PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread IX

[PHL10]

Originally Posted by Nova08

Frankly if they aren't going to extend the BSL, I really think they are fine just keeping the shuttle status quo.

Except the shuttle couldn't handle the build out capacity of 30,000 people at the Navy Yard. So at what point does the lack of high capacity rapid transit hinder its growth?

So you don't need transit because their aren't enough people working down there and we can't add businesses because the transit infrastructure to get people into the facility isn't sufficient.

[DocAwesome]

One of the main problems with the BSL to the Navy Yard, which I would really like, is that the Navy Yard itself is fairly spread out. You have a sort of central campus around where URBN is, and then a lot of workers who are not close to there. I wonder what the distribution looks like - I know there are a lot of workers in the heavier construction portions of the yard that are a good distance away. Then you have the Marriott in the yard which is closer to the Wells Fargo center than to URBN.

[Parkway]

Originally Posted by PHL10

Except the shuttle couldn't handle the build out capacity of 30,000 people at the Navy Yard. So at what point does the lack of high capacity rapid transit hinder its growth?

So you don't need transit because their aren't enough people working down there and we can't add businesses because the transit infrastructure to get people into the facility isn't sufficient.

I think the turning point is serious residential development. Apartment buildings should be built along the route of the extension if they happen and represent a large built-in rider base that isn't just 9-5 Monday-Friday.

[hammersklavier]

Technically the forum software can currently support threads of indefinite length (I know of threads with 20k+ pages on some vBulletin fora) so switching over to a new thread is mainly something of convenience. It's a lot of work putting together a new development thread OP and we're kinda busy and/or lazy tbh.

[Nova08]

Sales at luxury tower 500 Walnut continue to be brisk

https://www.bizjournals.com/philadelphia...xury-tower500-walnut-continue-to-be.html

“We far ahead of where we thought we would be,” he said. “This project is going much better and much faster than 1706 Rittenhouse. We’re really the only ones in Philadelphia doing a building of ultra luxury units. We have done a tremendous job at the top of the market.”

Scannapieco reviewed Multiple Listing Service data on residential properties in the suburbs that sold for more than $5 million in 2017 and saw that just three traded. During the same timeframe at 500 Walnut, 10 sold at that price and there’s a reservation at the 11th at that price point or higher.

[iamrobk]

Good to hear re: 500 Walnut. Per an October 2017 article it was about 75% sold (https://philly.curbed.com/2017/10/18/16489680/500-walnut-scannapieco-philadelphia-photos), so my guess is they're at around 85-90% now and just looking to sell the last 2-4 units.

[Insoluble]

Originally Posted by Macedonia is Greek

Not according to Malcolm Gladwell.

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

Interesting analysis from the book. I wounder why the 3rd or 4th grade is the cut off point? Did the author go into that?

Not really on topic, but Malcolm Gladwell's career is basically one large case study of the Dunning Kruger effect. Most of his books are just gross misinterpretations and oversimplifications of the actual research. He is very good at writing enjoyable and readable text, but most of the time betrays a sever lack of understanding about the topics he writs on. I haven't read this specific book, but I would take anything written by said author with a humongous grain of salt.

Suffice it to say, the efficacy of pre-K programs is a difficult thing to measure and it's a thorny topic for sure. In case anyone is really interested in the pre-K thing. Here is an interesting and relatively objective analysis of the situation:
http://www.danielwillingham.com/daniel-w...-blog/what-do-we-really-know-about-pre-k

[JohnIII]

The topic of the Broad Street Line going to the Navy Yard came up; as well as the justified reason for extending it and something came to mind.

Though I doubt our ideas mean much of anything I was wondering; if we justified the costs of extending the Broad Street Line; would it assist in having the extension built?

The Broad and Patterson Station is double decker station; the lower level is only used for major sporting events; however if the lower level were used to extend the Broad Street into the Navy Yard with a station at Kitty Hawk Avenue and then ran it under the Delaware River to Red Bank, New Jersey up Red Bank Avenue to Woodbury, New Jersey; it could open an area of New Jersey to mass transit that hasn't seen any direct connection to the city since the Navy Yard Ferry brought workers to the city years ago.

Extending the Broad Street Line to New Jersey does a few things; the lower level of the Broad and Patterson Station already has a depth below ground that may save costs in digging such a tunnel; it would reduce traffic from New Jersey over the Walt Whitman Bridge; it gives access to the Navy Yard; and brings riders into the city that has a proven record.

