Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction - Page 86

deasine · #**1701** Posted **Sep 17, 2009, 6:52 AM**

The thing that frustrates me even more is that he says "zweisystem predicted this before." [AHEM MR. X]. But what's worse is that he's arguing a point that isn't even valid in the first place!

mooks28 · #**1702** Posted **Sep 17, 2009, 7:23 AM**

Is zweisystem Malcolm Johnston? Or is that a dumb question haha?

Alex Mackinnon · #**1703** Posted **Sep 17, 2009, 8:24 AM**

That's one I haven't figured out yet actually.

JW Buker is the owner of Rail for the Valley. But Zweisystem is someone else.

twoNeurons · #**1704** Posted **Sep 17, 2009, 2:39 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metro-One

No I mean 100 meters, these avenues in Hiroshima have 3 lanes of through vehicle traffic each way, turning lanes, dedicated rail lanes with stations and wide sidewalks with garden elements. (there are even tree beds in the roads' mediums).

my point being is that Broadway is far to narrow to even consider having at grade rail on it for such a primary artery. (if it is only 50 feet than these avenues in Hiroshima are up to 4 times wider!

The widest Avenue in the world is 9 de Julio in Buenes Aires. It's 120m wide.

There's only one avenue in Hiroshima that is even close to 100m wide, and it's more of a linear park in the city. There's two stops on this street and then the train travels up along more conventional 30-40m streets. You can see the line here:

You're right, though, the LRT streets are still wider than Broadway, which isn't much more than 25m at its widest point, but 100m is definitely the exception, not the norm in any city that runs LRT, so may not be a good supporting fact for an argument.

Trams DO run along narrow streets, though... they end up like this:

Obviously, this isn't an arterial like Broadway is.

DKaz · #**1705** Posted **Sep 17, 2009, 4:25 PM**

Try driving from Vancouver to White Rock in 43 minutes during PM Peak. I don't think you can even get out of Vancouver in that amount of time.

Metro-One · #**1706** Posted **Sep 17, 2009, 4:42 PM**

Quote:

The widest Avenue in the world is 9 de Julio in Buenes Aires. It's 120m wide.

There's only one avenue in Hiroshima that is even close to 100m wide, and it's more of a linear park in the city. There's two stops on this street and then the train travels up along more conventional 30-40m streets. You can see the line here:

You're right, though, the LRT streets are still wider than Broadway, which isn't much more than 25m at its widest point, but 100m is definitely the exception, not the norm in any city that runs LRT, so may not be a good supporting fact for an argument.

Trams DO run along narrow streets, though... they end up like this:

Obviously, this isn't an arterial like Broadway is.

Yeah, there are some narrow streets the tram runs down, but as you said those are far from main streets, they are akin to the small residential streets running through Vancouver. Almost any main street that an LRT runs down in the industrialized world is considerably wider than Broadway. I still have no idea how they plan to place decent station platforms, 2 rail beds, sidewalks and 4 lanes of traffic down Broadway. Forget about placing street furnature or gardens/trees in that cramped mess (for driving, all I can see is a 5km long Pattullo Bridge!).

Gordon · #**1707** Posted **Sep 17, 2009, 5:19 PM**

Broadway is not condusive to at-grade LRT or even a tram with tight headways, because al the traffic lanes are needed, Whatever technology is chosen will be underground.

Unfortunately the U.B.C. Extension is likely quite a ways off , seeing the is still a significant funding shortfall from Translink's end for the Evergreen Line.

racc · #**1708** Posted **Sep 17, 2009, 5:50 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by mooks28

Is zweisystem Malcolm Johnston? Or is that a dumb question haha?

Obviously.

CLC · #**1709** Posted **Sep 17, 2009, 7:14 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Yeah, there are some narrow streets the tram runs down, but as you said those are far from main streets, they are akin to the small residential streets running through Vancouver. Almost any main street that an LRT runs down in the industrialized world is considerably wider than Broadway. I still have no idea how they plan to place decent station platforms, 2 rail beds, sidewalks and 4 lanes of traffic down Broadway. Forget about placing street furnature or gardens/trees in that cramped mess (for driving, all I can see is a 5km long Pattullo Bridge!).

Valid comparsion should be done with similar street type, that is why I mentioned Hongkong's Yuen Long main road, which is also categorized as "highway" route, similar to part of Broadway as Highway 7. About the width, Hongkong's Yuen Long main road has some narrow sections , but generally Vancouver's Broadway is narrower:

I guess there can still be 4 lanes of traffic for Broadway, if City of Vancouver allow a much reduced sidewalk width; and in places there is platform, reduced to 2-3 lanes of traffic.

LotusLand · #**1710** Posted **Sep 17, 2009, 7:19 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by DKaz

Try driving from Vancouver to White Rock in 43 minutes during PM Peak. I don't think you can even get out of Vancouver in that amount of time.

It takes me 20 minutes to get from Downtown (alberni and thurlow) to my parents house by Main and Marine. So yeah you can get out of Vancouver in peak times in about 20 to 25 minutes. That includes a little bit of construction not a whole lot. Currently Granville and Cambie are the only construction zones I have to avoid.

Metro-One · #**1711** Posted **Sep 17, 2009, 7:19 PM**

But is that THE main street for the entire area? Knowing Hong Kong there is probably an elevated freeway within a few city blocks to that area, or some other major artery (such as a subway). Broadway is essentially the only major artery in that area of Vancouver.

AlexYVR · #**1712** Posted **Sep 17, 2009, 7:20 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by CLC

I guess there can still be 4 lanes of traffic for Broadway, if City of Vancouver allow a much reduced sidewalk width; and in places there is platform, reduced to 2-3 lanes of traffic.

