Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[SpongeG]

whenever I catch the c line at the airport, there are a lot of people who can't figure out the fare gates, same at waterfront.

I would have thought red and green would be pretty universal to understand. Attendants are always having to go and help people get through the gates. dumb people or dumb gates?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

whenever I catch the c line at the airport, there are a lot of people who can't figure out the fare gates, same at waterfront.

I would have thought red and green would be pretty universal to understand. Attendants are always having to go and help people get through the gates. dumb people or dumb gates?

I'd bet on "dumb people." You'd be surprised at how many Vancouverites still pay for bus fares with coins - get an out-of-towner who's still used to coins and paper tickets (or who always takes limos everywhere), and they'll be there until tomorrow.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

who knows, maybe the new government will implement a 0.5% PST tax. that would be the best thing they could do i think.

Actually, the best thing they could do is allocate 0.5% of the existing 7% to transit.... or hey, even 0.25%.

Adding an additional tax on a specific area is cumbersome, awkward, and will push people to buy large purchases outside of that "tax zone."

If a dedicated percentage of revenue was "ALLOCATED" to transit instead of needing to begged for each time a project comes up, it would be a stable source of revenue. Municipalities can decide what they want the tax to go to, and it would be distributed per capita.

GVRD's share would go to Translink ( obviously )... and other municipalities would be able to use the fund to improve bridges, built up transit, or pave new roads. Condition would be that any funds MUST go only towards capital expenditures, and not operating costs.

The thing is, the government is already doing this, but municipalities have to play politics to get access to general revenue.

[waves]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

whenever I catch the c line at the airport, there are a lot of people who can't figure out the fare gates, same at waterfront. I would have thought red and green would be pretty universal to understand. Attendants are always having to go and help people get through the gates. dumb people or dumb gates?

I frequently pass through waterfront and help people out all the time. I find it's not the red or green that confuses most people having trouble, rather, it's the fact that the light indicating the gate is OK to pass through is on the right hand side. My guess is that they are still unaccustomed to the right hand nature of things here versus say India, Australia or the UK where you drive on the left.

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by waves

I frequently pass through waterfront and help people out all the time. I find it's not the red or green that confuses most people having trouble, rather, it's the fact that the light indicating the gate is OK to pass through is on the right hand side. My guess is that they are still unaccustomed to the right hand nature of things here versus say India, Australia or the UK where you drive on the left.

This just addresses two of your examples, but the faregates on the London Underground and Sydney's rail system all require you to tap on the right, just the same as Vancouver's.

[tlo]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

whenever I catch the c line at the airport, there are a lot of people who can't figure out the fare gates, same at waterfront.

I would have thought red and green would be pretty universal to understand. Attendants are always having to go and help people get through the gates. dumb people or dumb gates?

I'd put it as dumb gates and uneducated people, although I'm willing to be corrected on the latter.

There are two changes I would make to the gates based on my experience of learning how they operate.

Redesign the reader post to have room for the LCD panel to be placed above the NFC reader, in the same plane as the reader currently is, so that people, particularly the elderly, don't need to move their head or eyes as far, or refocus their vision, from the place they tap their card to the place they read the status.

Change the gate styling or decoration to somehow make it clear at a glance to those who don't know that one must tap on the right-side reader; not with words but with some visual direction. I've witnessed a situation where two people tapped on the left and one of them got through, with the obvious confused result.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by tlo

I'd put it as dumb gates and uneducated people, although I'm willing to be corrected on the latter.

There are two changes I would make to the gates based on my experience of learning how they operate.

Redesign the reader post to have room for the LCD panel to be placed above the NFC reader, in the same plane as the reader currently is, so that people, particularly the elderly, don't need to move their head or eyes as far, or refocus their vision, from the place they tap their card to the place they read the status.

Change the gate styling or decoration to somehow make it clear at a glance to those who don't know that one must tap on the right-side reader; not with words but with some visual direction. I've witnessed a situation where two people tapped on the left and one of them got through, with the obvious confused result.

And they should have the proceed screen different for all taps. Maybe two screens that alternate between each other because you can tap in right behind someone and go through right before their gate closes, only to discover that the machine lagged and you didn't tap on and got screwed over for the full fare.

Having the screen display how much you have on the card would be enough.

[waves]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

This just addresses two of your examples, but the faregates on the London Underground and Sydney's rail system all require you to tap on the right, just the same as Vancouver's.

Oh interesting, this make me wonder if all the left hand driving countries have their tap-ins on the right. Another thing that I see people do frequently is tap the LED screen rather than the RFID sensor.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

And they should have the proceed screen different for all taps. Maybe two screens that alternate between each other because you can tap in right behind someone and go through right before their gate closes, only to discover that the machine lagged and you didn't tap on and got screwed over for the full fare.

Having the screen display how much you have on the card would be enough.

I've noticed they have two (very similar) proceed screens - most people probably wouldn't notice the difference. When you tap out it displays how much you have on your card, or when it expires if you have a month pass.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by Sheba

I've noticed they have two (very similar) proceed screens - most people probably wouldn't notice the difference. When you tap out it displays how much you have on your card, or when it expires if you have a month pass.

I noticed that one screen is a check mark and the other screen is a check mark in a circle.

[Xerx]

Originally Posted by waves

Oh interesting, this make me wonder if all the left hand driving countries have their tap-ins on the right. Another thing that I see people do frequently is tap the LED screen rather than the RFID sensor.

