Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

St-Jean would be a very different beast then Windsor, Ontario even if the latter had maintained a much healthier French community. My point was that I have doubts about how much Francophone enclaves in Ontario border towns would have permeated into the majority Anglophone (and then subsequent South and East Asian immigrant) communities in a theoretical non-interventionalist environment, given how Anglophones in Canada consume the majority of their media and entertainment. I guess I'm more questioning how much the presence of stronger French enclaves would've halted "English inertia" in the larger population. If we're just talking about English inertia slowly diminishing those enclaves through the help of restricted schooling options then there's probably not even a debate to be had.

What's been going on for the past little while in these places that got French schools "back" after not having them for a long time, is that there is a 1-2-3 generation gap of French fluency (and to a degree, culture) in most families. Which is to say that the kids and grandkids of people who never went to school in French and lost (partly or totally) the language, are now going to school in French full time. It's an uphill battle to bring those kids back into the francophone fold.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

These and others in some of the other provinces are the areas I was talking about (not so much New Brunswick, though) as opposed to other parts of the ROC where francophones never really lived in decent numbers. We'll never know how things would have turned out had so many existing francophone institutions (schools, hospitals, etc.) in the ROC's provinces had not been taken over by governments and switched over to English.

Though the places that have good decades-old or century-old institutional networks do give us an idea of what might have been.

Cultural momentum is tied to economic momentum too, especially in the modern era. How a region performs economically influences how many newcomers displace the locals.

It's a double-edged sword. In one sense, lower economic growth means that the local population is not diluted by outsiders and aids retention of culture, but in another, it means the relative influence of an area weakens.

It also is why I'm not terribly optimistic about the status of French outside the borders of Quebec at this juncture. Northeastern Ontario and Northern New Brunswick aren't setting it on fire economically and haven't been for decades now. Initially, this acted as a buffer for retention of the language, but long-term I am not sure it continues given that natural change is probably negative for these regions now.

Hence, Quebec's enthusiasm for language protection. It is a big-state solution, but de jure enforcement beats de facto hopes.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by thewave46

Cultural momentum is tied to economic momentum too, especially in the modern era. How a region performs economically influences how many newcomers displace the locals.

It's a double-edged sword. In one sense, lower economic growth means that the local population is not diluted by outsiders and aids retention of culture, but in another, it means the relative influence of an area weakens.

It also is why I'm not terribly optimistic about the status of French outside the borders of Quebec at this juncture. Northeastern Ontario and Northern New Brunswick aren't setting it on fire economically and haven't been for decades now. Initially, this acted as a buffer for retention of the language, but long-term I am not sure it continues given that natural change is probably negative for these regions now.

Hence, Quebec's enthusiasm for language protection. It is a big-state solution, but de jure enforcement beats de facto hopes.

I am pretty confident that the last person left to turn out the lights in northern New Brunswick will be a francophone.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

I'd agree with this. The British could "survey the landscape" (sometimes literally), and decide whether it was worth the effort to quash minority adversaries, use the other group's existing social setup to build a system favourable to them, or just join them in a marriage of pragmatic convenience.

At times they were enlightened and practical. Probably because they had a small, comparatively wealthy/advanced population and a maritime empire. They would never maintain a global empire by fielding big armies of soldiers everywhere without allies.

One anecdote I like to post is that many administrators and officers in Nova Scotia were Huguenots in the early years of British conquest (e.g. Jean-Paul Mascarene governor in the relatively stable 1740's and then everything went to hell in the 1750's). In those days it was religion that mattered officially, not language or country of origin.

A lot of the bad stuff that happened was done without approval from London (since it took many weeks for a round trip message) or Americans. New Englanders acting on their own were a big force pushing French speakers out of NS and that was the borderland between English and French colonies. If not for Britain I'd guess Quebec would have basically been wiped out by Americans. But you won't really hear people in Quebec talk about how great Britain (and/or the crown) were. I think Britain probably gave Quebec a better standard of living too in the early years; French colonies had very limited freedoms.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

At times they were enlightened and practical. Probably because they had a small, comparatively wealthy/advanced population and a maritime empire. They would never maintain a global empire by fielding big armies of soldiers everywhere without allies.