Narrower sidewalks would kill an already tenuous street life atmosphere along many stretches of Broadway, in particular between Cambie and Granville. It's already uninviting.

CLC · #**1713** Posted **Sep 17, 2009, 7:43 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metro-One

But is that THE main street for the entire area? Knowing Hong Kong there is probably an elevated freeway within a few city blocks to that area, or some other major artery (such as a subway). Broadway is essentially the only major artery in that area of Vancouver.

It is exactly the main street for the area over hundred of year, used to have horse carriages.
Yuen Long district is a fairly populated satelite town of Hong kong, about 4x km from Hongkong City Centre. More info at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuen_Long

There is freeway built in 1990s era that run very outside of it, and a backbone heavy rail line (aka subway) opened in 2003 , but with only 2 stations directly served this old distinct, and 2 more stations in a farther north new sub-town of it.

tybuilding · #**1714** Posted **Sep 17, 2009, 7:53 PM**

Yuen Long Light Rail, Hong Kong

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/2110736

A quick look at Google Earth and I see that this line is less than 1km to a highway.

For that matter though it is also parallel to a train station which goes into the main part of the city only 400m away.

BCPhil · #**1715** Posted **Sep 17, 2009, 8:14 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by DKaz

Try driving from Vancouver to White Rock in 43 minutes during PM Peak. I don't think you can even get out of Vancouver in that amount of time.

Maybe Vancouver to white rock during PM peak, maybe. But it's impossible White Rock to Vancouver AM peak. It took me 30 minutes just to get to Bridgeport the other day from White Rock, and I didn't have to deal with the huge line. There is no way I could get into downtown in another 13 minutes, and impossible when you include parking.

A bus is always going to be slower than driving unless your bus makes no stops between your house and destination.

And a difference of 6 minutes between C-Line + bus and just bus would average out quite a bit with repeated rides. Some days the bus would get stuck on Oak street bridge or in Traffic on Granville or downtown. The C-Line will always be pretty consistent as there is usually not much traffic between Bridgeport and White Rock. Consistency matters to me a lot.

Metro-One · #**1716** Posted **Sep 17, 2009, 8:20 PM**

Quote:

Yuen Long Light Rail, Hong Kong

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/2110736

A quick look at Google Earth and I see that this line is less than 1km to a highway.

For that matter though it is also parallel to a train station
which goes into the main part of the city only 400m away.

I can see two freeways, one going north/south and one going east/west within 1 to 1.2 km of that street! Where is the nearest freeway to Broadway? About 10 to 15 km away. Also i see there is a subway line going though the area as well, so it is completely different than broadway.

BCPhil · #**1717** Posted **Sep 17, 2009, 8:29 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by CLC

Valid comparsion should be done with similar street type, that is why I mentioned Hongkong's Yuen Long main road, which is also categorized as "highway" route, similar to part of Broadway as Highway 7. About the width, Hongkong's Yuen Long main road has some narrow sections , but generally Vancouver's Broadway is narrower:

I guess there can still be 4 lanes of traffic for Broadway, if City of Vancouver allow a much reduced sidewalk width; and in places there is platform, reduced to 2-3 lanes of traffic.

And that picture is the wide part of Broadway. Once you pass Burrard it starts to get more narrow, and once you get to Arbutus there is pretty much only 4 lanes.

On top of it, there are a lot of left turns made off Broadway at every street. An LRT tram would kill that. Even when Broadway is slow, at least it is functional, you can use it to get places.

If there was a tram it would turn Broadway into a through road only as a lot of intersections would need to be closed to maintain tram reliability.

What would happen to this city if you couldn't turn left off Broadway onto Granville, or Oak or Burrard, or any other road? There is not enough room for long left turn lanes and through lanes. It would be a single lane nightmare.

MAX works in Portland because it is mostly 100% seperated from traffic in most of the city, until it gets downtown, where it uses side streets. Same in Calgary, trains have a dedicated ROW until they hit downtown for a rather short stretch. Like a tram could work downtown because you could close Granville street for an LRT and have traffic on Howe and Seymour. But Broadway is too used and too important. There are no practical alternatives for traffic because 12th just isn't wide enough.

DKaz · #**1718** Posted **Sep 17, 2009, 8:35 PM**

They could use super narrow 2m wide trams down Broadway. lol.

CLC · #**1719** Posted **Sep 17, 2009, 8:58 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metro-One

I can see two freeways, one going north/south and one going east/west within 1 to 1.2 km of that street! Where is the nearest freeway to Broadway? About 10 to 15 km away. Also i see there is a subway line going though the area as well, so it is completely different than broadway.

The similarity is in the nature of the street itself, an already developed commercial+residential corridor that sees heavy mix of vehicle and pedestrian traffic; and Yuen Long main road is actually classified as part of highway route itself, and was used to be the only one route through that region.

Keep in mind that freeways and heavy rail subway in that region of hong kong were built LATER than the light rail , which has completely clogged up the busiest and livest street of Yuen Long town.

Vancouver cannot make the mistake as we know there will be no money for decades to build a parallel transit line to relief any "problem"

Metro-One · #**1720** Posted **Sep 17, 2009, 9:10 PM**

I see what you are saying, but what I am saying is the difference between these streets, in their current form, is that the one in Hong Kong has alterantes around it (the subway, freeway) while ours is the only one. This makes the idea of LRT on Broadway a terrible idea, because then we would be trying to stuff our most important vehicle route and the primary mass transit line into the same tight space, making both slow and terrible.