The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[thebasketballgeek]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

It is unacceptable to add transfers and cut frequency at the same and still not have enough buses and trained drivers. When they cut service due to covid, why is there not surplus drivers and buses available to begin ramping up service again?

Transit has been facing a labour shortage worldwide because no one wants to work transit due to a variety of factors such as safety, hours, and wages.

This is why automation of transit will be a game changer. It’s a huge reason why most Metro systems these days are going straight to autonomous trains. It also significantly lowers operating costs, makes for consistent times, and doesn’t require 30 minute breaks for conductors/drivers.

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

No matter how good Ottawa LRT is, 90% still need to use a bus. Ottawa's bus network has been deteriorating, and as long as many face a possible 30 minute outgoing transfer or double transfers, we have failed to address the needs of potential riders. I have had bad experiences over and over again since the Confed Line opened with connecting buses. Ottawa needs to invest in reliability of the buses. They now admit dropped runs because of the lack of drivers and buses.

It is unacceptable to add transfers and cut frequency at the same and still not have enough buses and trained drivers. When they cut service due to covid, why is there not surplus drivers and buses available to begin ramping up service again?

This is the biggest drawback in Ottawa. We need reliable and frequent connectivity to LRT if transit is to compete with the car. This maybe too ambitious, but I'd love to see a policy direction that aims to bring 10-minute (or better) all day bus service across the city such that the majority of the urban population is no further than a 10-15 minute walk from a frequent route. One can dream...

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Hybrid247

This is the biggest drawback in Ottawa. We need reliable and frequent connectivity to LRT if transit is to compete with the car. This maybe too ambitious, but I'd love to see a policy direction that aims to bring 10-minute (or better) all day bus service across the city such that the majority of the urban population is no further than a 10-15 minute walk from a frequent route. One can dream...

Whenever I used to mention this in the Ottawa threads years ago, I used to get pushback that Ottawa doesn't have the ridership to support it. Lol. Nonsense.

With the LRT, moving a huge chunk of pax-km to rail, a lot of buses and drivers should be freed up to expand feeder services. 15 min service all day should be the goal with sub 10 min service at peak on all routes.

After Stage 2, we should not need articulated buses and won't even need as many double deckers. OC Transpo needs to take the opportunity to put out a large multi year order for electric buses and standardize on one type to cut costs.

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

This is why automation of transit will be a game changer. It’s a huge reason why most Metro systems these days are going straight to autonomous trains. It also significantly lowers operating costs, makes for consistent times, and doesn’t require 30 minute breaks for conductors/drivers.

Ya, it certainly seems to be heading that way. Interestingly enough, the Kanata North tech hub in Ottawa is home to a large cluster of companies undertaking advanced autonomous vehicle testing and innovation, perhaps the largest of its kind in Canada. Last I heard, they were working towards the creation of an autonomous shuttle bus that would connect the tech hub with a future LRT station. I'm really hoping Ottawa can become a global leader in the AV space, and more specifically, autonomous bus transit.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I think a decade from now, we may quickly be up against land use inhibition transit expansion. Not Just Bikes covered that in a recent video.

This is changing too.

Increasingly, rail lines are being built in dense, established places people actually live and need better transit, even if it is more challenging than building a line along an existing ROW like a hydro corridor or old freight line that doesn't hit actual trip generators.

I'd actually say that most u/c or advanced planning rail lines in Canada fit that bill: Eglinton Crosstown, Ontario Line, Hamilton, Hurontario, Finch West, Broadway subway to Arbutus, Valley Line to West Ed, Calgary's Green Line, Quebec City tramway. Not sure of the status of REM est, but that's another one.

I'd also say that the land use planning around transit stations is turning a corner too. In the GTA, Infrastructure Ontario has several "Transit Oriented Communities" in the works around planned Metrolinx transit stations, and then there are many others where a major developer is financing the station (Park Lawn, Woodbine), or it's a designated growth area where a lot of intensification is already underway.

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Whenever I used to mention this in the Ottawa threads years ago, I used to get pushback that Ottawa doesn't have the ridership to support it. Lol. Nonsense.

With the LRT, moving a huge chunk of pax-km to rail, a lot of buses and drivers should be freed up to expand feeder services. 15 min service all day should be the goal with sub 10 min service at peak on all routes.

After Stage 2, we should not need articulated buses and won't even need as many double deckers. OC Transpo needs to take the opportunity to put out a large multi year order for electric buses and standardize on one type to cut costs.

