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  #1681  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2008, 5:02 AM
michael_d40 michael_d40 is offline
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Originally Posted by Helladog View Post
I don't mean to be rude...but who gives a rats ass which city is bigger? When Moncton reaches 2 million in population, lets revisit this issue.
Exactly. Like it was said before he has a serious inferiority complex
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  #1682  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2008, 5:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Helladog View Post
That must be old data, cause it calls the cruise ship terminal "proposed" and was under the impression the multil-level building in the first link is going to be leveled for the Rocca condo project.
Yeah you are right, they talk about some pedestrian walkway that is going to be built in 2006, so these listings are pre 2006 census data...my bad, sorry guys.
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  #1683  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2008, 5:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Helladog View Post
I don't mean to be rude...but who gives a rats ass which city is bigger? When Moncton reaches 2 million in population, lets revisit this issue.
sorry man, I wasnt really being that serious, but obviously somebody cares if that is the first thing they mention when trying to advertise a space of land for sale.
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  #1684  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2008, 5:18 AM
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Originally Posted by stu_pendousmat2 View Post
sorry man, I wasnt really being that serious, but obviously somebody cares if that is the first thing they mention when trying to advertise a space of land for sale.
They have to put a spin on it to advertise...lets just forget it....group hug?
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  #1685  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2008, 5:22 AM
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They have to put a spin on it to advertise...lets just forget it....group hug?
haha sure! The first step to peace is a good hug!
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  #1686  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2008, 2:55 PM
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Yeah those listings are a bit outdated, because, as someone said, that building between Water and Prince William is going to be leveled for Rocca's condo development (assuming it meets with approval from those complaining about sight lines). Same goes for the Pugsley park listing, which is somewhat going to be developed this summer.

I do love that Uptown SJ is actively pursuing developers to fill vacant lots, abandoned buildings and parking areas. We need more of that sort of targeted approach to get the Uptown thriving again.
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  #1687  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2008, 4:48 PM
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NORTH OF UNION
Building: Public consultations will help shape what is being hailed as a “once-in-a-lifetime” project


Above is a conceptual drawing showing part of the proposed police headquarters. No final designs will be decided until public consultations are complete, say city staff.



John Mazerolle
Telegraph-Journal
Published Saturday January 19th, 2008
Appeared on page B1
SAINT JOHN - At certain times, Coun. Chris Titus seems incapable of uttering a sentence without being emphatic, punching his words and slicing the air with his hands. When the Crown prosecutor discusses the police-justice complex north of Union Street, it's one of those times.

"This is going to be a beautiful project," he said - emphatically, of course - as he walked the area near Union Street recently, stressing that a large portion of the proposed site of the police-justice complex is little more than surface parking.

When the detailed public consultation process is released at Monday's council meeting, the importance and benefits of the complex will no doubt be stressed often.

And Titus won't be the only one speaking passionately.

The $100-million project has elicited all kinds of strong reactions from politicians and citizens over the last two months. The planned police headquarters, provincial justice building, parking garage and public green space have caused concern because the site from Hazen Avenue to Wellington Row is home to some of Saint John's oldest and most historic buildings.

Deputy Mayor Michelle Hooton and a number of community leaders have urged caution before any buildings are destroyed.

Meanwhile, members of the police-justice steering committee including Titus, Coun. Glen Tait and Mayor Norm McFarlane have stressed the importance and benefits of the project, as has police commission member Coun. Ivan Court.

Not that each side is mutually exclusive. Hooton stresses that the conversation is really about bringing together development and heritage as successfully as possible.

And for all the controversy that has surrounded the project recently, the language used by the complex's strongest proponents is strikingly similar to that used by heritage advocates and other concerned citizens. Both sides speak of the nearly unprecedented spending of public money, the "once-in-a-lifetime opportunity" it represents, and the need to create a development that the entire city can be proud of.

Regardless of how the buildings are placed, it's been stated repeatedly that a new police headquarters, a new justice complex, and more uptown parking are all gravely needed. Here are the details:

POLICE HEADQUARTERS

A new home for the Saint John Police Force has been discussed for decades.

Several studies have said the police force's existing location in the city hall building is inadequate. It is not visible or accessible enough, is not designed to fit the needs of female officers, and leaves the force divided on multiple floors.

Public services and force morale will improve in a new station, police have said, and victims and suspects will be kept separate.

The first planned location for the building was the same block as the Saint John Arts Centre, running north-south, but the most recent plan discussed at council had the building crossing over Peel Street east-west, in the vicinity of the Shaarei Zedek synagogue.

