Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[Waders]

TransLink speeds up order for new SkyTrain cars

The Expo and Millenium SkyTrain lines could get 28 new cars within the next two years.
...
These cars will be on top of the 28 cars already slated to come by 2019.
...
In exchange, some projects, including upgrades to Burrard Station, will be moved out of phase one.

So we will get a total of 56 new skytrain cars by 2019.

[Mac Write]

Would the third set of 28 be replacements or adding capacity? And how would they be devided up between Expo and Millennium lines?

Current Deployment
Expo Line
•25 6-car Mark I's
•20 4-car Mark II's/2.5's
•7 4-car Mark III's
•52 total
next 28 cards will bring that to 57 trains which I am told is the bare min needed for rush hour, and that doesn't allow for spares

•Millenium Line
•14 Mark 2/2.5's
•18 Mark 2/2.5's upon next 28 Mark III over arriving for Expo line

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Mac Write

Would the third set of 28 be replacements or adding capacity?

They're going to be added capacity. All of the original batch of 114 Mark I cars are being refitted so that they can stay in service for another 15 years.

[Waders]

According to the Update to Phase One Plan, some Mark I cars will be retired between 2022 and 2024.

UPDATE TO THE PHASE ONE PLAN
(July 2017)
The initial 2017 Investment Plan, which was approved in November 2016, includes 28 new Mark III SkyTrain cars, which will be delivered in 2018. However, with ridership growing faster than anticipated, we need even more SkyTrain cars to keep up with demand—otherwise customers will experience more pass-ups and overcrowding in peak periods.
In the initial Phase One Investment Plan, we’ve also allocated base capital funds to purchase 72 additional Mark III SkyTrain cars to replace some of our aging Mark I fleet from 2022 to 2024. Given the increasing demand on the system this updated 2017 Investment Plan reflects acceleration of the acquisition of 28 of these 72 vehicles, which would mean they would be delivered in 2019 and could immediately be used to increase service capacity.
This action expands the SkyTrain fleet 2-3 years earlier than initially planned, and will increase peak capacity and relieve overcrowding with existing funding sources.
The upcoming Phase Two Investment Plan will contain additional SkyTrain vehicles to support Phase Two service expansion. This will ensure the aging Mark I fleet can be retired on schedule.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by Waders

According to the Update to Phase One Plan, some Mark I cars will be retired between 2022 and 2024.

are they going to buy 5 car MKIII trains? those would fit on the current platforms with all doors on the platform.

[dpogue]

An additional 72 Mark III cars would result in 18 additional 4-car trains.

The 114 refurbished Mark I cars make up 19 6-car trains.
The remaining (unrefurbished) 36 Mark I cars make up 6 6-car trains.

28 expedited Mark III cars would result in 7 additional 4-car trains, which would replace the 36 unrefurbished Mark I cars. But the wording makes it sound like they won't be using the expedited delivery trains for replacement, but rather for fleet expansion.

[urbancanadian]

^I didn't realize that 36 Mk I cars weren't being refurbished. Do you know which ones? And why?

[Mac Write]

Originally Posted by urbancanadian

^I didn't realize that 36 Mk I cars weren't being refurbished. Do you know which ones? And why?

They are the ones bought for Scott Road exertion in 1990 and King George extension in 1994.

As for replacing Mark I cars. will they be doing a 1-1 ratio? IMO that is the only way to go as 38 4-car Mark III trains (152 cars as 150 would make for a 2 car Mark III) to replace 150 25-6 car Mark I's would provide 13 extra trains if they do a 1 Mark I car for 1 Mark III car.

With the Millenium line split, how many trains are "needed" during rush hour on the Expo line? It sure would be sweet to see all Mark III trains on the Expo line and all Mark II trains on the Millenium line (pre UBC extension).

By end 2019 we will have 21 Mark III trains on the Expo line and 20 Mark II trains. Drool

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

11,000 or so out of the Canada Line's 130,000+ daily boardings means that the vast majority of people aren't coming from the SoF buses - they're coming from other places if not along the line itself. The SoF buses ridership is a drop in the bucket.