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by Nova08

Sales at luxury tower 500 Walnut continue to be brisk

https://www.bizjournals.com/philadelphia...xury-tower500-walnut-continue-to-be.html

This is good news for 500 Walnut, but these are not apples to apples comparisons. In the suburbs, you can get huge, bespoke mansions of double the size of these full floor units for considerably less than $5 million. There's not that many people that want what $5M+ buys in the suburbs even if they can afford it. The days of Downton Abbey, massive grounds, and fleets of servants are pretty much over.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by JohnIII

The topic of the Broad Street Line going to the Navy Yard came up; as well as the justified reason for extending it and something came to mind.

Though I doubt our ideas mean much of anything I was wondering; if we justified the costs of extending the Broad Street Line; would it assist in having the extension built?

The Broad and Patterson Station is double decker station; the lower level is only used for major sporting events; however if the lower level were used to extend the Broad Street into the Navy Yard with a station at Kitty Hawk Avenue and then ran it under the Delaware River to Red Bank, New Jersey up Red Bank Avenue to Woodbury, New Jersey; it could open an area of New Jersey to mass transit that hasn't seen any direct connection to the city since the Navy Yard Ferry brought workers to the city years ago.

Extending the Broad Street Line to New Jersey does a few things; the lower level of the Broad and Patterson Station already has a depth below ground that may save costs in digging such a tunnel; it would reduce traffic from New Jersey over the Walt Whitman Bridge; it gives access to the Navy Yard; and brings riders into the city that has a proven record.

This is a very good point. I've always believed that that area of Jersey needs rapid transit. It would also help offset the costs; a lot of people would use this.

[Kidphilly]

Originally Posted by JohnIII

The topic of the Broad Street Line going to the Navy Yard came up; as well as the justified reason for extending it and something came to mind.

Though I doubt our ideas mean much of anything I was wondering; if we justified the costs of extending the Broad Street Line; would it assist in having the extension built?

The Broad and Patterson Station is double decker station; the lower level is only used for major sporting events; however if the lower level were used to extend the Broad Street into the Navy Yard with a station at Kitty Hawk Avenue and then ran it under the Delaware River to Red Bank, New Jersey up Red Bank Avenue to Woodbury, New Jersey; it could open an area of New Jersey to mass transit that hasn't seen any direct connection to the city since the Navy Yard Ferry brought workers to the city years ago.

Extending the Broad Street Line to New Jersey does a few things; the lower level of the Broad and Patterson Station already has a depth below ground that may save costs in digging such a tunnel; it would reduce traffic from New Jersey over the Walt Whitman Bridge; it gives access to the Navy Yard; and brings riders into the city that has a proven record.

so are you suggesting only a line from Jersey to AT&T (both terminate there?)


a tunnel under the river would add huge costs and all in NJ is new infrastructure, I don't see SEPTA or PA funding maybe PATCO

I personally struggle with the cost vs use/value profile on extending HR

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by Kidphilly

so are you suggesting only a line from Jersey to AT&T (both terminate there?)


a tunnel under the river would add huge costs and all in NJ is new infrastructure, I don't see SEPTA or PA funding maybe PATCO

I personally struggle with the cost vs use/value profile on extending HR

I believe the route he's suggesting was part of the original 1919 subway plan. You are right in saying that it would be very expensive, but I believe that if SEPTA could prove that the ridership would be justified, they could snag a nice big grant from the federal or state government (less so state. Harrisburg seems to hate SEPTA).
Because the lower level of Pattison is deep, I wonder if this would help with the costs of tunneling below the Deleware?

[Skintreesnail]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

I believe the route he's suggesting was part of the original 1919 subway plan. You are right in saying that it would be very expensive, but I believe that if SEPTA could prove that the ridership would be justified, they could snag a nice big grant from the federal or state government (less so state. Harrisburg seems to hate SEPTA).
Because the lower level of Pattison is deep, I wonder if this would help with the costs of tunneling below the Deleware?

Wouldn't that be redundant to this:
http://www.glassborocamdenline.com/

Anyway, I'd rather see them do something like extend PATCO from 18th and Rittenhouse, down Gray's ferry and "hop" on the south philly high line @ washington ave. down to the navy yard. Since we're playing make-believe

[Kidphilly]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

I believe the route he's suggesting was part of the original 1919 subway plan. You are right in saying that it would be very expensive, but I believe that if SEPTA could prove that the ridership would be justified, they could snag a nice big grant from the federal or state government (less so state. Harrisburg seems to hate SEPTA).
Because the lower level of Pattison is deep, I wonder if this would help with the costs of tunneling below the Deleware?

best I can tell they haven't used the lower concourse since the 90s, not sure that matters

it doesn't get used for large events today


as a side note AT&T has the largest crush load capacity of any HR station in the US when upper and lower are used. I believe by design can load 40K people in 30 minutes

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by Skintreesnail

Wouldn't that be redundant to this:
http://www.glassborocamdenline.com/

Anyway, I'd rather see them do something like extend PATCO from 18th and Rittenhouse, down Gray's ferry and "hop" on the south philly high line @ washington ave. down to the navy yard. Since we're playing make-believe

Well, to address your first point, yes, but this is more realistic than that IMO simply because it uses already existing infrastructure, and connects directly to Philly. How many people do you know from Glassboro that want to go to Camden for a day?