I've been on SSP for quite a while (more as a lurker than a participant, admittedly), and I definitely noticed that you've long been an advocate of that initiative. Couldn't agree more with you. And I think now, more than ever, it needs to be pursued given the huge loss of transit commuters. OCT needs to transform itself to attract riders again and frequent connectivity will be central to that.

As you said, frequent service with 40-foot electric buses is the way to go. And eventually, perhaps automated buses as well. 60-footers and double deckers have had their share of struggles, especially in winter. I wouldn't be sad to see them gone.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The sheer amount and quality of transit under construction in Canada is staggering. Yeah, no city in Canada is going to be Berlin. But quite a few will see substantial expansion that allows for some actual reduction in car dependency over this decade. This level of investment is actually comparable to Europe or Asia. The big question to me is whether this pace of investment is sustainable into the 2030s, or whether we end up in a 90s style slump again.

I'm particularly intrigued by GO RER. It's the kind of project that changes the mental geography of a region. Bramalea to Union in 20 mins (from 35 mins today) with trains every 10 mins (from hourly today) is the kind of service that will completely change both the reliance on transit in the GTA and the perceived effort required to travel to most of the 905 by transit. It actually becomes possible for a good proportion of the GTA to actually ditch the car or at least reduce it to occasional use.

I think a decade from now, we may quickly be up against land use inhibition transit expansion. Not Just Bikes covered that in a recent video.

• Video Link

I said it to someone who shared this on FB - Things would change if politicians were required to use public transit. They would begin changing the master plans of the cities they are in.They would fund the transit where they represent.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

No matter how good Ottawa LRT is, 90% still need to use a bus. Ottawa's bus network has been deteriorating, and as long as many face a possible 30 minute outgoing transfer or double transfers, we have failed to address the needs of potential riders. I have had bad experiences over and over again since the Confed Line opened with connecting buses. Ottawa needs to invest in reliability of the buses. They now admit dropped runs because of the lack of drivers and buses.

It is unacceptable to add transfers and cut frequency at the same and still not have enough buses and trained drivers. When they cut service due to covid, why is there not surplus drivers and buses available to begin ramping up service again?

Some of those drivers found other work. What a lot of people are not understanding is that some people took the CERB and bettered their life with a job they wanted, not needed. So, those bus drivers are now working elsewhere.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Whenever I used to mention this in the Ottawa threads years ago, I used to get pushback that Ottawa doesn't have the ridership to support it. Lol. Nonsense.

With the LRT, moving a huge chunk of pax-km to rail, a lot of buses and drivers should be freed up to expand feeder services. 15 min service all day should be the goal with sub 10 min service at peak on all routes.

After Stage 2, we should not need articulated buses and won't even need as many double deckers. OC Transpo needs to take the opportunity to put out a large multi year order for electric buses and standardize on one type to cut costs.

I feel that won't be the case till after Stage 3, which sees even further extensions and new BRT.

[thebasketballgeek]

Originally Posted by Hybrid247

Ya, it certainly seems to be heading that way. Interestingly enough, the Kanata North tech hub in Ottawa is home to a large cluster of companies undertaking advanced autonomous vehicle testing and innovation, perhaps the largest of its kind in Canada. Last I heard, they were working towards the creation of an autonomous shuttle bus that would connect the tech hub with a future LRT station. I'm really hoping Ottawa can become a global leader in the AV space, and more specifically, autonomous bus transit.

That’s great to hear about Ottawa’s progress in autonomous vehicles. The more people working on this from all over the country the sooner Canada can be a leader in this field.

Winnipeg is also making significant progress on autonomous busses because New Flyer is headquartered here and is the largest bus manufacturer in the continent. They have already gotten to level 4 service with the Xcelsior which is just 1 level below full automation. In fact it’s already considered road ready, but can only operate at a very low speed in urban areas. Nevertheless, I can’t wait for the day when autonomous busses dominate the streets and rapid transit of Winnipeg.

[Truenorth00]

I've asked before if OC Transpo couldn't use even smaller buses and provide more frequent service. But I guess the market in North America is mostly standardized around the 40 ft bus so not much point going smaller.

With Stage 2 effectively tripling LRT coverage, most of Ottawa's population will be within 5 kms of a station. That should be a 15 min bus ride for most.

OC Transpo's fleet doesn't even need to grow to improve service. So many pax-km and deadheading kms are being removed by the O-Train that they should be able to provide decent feeder service for the entire city with their current bus fleet.

[WhipperSnapper]

Would smaller buses cost and operation be that much cheaper to provide more frequent service within the same budget?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I feel that won't be the case till after Stage 3, which sees even further extensions and new BRT.