One anecdote I like to post is that many administrators and officers in Nova Scotia were Huguenots in the early years of British conquest (e.g. Jean-Paul Mascarene governor in the relatively stable 1740's and then everything went to hell in the 1750's). In those days it was religion that mattered officially, not language or country of origin.

A lot of the bad stuff that happened was done without approval from London (since it took many weeks for a round trip message) or Americans. New Englanders acting on their own were a big force pushing French speakers out of NS and that was the borderland between English and French colonies. If not for Britain I'd guess Quebec would have basically been wiped out. But you won't really hear people in Quebec talk about how great Britain (and/or the crown) were. I think Britain probably gave Quebec a better standard of living too in the early years; French colonies had very limited freedoms.

Je me souviens (que né sous le lys je croîs sous la rose)

[lio45]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Had Canadiens joined the American revolution and won independence as the 14th state, I wonder what language they'd be speaking now.

We can’t actually be sure. Quebec went through a period of demographic boom; the exodus to industrial New England might not have played out as it did if Quebec had been part of the USA.

If you have a critical mass of Non-English culture/language nearby, you can get away with operating in the USA in a language other than English. You can see this in Miami and El Paso/Laredo/Brownsville, let alone Puerto Rico.

For a while, Canadiens were reproducing like rabbits. In fact back then I’m sure their exponential growth projection had them overtaking China eventually.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by lio45

We can’t actually be sure. Quebec went through a period of demographic boom; the exodus to industrial New England might not have played out as it did if Quebec had been part of the USA.

This was too late though. In 1820, Quebec had about 400,000 people while the US was about 10 million and the frontier was pushing past the Mississippi. I'd guess that Americans were hugely wealthier too. It doesn't seem realistic to think that Americans would move in large numbers to Wisconsin or Minnesota while leaving Quebec untouched.

[Acajack]

I actually have mixed views on this.

On the one hand Quebec isn't similar to Puerto Rico in terms of geographic location, and regions with previously dominant linguistic and cultural groups that were annexed and adjacent to the main land mass of the US all saw those groups decline in their distinctiveness and separateness, usually to the point of assimilation.

South Texas (Rio Grande Valley) and Miami are cited as examples of US linguistic and cultural vitality in a language other than English but for all the talk about the anglicization of Montreal, places like Miami, Laredo and El Paso are still overall way less comprehensively Spanish than Montreal is comprehensively French even today. And we're not even talking about the rest of Quebec.

That said, I am not sure about Quebec being that desirable a place for American settlers if one looks at how the rest of the country opened up to them in the 1800s.

Sure the St Lawrence was and is a formidable transportation corridor into the heart of the continent, but aside from that?

After the American Revolution, with the British kicked out of the 13 colonies, today's Quebec (and Ontario too) was seen as some of "the best of what was left" in addition to being accessible.

Is the St Lawrence valley really still a "best" region in a context where the border between the USA and British North America does not exist?

I also believe that Quebec at the time was probably more substantial, organized and entrenched as a "foreign" society than any other territory that the US ever absorbed to constitute the lower 48.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I mean...

https://www.tvanouvelles.ca/2022/05/26/d...a-grc-coince-dans-un-dedale-judiciaire-1

His English language skills must have been atrocious.

We often get Quebec francophone Mounties in Moncton just after their graduation from Depot so that they can brush up their English language skills (in a bilingual environment). In some cases their English skills are so bad they can't effectively do their jobs. It is not unheard of for some of these junior officers, at a traffic stop, when confronted with a unilingual anglophone driver, to ask if the driver can speak French rather than trying to offer service in the language of the drivers choice. This had led to some awkward encounters, and some potential tickets getting thrown out of court.........

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

His English language skills must have been atrocious.

We often get Quebec francophone Mounties in Moncton just after their graduation from Depot so that they can brush up their English language skills (in a bilingual environment). In some cases their English skills are so bad they can't effectively do their jobs. It is not unheard of for some of these junior officers, at a traffic stop, when confronted with a unilingual anglophone driver, to ask if the driver can speak French rather than trying to offer service in the language of the drivers choice. This had led to some awkward encounters, and some potential tickets getting thrown out of court.........