A conceptual drawing included in the city's 2008 budget documents shows a sleek, roughly rectangular, and heavily windowed building. It appears to have two above-ground storeys.

Keeping in line with the city's arts and culture policy, one per cent of the costs - in this case, about $200,000 - will be spent buying art for the building.

PROVINCIAL JUSTICE BUILDING

Like the police headquarters, the justice building had been discussed for at least 20 years. The long-awaited announcement that the $47-million courthouse will be built was finally made last month.

The building is meant to increase security while amalgamating three often-inadequate courthouses spread throughout the uptown. It will also accommodate the eventual closures of courts in Hampton and Sussex.

The courthouse will be 11,655 square metres, with 13 courtrooms and office space for the judiciary, court services, public prosecutions, the Barristers Society, sheriff services, Public Safety, and policing.

The conceptual designs, by Murdock Boyd Architects, impressed the crowd of lawyers and politicians at the December news conference, with a design that includes columns and a staircase in front, lots of windows, and an angular design that still manages to avoid boxiness.

The interior design stresses safety - the public, the accused and the judiciary won't cross paths until they meet in the courtroom - but the three-storey lobby will be flexible enough to act as a public space for ceremonies.

While the province has committed to construction, cost-sharing deals with the city over parking, holding cells, or the underground corridor that will connect the building have not been hammered out yet.

PARKING GARAGE

Estimates about the number of parking spaces needed for the development are between 400 and 500, and a study by a Toronto firm released in March 2006 said the city needed to build four multi-million dollar parking garages in the uptown over the next 15 years - all at a potential cost of $54 million.

The original plan was to place the parking garage between Carleton Street and Sewell Street, but the latest design discussed around the council table had it flush with Union Street.

GREEN SPACE

Council has said since the beginning that they hoped this project will be a welcoming place that will attract people and businesses to the area.

As Titus said in April: "We thought it can be more than just a police building no one can get particularly excited about, a justice building no one can get particularly excited about, and a standalone parking garage no one can get particularly excited about."

With that in mind a park-planning firm was hired to develop the design for a public plaza.

Deputy city manager Pat Woods said Thursday that, before public consultations begin, the city will provide the public with a complete conceptual overview of the site, bringing together the work of Murdock & Boyd Architects (justice building), DFS architects (police station), Daniel K. Glenn Ltd. (green space), and TOSS Solutions In. (plan coordination).

He said that information should be available either next or the following week. No designs have been done yet on a parking garage, and no private developers have been approached for any complementary development, he said.

Woods said some details of the development can't be changed - for instance, for safety reasons there will be no pedway connection from the mall to the justice complex. But he said the city will be willing to discuss any suggestions with the public.

"We want your ideas, we want your feedback, whatever they may be," Woods said. "What do they see for the neighbourhood? What do they see in the long-term? And all of that information will come back before council. The most important thing for us is to get as much public input as possible."

North of Union

Friday Public consultations are starting to come into focus

Today The police-justice complex will be a “beautiful project,” proponents say

Monday A look at the historic buildings that could face the wrecking ball

Tuesday The city rolls out its plan on getting input from Saint Johners
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  #1688  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2008, 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by stu_pendousmat2 View Post
Nice listings! Moncton should take notice

I do wonder what they mean by "New Brunswicks largest urban center" because if they mean largest and most dense CBD then they are correct...however if they mean largest urban center by population (which is what I assume) they are incorrect as SJ has 91,000 urban population, Moncton has 97,000 urban population. Ill just pretend they mean largest and most dense CBD to avoid being annoyed.
Dude, you are weird.
On an another note, it seems as though the ball is really roling in SJ right now. Definitely some exciting times for the city & am looking forward to seeing some construction in the near future.
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  #1689  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2008, 2:38 AM
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I have noticed the heavy equipment moving onto the City Road site...seems like things are going ahead there for sure...and I thought he cruise ship terminal was going to be first to break ground...

It's nice to see the vacant lots being filled in...I can think of Leinster, Benltey Xing, City Line, old west-side hospital site, SJ Energy, Ellerdale, Somerset, City Road, Water Street x2, and other recently vacated lots such as the old St. Paul's, and Dobson to mention a few...and of course the Y will become a justice complex soon. Part of Centrebeam will see the old Ming's become multi-storey to match surrounding buildings.
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  #1690  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2008, 2:40 AM
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Donald Trump not only major player interested in Saint John casino
Money: Enterprise Saint John official says several big developers have shown interest

Dave MacLean
Telegraph-Journal
Published Saturday January 19th, 2008
Appeared on page B1

SAINT JOHN - The Donald is not alone in his newfound interest in Saint John.