77% of Ottawans within 5 km of LRT after Stage 2 according to the city.

https://ottawa.ca/en/planning-developmen...ge-2-light-rail-transit-project/overview

The West and Southwest are a bit of a hole still. But that's not the majority of the population. Zero reason that OC Transpo can't meet 15/10 min service standards. Just takes a few more buses in Kanata, Stittsville and Barrhaven.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

Transit has been facing a labour shortage worldwide because no one wants to work transit due to a variety of factors such as safety, hours, and wages.

This is why automation of transit will be a game changer. It’s a huge reason why most Metro systems these days are going straight to autonomous trains. It also significantly lowers operating costs, makes for consistent times, and doesn’t require 30 minute breaks for conductors/drivers.

This is not realistic. We cannot afford grade separated automatic rail so that majority of the population is within walking distance of a line. There still needs to be local neighbourhood bus service. If that local service is awful, people will drive.

Phase 1 of the Confed Line, has zero park n ride lots.

Phase 2 of the Confed Line, has two park n ride lots in the east end, and only one tiny one in the west end, that is a pay lot at least part of the day.

The Trillium Line will have three Park n Ride lots but they already are thinking of redeveloping the most central one.

Unless we address the last mile problem properly, ridership will decline, not go up.

So far, we have done a terrible job of addressing the last mile problem, which as pointed out is really 5 km for Ottawa. If I have to pay again for an e-scooter, or a bike share, not available outside of the central city, how do I get to my destination at an affordable cost?

[lrt's friend]

Ottawa needs more than feeder service. The city also needs alternative efficient cross-town routes that don't require everybody to go through downtown to get anywhere. As it stands, too many trips require two transfers or even more. Most people can deal with one transfer, but two or more transfers is a deal breaker for most people.

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

77% of Ottawans within 5 km of LRT after Stage 2 according to the city.

I would imagine that percentage is also fairly higher if you only consider the population within the urban boundary, which is quite impressive. Better bus connectivity could really go a long way in improving LRT ridership.

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

That’s great to hear about Ottawa’s progress in autonomous vehicles. The more people working on this from all over the country the sooner Canada can be a leader in this field.

Absolutely. It'd be great to see New Flyer and Nova Bus emerge as leaders in the AV space.

Here's the AV network for the Kanata North pilot project that was proposed last year:


https://www.obj.ca/article/techopia/kana...up-pushes-av-rapid-transit-pilot-project

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

This is not realistic. We cannot afford grade separated automatic rail so that majority of the population is within walking distance of a line. There still needs to be local neighbourhood bus service. If that local service is awful, people will drive.

Pretty sure what they mean by "automation of transit" is the progression of automation to cover road vehicles including local buses.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Hybrid247

I would imagine that percentage is also fairly higher if you only consider the population within the urban boundary, which is quite impressive. Better bus connectivity could really go a long way in improving LRT ridership.



Absolutely. It'd be great to see New Flyer and Nova Bus emerge as leaders in the AV space.

Here's the AV network for the Kanata North pilot project that was proposed last year:


https://www.obj.ca/article/techopia/kana...up-pushes-av-rapid-transit-pilot-project

Why is this not a two way loop instead of two separate routes that have the same start and end points?

It is a pity that instead of building Phase 2 to Eagleson, we built to Trim Road in Orleans. That was a totally political decision.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Pretty sure what they mean by "automation of transit" is the progression of automation to cover road vehicles including local buses.

We need proof of concept on one route in Kanata, before this can be put in place across the city. This is still many years away.

There had been a plan to run a BRT route from Eagleson Station to the Kanata North Business Park, a perfect opportunity to test automation in a mostly segregated route, but the plan shown that must terminate at Moodie is much more complicated.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

It is a pity that instead of building Phase 2 to Eagleson, we built to Trim Road in Orleans. That was a totally political decision.

I recall from past public consultations that Orleans has substantially higher ridership and modal share than any other suburb.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I recall from past public consultations that Orleans has substantially higher ridership and modal share than any other suburb.

Would a Place d'Orleans terminus not have been adequate to serve Orleans? The extension to Trim was political. We couldn't even justify more than one station between Place d'Orleans and Trim because of the lack of development on that stretch.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Would a Place d'Orleans terminus not have been adequate to serve Orleans? The extension to Trim was political. We couldn't even justify more than one station between Place d'Orleans and Trim because of the lack of development on that stretch.

Sure. But that extension to Trim is not why there's no extension to Kanata or Barrhaven. Saving one stop doesn't pay for much. Especially if stopping at Place d'Orléans meant a larger Park n Ride and bus terminal there.

From what I recall, Eagleson was also substantially expensive. It's why they only managed to squeeze out Moodie.