Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

I can't help but feel bad for francophones who have a hard time learning a second language; let alone being forced to learn English as a pre-requisite in English Canada.

I mean...

https://www.tvanouvelles.ca/2022/05/26/d...a-grc-coince-dans-un-dedale-judiciaire-1

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

In much of Canada, that luxury of inertia which "naturally" favours English is the result of a century or more of suppressing French (and Indigenous languages too).

It was the British Empire of the 19th and early 20th centuries, even if that was under the guise of nominally independent Dominions. Expecting anything else would be 'unnatural' for the context of that era of history, no? I'm not defending it as much as I'm saying 'It was what it was'.

It was also next door to the economic superpower of the United States, a majority English-speaking country.

Some might argue that the reason the British were so effective at running chunks of the world during that era is that they had a knack for knowing when to fight, cut a deal, or use subterfuge to accomplish their goals. That, and some luck. This goes off into the weeds of history though, and I won't derail the thread more.

[suburbanite]

Originally Posted by Acajack

In much of Canada, that luxury of inertia which "naturally" favours English is the result of a century or more of suppressing French (and Indigenous languages too).

I'm not sure that if completely left to the "free market of language" that French would have a larger role in the ROC. 50% of the country lives within spitting distance of the largest cultural exporter the world has ever seen, pumping out news, entertainment, and all forms of media in English. The free market likely wouldn't dictate mandatory French in schools anywhere west of Manitoba (and realistically large parts of Southern Ontario). The real travesty is the enclaves of French that were lost or severely damaged in New Brunswick, Ontario, and Manitoba.

I do tend to believe in a more hands off approach in the ROC and would have no problem if a French-only school was able to survive in Northern Ontario. If they have the enrollment then there is demand, and if that demand is sustained over time than obviously enough people are sticking around that community to pump out the next generation of French-only students. If people find that education to be a barrier to success, they will adapt and move to where opportunities arise.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by thewave46

Some might argue that the reason the British were so effective at running chunks of the world during that era is that they had a knack for knowing when to fight, cut a deal, or use subterfuge to accomplish their goals. That, and some luck. This goes off into the weeds of history though, and I won't derail the thread more.

I'd agree with this. The British could "survey the landscape" (sometimes literally), and decide whether it was worth the effort to quash minority adversaries, use the other group's existing social setup to build a system favourable to them, or just join them in a marriage of pragmatic convenience.

It was very businesslike. So trying to stamp French out of Lower Canada, one of the two major founding colonies of Confederation, would be like if Burger King erased the Tim Horton's brand when the companies merged.

But after forking over 100,000km2 in land grants and the equivalent of billions of today's dollars to the CPR, would the Crown let a few thousand pesky French-speaking settlers in the Red River valley get in the way of the settlement of the western half of the continent? That's like when a giant company buys a much smaller competitor and just shuts them down. Do we honestly think that the British Empire, acting through the Dominion of Canada, in the 1880s would be as accommodating of minority rights as some 21st century Environmental Impact Assessment? Let's get real here.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

It was very businesslike.

The British Empire was always very much first and foremost a mercantile enterprise.

The colonies were always colonies, and no attempt was ever made to integrate them wholly into the metropole (not like the French for example who have integrated the vestiges of their empire directly into the homeland).

The mercantile approach let the Brits be very pragmatic in their approach to empire building, and they would choose different approaches for each different colony based on the geopolitical reality of the time. This is why the Brits let the Quebecois keep their religion, their civil institutions and their common law. It is also why they made no real attempt to extirpate the French language in Quebec. They decided they could accomplish their goals in Canada without doing this.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by thewave46

It was the British Empire of the 19th and early 20th centuries, even if that was under the guise of nominally independent Dominions. Expecting anything else would be 'unnatural' for the context of that era of history, no? I'm not defending it as much as I'm saying 'It was what it was'.

It was also next door to the economic superpower of the United States, a majority English-speaking country.

Some might argue that the reason the British were so effective at running chunks of the world during that era is that they had a knack for knowing when to fight, cut a deal, or use subterfuge to accomplish their goals. That, and some luck. This goes off into the weeds of history though, and I won't derail the thread more.

As you may know, few people here are more conscious of historical norms and context than I. As my positions on everything from residential schools to statue topplings can attest.

So yeah, I am aware of how things were back then. One might even say that most French Canadians got off easy by the standards of the day, all things considered. Though one sub-group, who happen to be my Acadian forebears, arguably did not.