Secondly, I think the best expansions for SEPTA would be the BSL extending up the boulevard, and the originally proposed Roxborough line that would loop around the city's four squares using the existing Arch, 10th, and Locust st subways, and then head up to the Art museum. Then it was supposed to go up the banks of the Schuylkill, hitting Manayunk and Roxborough.

[Kidphilly]

Originally Posted by Skintreesnail

Wouldn't that be redundant to this:
http://www.glassborocamdenline.com/

Anyway, I'd rather see them do something like extend PATCO from 18th and Rittenhouse, down Gray's ferry and "hop" on the south philly high line @ washington ave. down to the navy yard. Since we're playing make-believe

yes I think something using 25th street ROW (I say road level) and connecting at AT&T and into the NY is better bang for the buck


From 25th could use streets to get into UC city and to 30th (on the under side of 31st street) with something like this, likely not self driven


Could also link with DE avenue plans (again BRT steroids) also Washington could have a cross line and be better developed and this would be far more scalable and valuable

If they want the NJ side (use dedicated lanes on the Walt or Ben Franklin) to extend the use into Jersey

https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2017/11/can-we-just-call-this-a-bus/545189/

[Skintreesnail]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

Well, to address your first point, yes, but this is more realistic than that IMO simply because it uses already existing infrastructure, and connects directly to Philly. How many people do you know from Glassboro that want to go to Camden for a day?

Secondly, I think the best expansions for SEPTA would be the BSL extending up the boulevard, and the originally proposed Roxborough line that would loop around the city's four squares using the existing Arch, 10th, and Locust st subways, and then head up to the Art museum. Then it was supposed to go up the banks of the Schuylkill, hitting Manayunk and Roxborough.

I thought the tracks are already there for the Gassboro line. I think the idea is that they transfer onto PATCO into Philly (if they don't want to stay in Camden), although it would make more sense as a one-seat ride. I guess the tunnel would be more direct, but I’d be surprised if it was more cost-efficient. What's the 1919 plan?

I always thought the center city loop idea was interesting. I wonder if there's a way to use the city branch tunnel/Broad-Ridge Spur to make it more realistic.

[Skintreesnail]

Originally Posted by Kidphilly

yes I think something using 25th street ROW (I say road level) and connecting at AT&T and into the NY is better bang for the buck


From 25th could use streets to get into UC city and to 30th (on the under side of 31st street) with something like this, likely not self driven


Could also link with DE avenue plans (again BRT steroids) also Washington could have a cross line and be better developed and this would be far more scalable and valuable

If they want the NJ side (use dedicated lanes on the Walt or Ben Franklin) to extend the use into Jersey

https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2017/11/can-we-just-call-this-a-bus/545189/

I saw something about these trackless trains recently. Interesting idea, but 43 mph seems pretty slow for rapid transit. I'm sure that figure will increase though. And you don't need to pay for track/electric lines. Just the ROW (unless you're sharing the street, which seems like a bad idea) and stations.

edit: actually, I've seen a few comparisons of costs of road construction vs track that is in favor of track. I wonder what the truth is. Also, I wonder what's better in snow/rain scenarios.

[Kidphilly]

Originally Posted by Skintreesnail

I saw something about these trackless trains recently. Interesting idea, but 43 mph seems pretty slow for rapid transit. I'm sure that figure will increase though. And you don't need to pay for track/electric lines. Just the ROW (unless you're sharing the street, which seems like a bad idea) and stations.

edit: actually, I've seen a few comparisons of costs of road construction vs track that is in favor of track. I wonder what the truth is. Also, I wonder what's better in snow/rain scenarios.

I would see this a hybrid, using some dedicated row already available and some street level with better signal control

in terms of the 43 mph -potentially the motor and/or configuration

with decent headways these could be double articulated which I would think could get at least to 60 mph (only needed if say extending into NJ as dedicated row lanes on the highways. In the city itself, 43 is more than enough

also this could in theory use the city branch (maybe even the tunnel under Aikins oval) and could use the street below the 25th street viaduct, median of DE ave, 31st street lower section near 30th street (integrated as a stop with all other forms) and could have dedicated row on the railyard level under any Amtrak build out

if I really wanted to get dreamy any Wash Ave route could have a submerged link to Federal BSL (also avoids then a tied up intersection)

it could in theory even use ROW under 95 from Washington south

[JurassicPhilly]

I'd love to see a 700' + building on North Broad. It would totally redefine the skyline and bring some great symmetry to the view from the Art Museum steps.