Does the same thing happens with anglophone Mounties who can't speak French?

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

On the contrary, the passage of the Quebec Act was very much the last straw that pushed the 13 colonies into open revolt. It was the cornerstone "intolerable act", designed to prevent westward expansion of the 13 colonies. The giving of the Ohio country to Quebec (Canada) particularly infuriated the Virginians and the Pennsylvanians because they had been arguing over this piece of land for years, even before the Seven Years War.

The Canadiens were unlikely to ever join the revolt. They had been relatively well treated (for the time) by their British conquerors, and they had no reason to trust their American neighbours (who were considerably less enlightened).

History matters.

Actually, the British were affraid on a revolution in Québec so the made the Quebec Act (they were hoping to calm the potential tensions up north so they could concentrate on the 13 colonies). But it backfired and it helped push the states to their own revolution.

It is like when a bank (or any business for that matter) gives preferential treament to new customers and not to their loyal longtime ones. In this case, the longtime customer got angry and switch bank.

History matters.

[ErickMontreal]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

Does the same thing happens with anglophone Mounties who can't speak French?

I have been living in New-Brunswick for 14 years total and I don’t need my two hands to count the number of Anglophones that have decent proficiency in French, let alone work in the language .

Based on my last hospital experience of English NB, my seven year old daughter could give the doctor French lessons in her spare time, although she was a good physician..

[Kilgore Trout]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Oh, I don't know. Bill 96 states that all businesses (even small businesses with few employees) must now conduct their affairs entirely in French.

This means that a small English language bookstore in Westmount, serving an almost entirely English speaking clientele, must maintain their books in French, conduct all business related conversations in French, and deal with the provincial government exclusively in French. This new policy can be strictly enforced by compliance officers who can seize office computers and business cellphones without warrant to ensure that no English words have been typed on screen or filed in business documents.

This isn't quite correct. You're right about the warrantless search and seizure powers which I find reprehensible, but businesses with fewer than 25 employees are exempt from the language requirements, as are businesses with a cultural exemption. Any English-language bookstore would almost definitely get an exemption.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by ErickMontreal

I have been living in New-Brunswick for 14 years total and I don’t need my two hands to count the number of Anglophones that have decent proficiency in French, let alone work in the language .

Based on my last hospital experience of English NB, my seven year old daughter could give the doctor French lessons in her spare time, although she was a good physician..

That is pretty much what I thought.

When a Francophone doesn't speak good enough English, it is seen as a terrible thing and as favouritism if that person holds a job where it would be preferable to be bilingual. But when an Anglophone isn't proficient enough in French, it is presented as normal because French shouldn't be necessary for the same job. Many unilingual Anglophones accuse Québec and the Canadian government of double standards concerning bilinguism, and they are right, but not in the way they think. Francophones are way more open to the other's language than Anglophones. The level of effort is asymmetrical: Francophones learns English while Anglophones tolerate French on cereal boxes (barely, but still...).

[Architype]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

That is pretty much what I thought.

When a Francophone doesn't speak good enough English, it is seen as a terrible thing and as favouritism if that person holds a job where it would be preferable to be bilingual. But when an Anglophone isn't proficient enough in French, it is presented as normal because French shouldn't be necessary for the same job. Many unilingual Anglophones accuse Québec and the Canadian government of double standards concerning bilinguism, and they are right, but not in the way they think. Francophones are way more open to the other's language than Anglophones. The level of effort is asymmetrical: Francophones learns English while Anglophones tolerate French on cereal boxes (barely, but still...).

It's easily seen as unfair, but more people are motivated to speak the dominant international language, English. I think it's accepted to hear English spoken with an accent, many, including the French Canadian one.

I love listening to Chantal Hébert on CBC, but why does she have such a strong accent, having grown up and being educated in Ontario?

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by Architype

It's easily seen as unfair, but more people are motivated to speak the dominant international language, English. I think it's accepted to hear English spoken with an accent, many, including the French Canadian one.

I love listening to Chantal Hébert on CBC, but why does she have such a strong accent, having grown up and being educated in Ontario?