Representatives for Trump Resorts International have visited Saint John in recent weeks, but they're not the only ones to express an interest in the Port City.

As the race to land the licence to develop and operate the province's first casino heats up and the city continues to transform itself into the region's energy hub, several developers are looking favorably at the city's projected growth.

"The casino-gaming world is a pretty small world in terms of major players in Canada and the United States, so when a jurisdiction like New Brunswick changes the rules and opens the door for them to look at, some of them take a look at those opportunities," said Steve Carson, CEO of Enterprise Saint John.

"We don't get into confirming our dealings with any of our clients that are in and out of town, but it's certainly been pretty interesting over the past number of weeks. We've had a number of significant players in the gaming industry either visiting the community or requesting information about the community. There's a great deal of interest in the growing workforce that we've been experiencing over the past 18 months and the projections look promising for the next few years. It's pretty evident that we're on the radar screen of a lot of the major players in the gaming industry.

"We have been very active in terms of working with proponents who are looking at this request for proposals (for a casino). A number of them have been in and out of the community in the past several weeks."

The waterfront and the city's east side are most often mentioned as possible sites of a casino, if the province's lotteries commission decides to award the first licence to Saint John.

"When some of these proponents are looking at Saint John, there are a couple of different models," Carson said. "There's the Exhibition Park model (that would combine a harness racing track and other components with a casino on the east side) and there's also been a great deal of interest - even before the change in provincial policy in regard to gaming - a significant amount of national and international investment interest in the waterfront and the activity that's going on in the centre of the city.

"While casinos aren't the cornerstones of economic development strategies, they can play a very important component in it and they can leverage other investments."

Ross Jefferson, general manager of the Saint John Waterfront Development Partnership, said his group has been looking at a casino as a possible catalyst for a number of years.

"Early on in our waterfront plans, many discussions revolved around a casino opportunity, even when the legislation didn't allow casinos," said Jefferson. "But we never looked at the casino as the magic bullet to the redevelopment of the waterfront.

"There are a lot of cases that demonstrate that casinos add value in many communities, but there are also cases where they are detractors. Our approach is that we'll support good, quality developments that are complementary to our goals on waterfront development."

Jefferson said the province's unveiling of its long-awaited gaming strategy last fall has sparked interest from many developers.

"Now that the legislation is changed, we are and have been talking with a number of groups about the advantages of Saint John and specifically on the waterfront," he said. "We think there are opportunities to leverage a lot more than just a casino. As this unfolds, there are many things we'd like to see," he said, noting further development of Market Square and the Trade and Convention Centre are near the top of the list.
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  #1691  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2008, 5:05 AM
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As Quoted by Helladog:

I have noticed the heavy equipment moving onto the City Road site...seems like things are going ahead there for sure...and I thought he cruise ship terminal was going to be first to break ground...

It's nice to see the vacant lots being filled in...I can think of Leinster, Benltey Xing, City Line, old west-side hospital site, SJ Energy, Ellerdale, Somerset, City Road, Water Street x2, and other recently vacated lots such as the old St. Paul's, and Dobson to mention a few...and of course the Y will become a justice complex soon. Part of Centrebeam will see the old Ming's become multi-storey to match surrounding buildings.


Yeah...the old Ming's section of Centrebeam looks fantastic...I know they're still working on it, but all the upper floors are gutted and taken down to bricks and beam, and the Street level shops have tons of windows ...looks like mostly office space....very modern looking ...
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  #1692  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2008, 7:33 AM
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Originally Posted by stu_pendousmat2 View Post
Nice listings! Moncton should take notice