But when I bring it up, it's mostly to give a contextual rebuttal to comments like "French is virtually absent and useless in regions ABC-XYZ outside Quebec" or "there are no laws to prop up in English in the ROC row row row".

[Binour]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

The British Empire was always very much first and foremost a mercantile enterprise.

The colonies were always colonies, and no attempt was ever made to integrate them wholly into the metropole (not like the French for example who have integrated the vestiges of their empire directly into the homeland).

The mercantile approach let the Brits be very pragmatic in their approach to empire building, and they would choose different approaches for each different colony based on the geopolitical reality of the time. This is why the Brits let the Quebecois keep their religion, their civil institutions and their common law. It is also why they made no real attempt to extirpate the French language in Quebec. They decided they could accomplish their goals in Canada without doing this.

Don't you know that the Quebec Act of 1774 has been a concession that the British HAD to make, in order to prevent the Canadiens to join the US revolution. Without that event, the conditions made to the Canadiens in 1763 were about the same made to the Acadians (Change your religion, otherwise, you are a second class citizen).
History matters.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Binour

Don't you know that the Quebec Act of 1774 has been a concession that the British HAD to make, in order to prevent the Canadiens to join the US revolution. Without that event, the conditions made to the Canadiens in 1763 were about the same made to the Acadians (Change your religion, otherwise, you are a second class citizen).
History matters.

Had Canadiens joined the American revolution and won independence as the 14th state, I wonder what language they'd be speaking now.

[vanatox]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Do we honestly think that the British Empire, acting through the Dominion of Canada, in the 1880s would be as accommodating of minority rights as some 21st century Environmental Impact Assessment? Let's get real here.

Wasn't language schooling in French forbidden in most of Canada until the 70s and even 80s? We are not talking about the 1800s here... This is one of the main reason for which French did not do well in Ontario and Manitoba and the rest in more recent times.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by vanatox

Wasn't language schooling in French forbidden in most of Canada until the 70s and even 80s? We are not talking about the 1800s here... This is one of the main reason for which French did not do well in Ontario and Manitoba and the rest in more recent times.

I have mentioned before on here that one of my parents (still alive today) grew up in 100% French Acadian town and the schooling was all in English, with the teacher not even supposed to speak to the kids in French.

[vanatox]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I have mentioned before on here that one of my parents (still alive today) grew up in 100% French Acadian town and the schooling was all in English, with the teacher not even supposed to speak to the kids in French.

So i can add New Brunswick as well to the list. A real tragedy.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Binour

Don't you know that the Quebec Act of 1774 has been a concession that the British HAD to make, in order to prevent the Canadiens to join the US revolution. Without that event, the conditions made to the Canadiens in 1763 were about the same made to the Acadians (Change your religion, otherwise, you are a second class citizen).
History matters.

On the contrary, the passage of the Quebec Act was very much the last straw that pushed the 13 colonies into open revolt. It was the cornerstone "intolerable act", designed to prevent westward expansion of the 13 colonies. The giving of the Ohio country to Quebec (Canada) particularly infuriated the Virginians and the Pennsylvanians because they had been arguing over this piece of land for years, even before the Seven Years War.

The Canadiens were unlikely to ever join the revolt. They had been relatively well treated (for the time) by their British conquerors, and they had no reason to trust their American neighbours (who were considerably less enlightened).

History matters.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

I do tend to believe in a more hands off approach in the ROC and would have no problem if a French-only school was able to survive in Northern Ontario. If they have the enrollment then there is demand, and if that demand is sustained over time than obviously enough people are sticking around that community to pump out the next generation of French-only students. If people find that education to be a barrier to success, they will adapt and move to where opportunities arise.

Not just in Northern Ontario.

I guess you might not be aware but there are boards with French only* schools all over Toronto today. My nieces and nephews go to schools run by this board in the GTA:

https://www.grandtoronto.ca/listing/conseil-scolaire-district-catholique-centre-sud/

(*In the sense that all topics are taught in French except for English as a language.)

Now of course some would argue that this is too little too late, as this network of French first schools is extremely new, and the result of court battles waged by francophones in the 1980s and 1990s.

What would have been a lot better would have been for French schools to have existed and thrived 75-100-150 years ago in areas where there were still appreciable numbers of francophones a couple of generations ago, like Welland, Georgian Bay, Windsor, Sault Ste. Marie, Pembroke, etc.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by vanatox

We are not talking about the 1800s here...

For various reasons - and Canada is definitely not alone in this - we can consider the period before the late 1960s to belong to a totally different world.