Don't forget that Bridgeport is a major park & ride station, as well as a common drop off point for local office shuttles from nearby business parks. That probably cuts 1000+ off that number.

[WarrenC12]

The article references increasing peak capacity increasing. Is Skytrain not already running Expo trains as frequently as possible during the rush? Or is this reference to the fact that Mark3 trainsets have higher capacity?

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

The article references increasing peak capacity increasing. Is Skytrain not already running Expo trains as frequently as possible during the rush? Or is this reference to the fact that Mark3 trainsets have higher capacity?

It's probably a reference to the train capacity. The Mk3 cars hold a significantly larger number of people on them.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

It's probably a reference to the train capacity. The Mk3 cars hold a significantly larger number of people on them.

Sure but what's the actual capacity of a 6-car Mk1 vs. 4-car Mk3?

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Sure but what's the actual capacity of a 6-car Mk1 vs. 4-car Mk3?

According to wikipedia, 532 for 4-Mk3s, 480 for 6-Mk1s. 11% capacity increase.

Interestingly, a 3-car Canada Line train would be pretty close to a 6-car Mk1 train, at about 460 passengers.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

According to wikipedia, 532 for 6-Mk3s, 480 for 6-Mk1s. 11% capacity increase.

Interestingly, a 3-car Canada Line train would be pretty close to a 6-car Mk1 train, at about 460 passengers.

But a 4 car MK3 would be less. I didn't think a 6 car MK3 was a possibility.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

But a 4 car MK3 would be less. I didn't think a 6 car MK3 was a possibility.

Whoops. Put a typo in there. 4x Mk3 is 532 passengers..

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by nname

... and the amount of riders is even less compared to CoV. Slightly less than 1/2 of the service, but much less than 1/3 of the ridership. The gap is slowly closing though...

It's a catch-22. There are people who don't take transit because it's not very frequent, while frequency isn't being increased because more people aren't taking it.

Look at the maps - CoV has an evenly spaced grid and most of the routes are FTN, while the rest of the region doesn't have very grid-like routes (SoF 90+ percent of them are north / south to connect to the Skytrain) and almost none of them are FTN routes.

There are also plenty of open / green / ALR areas that reduce density. In the areas that have density (aka not Tsawwassen and similar areas far away from CoV) they will never have a frequent transit experience - but there are areas that really do deserve better than what they're getting.

[nname]

Originally Posted by Sheba

It's a catch-22. There are people who don't take transit because it's not very frequent, while frequency isn't being increased because more people aren't taking it.

And it's also a catch-22 that, to improve frequency without getting the ridership first, they need more funding, but people aren't willing to fund it because the existing service aren't attractive enough. Just look at the referendum result... the proposed tax will give a big boost to SoF service as it will get more than half of the collected money, but the area actually got pretty much the lowest support in referendum. Can't blame the transit authority of not putting service there...

In short, unless some magic happens, it will take a long long time before transit service in SoF to become comparable to CoV...

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by nname

And it's also a catch-22 that, to improve frequency without getting the ridership first, they need more funding, but people aren't willing to fund it because the existing service aren't attractive enough. Just look at the referendum result... the proposed tax will give a big boost to SoF service as it will get more than half of the collected money, but the area actually got pretty much the lowest support in referendum. Can't blame the transit authority of not putting service there...

In short, unless some magic happens, it will take a long long time before transit service in SoF to become comparable to CoV...

who knows, maybe the new government will implement a 0.5% PST tax. that would be the best thing they could do i think.

[GlassCity]

The discrepancy in service between Vancouver and Surrey has been discussed many times, and the same arguments hold true. Surrey has much less density, and Vancouver benefits tremendously from the rest of the metro commuting into it to get downtown and to UBC. Its FTN grid didn't happen over time. Surrey will get there in time. Mass transit will be a huge catalyst once its built, for instance.

[WarrenC12]

Saw the BYD Electric Bus again this weekend, this time on the #50 route. That's a good one for EV, lots of stop and go.

Anybody know how long the trial is on for?