I think all the Network Rail stations in the UK have the tickets inserted into the right.

[ilikeredheads]

Originally Posted by waves

Oh interesting, this make me wonder if all the left hand driving countries have their tap-ins on the right. Another thing that I see people do frequently is tap the LED screen rather than the RFID sensor.

the scanner is almost always on the right side because most people are right handed. It has nothing to do with driving on the left side of the road.

[dpogue]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

I noticed that one screen is a check mark and the other screen is a check mark in a circle.

The circle indicates that the pass on the card is dependent on some form of ID (this is the case for passes like the U-Pass, which require a valid student ID)

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by dpogue

The circle indicates that the pass on the card is dependent on some form of ID (this is the case for passes like the U-Pass, which require a valid student ID)

Yeah would be nice is they had both screen apply to both forms of compass card, just have them alternate between taps like screen 1, screen 2, repeat for every subsequent tap.

The fucking machines lag sometimes and you cannot tell if you tapped in or not.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by ilikeredheads

the scanner is almost always on the right side because most people are right handed. It has nothing to do with driving on the left side of the road.

Yep. Remember, cars designed to drive on the left are all right-hand drive. You open your door, window, turn on your indicator ( usually ), reach for the drive-thru window all with your dominant right hand (except southpaws).

Left-hand drive cars here... you shift, adjust your radio, buckle your seatbelt, drink from your cupholder... all with your dominant hand.

About the card-readers here... they're annoyingly ambiguous as to which screen is for which reader.

With a 0.5 second glance... QUICK which reader do you use?


You shouldn't have to THINK to tap into the system.

Everything about that pillar below the reader should be pointing left to indicate that the card reader is for the gate to the left. You could accomplish this in many ways, a bunch of arrows, just using alternating colors, to link each gate to the reader. BLUE below the reader, and blue all over the gate-doors. Followed by Orange on the reader and Orange all over the gate doors.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Yep. Remember, cars designed to drive on the left are all right-hand drive. You open your door, window, turn on your indicator ( usually ), reach for the drive-thru window all with your dominant right hand (except southpaws).

Left-hand drive cars here... you shift, adjust your radio, buckle your seatbelt, drink from your cupholder... all with your dominant hand.

About the card-readers here... they're annoyingly ambiguous as to which screen is for which reader.

With a 0.5 second glance... QUICK which reader do you use?


You shouldn't have to THINK to tap into the system.

Everything about that pillar below the reader should be pointing left to indicate that the card reader is for the gate to the left. You could accomplish this in many ways, a bunch of arrows, just using alternating colors, to link each gate to the reader. BLUE below the reader, and blue all over the gate-doors. Followed by Orange on the reader and Orange all over the gate doors.

I think they should put an arrow sticker above the reader too. Or not. I honestly find it kinda funny that people tap on the screen.

[tlo]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

I honestly find it kinda funny that people tap on the screen.

My guess is that people are trained by the credit card NFC payment terminals where one taps the card on the display; that, and the general expectations created by touch-screen tech in their cell phones. Which all just suggests how old-tech the fare gates are.

At YVR last year I saw someone try to swipe a Compass Ticket through what looks like a slot on the NFC reader or LCD panel assembly (I've forgotten which it was). This suggests that visual aids need to be really, really, well-designed but also that there will always be people who need some hand-holding. Minimization of the latter is the obvious goal.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by tlo

My guess is that people are trained by the credit card NFC payment terminals where one taps the card on the display; that, and the general expectations created by touch-screen tech in their cell phones. Which all just suggests how old-tech the fare gates are.

At YVR last year I saw someone try to swipe a Compass Ticket through what looks like a slot on the NFC reader or LCD panel assembly (I've forgotten which it was). This suggests that visual aids need to be really, really, well-designed but also that there will always be people who need some hand-holding. Minimization of the latter is the obvious goal.

Yeah I think a good solution would be having an attendant at the fare gates.

[Geof]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

You shouldn't have to THINK to tap into the system. Everything about that pillar below the reader should be pointing left to indicate that the card reader is for the gate to the left.

I agree. The design is stunningly bad. It's incompetent to the point where I wonder whether it was even tested before being put into production. It almost looks as though they took a design for a gateless system and slapped on gates without any further thought.

Not only should all the visual indications point to the left, as you suggest: the panel itself should be physically angled so that is awkward to tap from the wrong side. This isn't rocket science; I've seen that done elsewhere.

The existing design could only happen as a result of a three-fold failure to a) learn from existing practice, b) think it through, and c) test with real-world users. I put most of the blame on Cubic, who are supposed to be world-class experts on this stuff: but also Translink, who really should have caught it. It's inexcusable.

[ilikeredheads]

example of a easy to use faregate (one of the models used by MTR)

why is it good?
- you have a large easy to read arrow or X which users can see from afar.
- the LCD screen that displays your remaining value and other relevant info is right above the scanner, so users do not have to move their line of sight when tapping.

now let's look at our own:
- our gates display the arrow or X as well, but it's small and hard to read. White symbol on light background do NOT mix!!
- the scanner is not close to the screen.

now a easy way to fix the legibility of the gates is to have something like this:

Large green arrow or red X on a black blackground. It's big enough so that people can see it as they are approaching the gates.