I don't necessarily blame people for not learning another language (even if it is a little lazy...), but unilingual Anglophones don't speak English because it is the dominant international language, they speak it because it is the language they were born into. When I have a problem is when they are complaining that Francophones are lazy (or favorized) because they didn't learn English (or don't speak it well enough) while they themselves didn't put any effort to learn French. If someone is not ready to put an effort to learn the other official language, at the very least they shouldn't complain that others act the same way.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Architype

It's easily seen as unfair, but more people are motivated to speak the dominant international language, English.

Agreed. Then why is it so difficult for so many to understand or accept Québec's motivations?

I know, some will say "it's great and legit to protect French but not that way" and "not that way either"..

It's almost the Anglo-Canadian version of the American "some of my best friends are black".

Nobody believes it anymore.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

Does the same thing happens with anglophone Mounties who can't speak French?

Yes it does.

It is well known that perfectly bilingual Acadians will suddenly lose their ability to converse in English when confronted with an anglophone police officer at a traffic stop.

This is not generally a problem in southeastern or northern NB (most RCMP here are francophone), but this situation has arisen in places like southwestern NB. Usually the anglophone police officer will put in a request for a bilingual officer to attend the scene (slowing down the whole process, and removing another police officer from patrol), but occasionally, none is available, a traffic ticket is issued, the offender will challenge this in court on the basis on non compliance with the official languages act, and the ticket gets tossed.

A question for you (or Acajack) then - what happens if a unilingual Torontonian on his way to NS is stopped on the A-20 for an alleged speeding infraction and the SQ officer is unilingual francophone. Can the Torontonian challenge the speeding ticket in court, or is he shit out of luck..........

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Yes it does.

It is well known that perfectly bilingual Acadians will suddenly lose their ability to converse in English when confronted with an anglophone police officer at a traffic stop.

This is not generally a problem in southeastern or northern NB (most RCMP here are francophone), but this situation has arisen in places like southwestern NB. Usually the anglophone police officer will put in a request for a bilingual officer to attend the scene (slowing down the whole process, and removing another police officer from patrol), but occasionally, none is available, a traffic ticket is issued, the offender will challenge this in court on the basis on non compliance with the official languages act, and the ticket gets tossed.

A question for you (or Acajack) then - what happens if a unilingual Torontonian on his way to NS is stopped on the A-20 for an alleged speeding infraction and the SQ officer is unilingual francophone. Can the Torontonian challenge the speeding ticket in court, or is he shit out of luck..........

RCMP patrolled-areas are probably unique in the opportunity for getting a ticket cancelled for your official language choice not being respected.

SQ officers get language training and so almost all of them have some notions of English. YMMV in terms of dealing with them in English though. I don't think a speeding infraction would get thrown out in Quebec because the cop didn't speak to you English. (Traffic tickets in Quebec have English on the reverse side, and if you go to trial, you are entitled to have it in English.)

I don't believe you could get out of a speeding ticket in Ontario either just because the OPP officer didn't speak to you in French.

I've mentioned before that on the few occasions where I've had tickets in Ontario, I've always challenged them and asked for a trial in French. Anglo OPP officers never show up to ticket trials in French, from what I've noticed!

[Binour]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

Actually, the British were affraid on a revolution in Québec so the made the Quebec Act (they were hoping to calm the potential tensions up north so they could concentrate on the 13 colonies). But it backfired and it helped push the states to their own revolution.

That is what I think also. With the Quebec Act of 1774, the British intends to ensure the loyalty of Canadiens. No gift here.

I agree that the Act displeases the 13 colonies, (we were former enemies), but mostly because it gave the Ohio valley to the Canadiens. The real problem between the British and the 13 colonies were all the taxes imposed.

The continental Congress wrote letters to Quebec (3 times) to urge Canadiens to join the colonies' cause in 1774-76. They also tried to convince the population while the Montreal occupation of 1775. Under the influence of the church, the Canadiens stayed loyal to the British crown.

In conclusion, the Quebec Act of 1774 was really a concession made to the Canadiens and it is linked to the American revolution. No love here, pragmatism.

The real sentiments of the English will later be revealed by the Durham report and the union of the Lower and Upper Canada, blatantly aiming to eradicate French.

https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/862/continental-congress-letter-to-the-inhabitants-of-the-province-of-quebec