I do wonder what they mean by "New Brunswicks largest urban center" because if they mean largest and most dense CBD then they are correct...however if they mean largest urban center by population (which is what I assume) they are incorrect as SJ has 91,000 urban population, Moncton has 97,000 urban population. Ill just pretend they mean largest and most dense CBD to avoid being annoyed.
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  #1693  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2008, 1:13 PM
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Once KV becomes a city we can have a fun new arguement about which neighbouring city is bigger/better. I can't wait! Dieppe v. KV, it will be fun.
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  #1694  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2008, 4:15 PM
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agreed. . .the more i think about it, the more i see the benefit of a "kv city" . . . it would make for a strong voice and intersting political dynamics ...
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  #1695  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2008, 5:19 PM
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Originally Posted by PersonPlaceorThing View Post
Once KV becomes a city we can have a fun new arguement about which neighbouring city is bigger/better. I can't wait! Dieppe v. KV, it will be fun.
I don`t think that will happen due to the fact we just can`t compare both cities (or future city).
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  #1696  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2008, 5:20 PM
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Im not trying to start anything so nobody get all upset, if you look at stats Canada Saint John population was the only one too decrease since 2001. When i say only one to decrease im talking about between them Moncton and Fredericton, Monctons increase by 6.5% and im not sure about fredericton, but when you see a negative in front of your population percentage it means things need to be changed... Building more offices or new police stations or casinos or anything doesnt make your population more... im thinking Saint John needs to do work on attracting more people to live there instead of building things ... I say the same for moncton when you see your population rising you start building to full fill the needs of your people but when you population is decreasing which is happening in Saint John you should come up with a plan to bring people to the city instead of building pointless infrastructure that isnt needed. Yes new things need to be built to replace old things but i don't see a need in Saint John for alot of the projects going up. When the people start coming then build!
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  #1697  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2008, 6:22 PM
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Im not trying to start anything so nobody get all upset, if you look at stats Canada Saint John population was the only one too decrease since 2001. When i say only one to decrease im talking about between them Moncton and Fredericton, Monctons increase by 6.5% and im not sure about fredericton, but when you see a negative in front of your population percentage it means things need to be changed... Building more offices or new police stations or casinos or anything doesnt make your population more... im thinking Saint John needs to do work on attracting more people to live there instead of building things ...


LOL...not upset at all...some good points in there, but i don't think that the road to population growth and improved development / quality of life is linear...theres a ton of variables to take into consideration...1) how accurate is the census, particularaly for SJ which has HUGE rates of poverty and illiteracy...is it conceivable that a lot of folks may not have even been counted in, thus the population is underestimated? 2) at any given time, there are a number of people working / spending $ in the city for a period of several months - a few years who do not call SJ or NB home...again, not reflective in the census 3) despite the slight neg growth, the suburbs of SJ *are* growing 4) of course, the act of building offices or new buildings does not "grow" a population, but these are good general indicators of a reasonable economy with a positive outlook to the future; the mere act of major construction is a catalyst, and not only does it provide jobs, but it also attracts attention, population ,etc even on the residential side in the past 18 months...huge changes - it's a seller's market, there's new multiunit developments going up (eg: bentley crossing, leinster st., robertson's wharf, not to mention the ones in the planning stages) that are selling like hotcakes...clearly, there is *some* interest, and my guess is that the population will slowly grow in the coming years.

i guess that new infrastructure psychologically serves to increase confidence in a given area...which usually correlates to attracting (or retaining) population.
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  #1698  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2008, 6:23 PM
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Originally Posted by brod3211 View Post
Im not trying to start anything so nobody get all upset, if you look at stats Canada Saint John population was the only one too decrease since 2001. When i say only one to decrease im talking about between them Moncton and Fredericton, Monctons increase by 6.5% and im not sure about fredericton, but when you see a negative in front of your population percentage it means things need to be changed... Building more offices or new police stations or casinos or anything doesnt make your population more... im thinking Saint John needs to do work on attracting more people to live there instead of building things ... I say the same for moncton when you see your population rising you start building to full fill the needs of your people but when you population is decreasing which is happening in Saint John you should come up with a plan to bring people to the city instead of building pointless infrastructure that isnt needed. Yes new things need to be built to replace old things but i don't see a need in Saint John for alot of the projects going up. When the people start coming then build!

If you build it they will come
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  #1699  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2008, 6:41 PM
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Originally Posted by HalifaxMtl666 View Post
I don`t think that will happen due to the fact we just can`t compare both cities (or future city).
In much the same way Moncton v. Saint John comparisons are arbitrary...
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  #1700  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2008, 6:59 PM
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Originally Posted by PersonPlaceorThing View Post
In much the same way Moncton v. Saint John comparisons are arbitrary...
I agree everyone argues well Saint John has more bigger buildings and more of a Downtown and Monctons bigger in pop. wise but all in all Saint John was the first Incorperated City in NB making it obvious that they would have a better downtown do to the fact they are been around alot longer than Moncton. Monctons Population is increasing because of the jobs coming here because Moncton is considered a younger city. Anyways point is that Saint John will get jobs and Population will increase same with Moncton.... for the ammount of putting down of one city and sticking up for the other we are citys a like in many ways. If anything the two citys should work together to make this province a go to place... I gaurentee you Edmonton and Calgary don't whine and complain about whose bigger or whose got a better downtown they do what they need to do to get population.... If Moncton and SJ would stop bickering over whose better and just go ahead with projects and work together on bringing population back to the maritimes this would be better for everyone.

The KV vs. Dieppe thing KV cant compare to dieppe on the idea that dieppe has huge uptown project in development right now plus a downtown and many other things on the go. The other thing is Dieppe has a Large number of people who speak french.
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