International border crossing for Northeastern Ontario and having to wait on the bridge is ridiculous.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Loco101

There have definitely been discussions over the last couple of decades but it was more of a future consideration type of thing. And I don't think much has been discussed about a second crossing since the Carmen's Way partial bypass opened. Almost all of the complaints were from Canadians.

The Canadian customs plaza is currently being rebuilt so we may see improvements. But the big problem is the U.S. side. The plaza there was rebuilt around 2003 or 2004 I think and more lanes were added but there are no lanes that are solely dedicated for transport trucks. There are still backups as the U.S. side seems to take forever to process vehicles and especially transport trucks. The customs plaza is right at the end of the bridge so there isn't enough room for the road to widen into more lanes.

As for a bridge from Sugar Island to mainland Upper Peninsula Michigan, I could see the Government of Canada paying for it as it would be worth doing economically for Canada. I realize that Southern Ontario border crossings are busier but the Sault is the only International border crossing for Northeastern Ontario and having to wait on the bridge is ridiculous.

I still feel that a 2nd crossing will be an overkill though. In that case, the Canadian government should just persuade the US government to expand the custom plaza on their side such that widening the bridge will become viable.

Ps: If people are okay with massive property relocation, and if Batchewana FN consents (which is more important), and if the costs are low (which is most important), we can totally make TCH bypass SSM and link it to a freeway version of Second Line and Carmen Way. As for businesses on Second Line and Trunk Road, they will all be relocated onto Black Road, making it a major commercial hub.

Ps: It's basically impossible for TCH to bypass SSM as a 4-lane freeway unless it goes along the boundary between Batchewana and Garden River FNs and bypasses Heyden on the east, completely leaving the city out.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

I still feel that a 2nd crossing will be an overkill though. In that case, the Canadian government should just persuade the US government to expand the custom plaza on their side such that widening the bridge will become viable.

Ps: If people are okay with massive property relocation, and if Batchewana FN consents (which is more important), and if the costs are low (which is most important), we can totally make TCH bypass SSM and link it to a freeway version of Second Line and Carmen Way. As for businesses on Second Line and Trunk Road, they will all be relocated onto Black Road, making it a major commercial hub.

Ps: It's basically impossible for TCH to bypass SSM as a 4-lane freeway unless it goes along the boundary between Batchewana and Garden River FNs and bypasses Heyden on the east, completely leaving the city out.

You mean how the Bypasses in Sudbury go nowhere near the city either?

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

You mean how the Bypasses in Sudbury go nowhere near the city either?

Oh true, how I've taken for granted the fact that neither Sudbury nor Kenora Bypass is near its respective city.

[Loco101]

I'm pretty sure that a full bypass of the Sault will eventually be built. Negotiations with the First Nations will happen. Second Line and Great Northern Road have businesses and traffic that slow things down too much. But the businesses will lobby the government for awhile and do anything to delay new projects.

I can't see Carmen's Way or any part of second line becoming a freeway. It would cost too much and too much would have to be demolished.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Loco101

I'm pretty sure that a full bypass of the Sault will eventually be built. Negotiations with the First Nations will happen. Second Line and Great Northern Road have businesses and traffic that slow things down too much. But the businesses will lobby the government for awhile and do anything to delay new projects.

I can't see Carmen's Way or any part of second line becoming a freeway. It would cost too much and too much would have to be demolished.

Such is sad but necessary.

For the bypass itself, though, I have 2 ideas, both of them starting from 500 meters west of Silver Creek Golf Course:
(1) Cut across Rankin 15D, cross Old Garden River Road between 3rd and 4th Line at 90 degrees so that it will be "parallel" to Landslide Road for for a while (meanwhile intersecting 4th and 5th Line), and eventually link up with the current alignment north of 6th Line. The headache, though, is that Old Garden River Road might not be able to handle the heavy truck traffic* and that the widening of Black Road would be for nothing. (* At least it's probably heavy by Northeastern standards.)

(2) Barge up the boundary between Rankin 15D and Garden River 14, go "parallel" to and east of the current alignment and join back 1.5 km northwest of Highway 556 (in which case we also have Heyden taken care of). Meanwhile, since the current end of the 4-lane portion remains to be the only access to SSM, an interchange needs to be built there that will also take Frontenac Street and an extension of River Road into account. This is to protect businesses along Trunk Road while creating a few EDR's, in light of what happened this October.

What are your ideas though?

Ps: In both cases, an overpass needs to be built to the golf course, then a service road from there to Syrette Lake Road, and then an interchange at the intersection. Later on, every single property on the 4-lane portion will have to go away to make way for 417.

Ps: I really do hope that both reserves will say yes though; otherwise, as my thread 1 suggested, we will have to demolish or move back everything along Trunk Road (till S Market Street), meanwhile constructing a service road south of it, to make way for 417.

[F. Lionel]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Oh true, how I've taken for granted the fact that neither Sudbury nor Kenora Bypass is near its respective city.

I've taken perverse pleasure at times to know that I can drive through Kenora itself and get back out to the highway faster than some vehicles can drive the bypass, so long as I don't stop for coffee.

Also the number of OPP on that bypass watching for speeders is incredible at times. I've passed no fewer than 6 cruisers on any given summer's day in that short stretch of by-pass the few times I've chosen that route over through the city.

[Dengler Avenue]

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?p=8025535#post8025535
Check #726.
Perhaps it's only a BC thing, but man I didn't know that "negotiation with FN could be this easy".

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?p=8025535#post8025535
Check #726.
Perhaps it's only a BC thing, but man I didn't know that "negotiation with FN could be this easy".

Probably because some FN groups see this as a good thing. All I seem to hear about roads to FN reserves is that it will bring "Drugs and alcohol".

Or it could make feeding and housing the community cheaper.....

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Probably because some FN groups see this as a good thing. All I seem to hear about roads to FN reserves is that it will bring "Drugs and alcohol".

Or it could make feeding and housing the community cheaper.....

I've heard the drugs and alcohol argument for the far North reserves that aren't accessible by a permanent road. I've even heard some in Moosonee (yes it's a town but 85% Indigenous) talk about it even though the train has gone there for 80 years. But I'd say the vast majority of people in any of those places want to have a road built.

Now widening a highway through a reserve is a totally different issue. First Nations know that they can negotiate so they do it. They sometimes play hardball and aren't in a hurry because they know that it will likely mean they will get more.