Even after the 1960s, it took half a generation to sweep out the old cobwebs.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by vanatox

So i can add New Brunswick as well to the list. A real tragedy.

No, it wasn't in New Brunswick that that parent of mine grew up.

Though New Brunswick did ban French schools at one point as well. But due to provincial demographics and politics, it didn't last very long.

And that was long before my parents' time.

[suburbanite]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Not just in Northern Ontario.

I guess you might not be aware but there are boards with French only* schools all over Toronto today. My nieces and nephews go to schools run by this board in the GTA:

https://www.grandtoronto.ca/listing/conseil-scolaire-district-catholique-centre-sud/

(*In the sense that all topics are taught in French except for English as a language.)

Now of course some would argue that this is too little too late, as this network of French first schools is extremely new, and the result of court battles waged by francophones in the 1980s and 1990s.

What would have been a lot better would have been for French schools to have existed and thrived 75-100-150 years ago in areas where there were still appreciable numbers of francophones a couple of generations ago, like Welland, Georgian Bay, Windsor, Sault Ste. Marie, Pembroke, etc.

French immersion is fairly popular in Toronto, but my experience growing up in the GTA was that actually tended to attract more non-Francophone families (or maybe very historically distant Francophones) who viewed knowing any second language as worldly and desirable. There aren't really Francophone enclaves in the GTA where these schools help foster and ensure the survivability of a historical community, which is more what I was referring to in Northern Ontario with places like Cochrane, Timmins, North Bay, etc.

If there was a complete laissez-faire approach to language and schooling in Canada's history, Welland likely would have a bigger mix of French and English schools.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

50% of the country lives within spitting distance of the largest cultural exporter the world has ever seen, pumping out news, entertainment, and all forms of media in English. .

Ever been to St-Jean-sur-Richelieu, QC? It's a 30-minute drive from the US border. It's a small city of 75-100k that's almost completely francophone in its everyday life.

Or even try Edmundston, NB. It's right on the border with an American town right across the bridge.

French isn't quite as robust there as in St-Jean but it's still pretty damned dynamic.

That's what happens when French isn't treated like a foreign language and is allowed to have and develop its own institutional and community network.

The US-Canada border might not be a cultural border for you guys but it definitely is for us.

Threats to French in this country are mostly internal to Canada and related to Canadian policies and imperatives (federal and provincial) past and present, and not directly to US stuff.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

French immersion is fairly popular in Toronto, but my experience growing up in the GTA was that actually tended to attract more non-Francophone families (or maybe very historically distant Francophones) who viewed knowing any second language as worldly and desirable. There aren't really Francophone enclaves in the GTA where these schools help foster and ensure the survivability of a historical community, which is more what I was referring to in Northern Ontario with places like Cochrane, Timmins, North Bay, etc.

If there was a complete laissez-faire approach to language and schooling in Canada's history, Welland likely would have a bigger mix of French and English schools.

These aren't French immersion schools, BTW. This is a separate system under separate boards. (French immersion schools are under the anglophone boards, and communicate with parents in English, for example.)

These schools I am talking about are French first schools (communicating with parents in French, for example) and generally operate like any francophone school would in Quebec or even in any francophone place in the world.

With all subjects in French with English as a (sic) "second language".

[suburbanite]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Ever been to St-Jean-sur-Richelieu, QC? It's a 30-minute drive from the US border. It's a small city of 75-100k that's almost completely francophone in its everyday life.

Or even try Edmundston, NB. It's right on the border with an American town right across the bridge.

French isn't quite as robust there as in St-Jean but it's still pretty damned dynamic.

That's what happens when French isn't treated like a foreign language and is allowed to have and develop its own institutional and community network.

The US-Canada border might not be a cultural border for you guys but it definitely is for us.

Threats to French in this country are mostly internal to Canada and related to Canadian policies and imperatives (federal and provincial) past and present, and not directly to US stuff.

St-Jean would be a very different beast then Windsor, Ontario even if the latter had maintained a much healthier French community. My point was that I have doubts about how much Francophone enclaves in Ontario border towns would have permeated into the majority Anglophone (and then subsequent South and East Asian immigrant) communities in a theoretical non-interventionalist environment, given how Anglophones in Canada consume the majority of their media and entertainment. I guess I'm more questioning how much the presence of stronger French enclaves would've halted "English inertia" in the larger population. If we're just talking about English inertia slowly diminishing those enclaves through the help of restricted schooling options then there's probably not even a debate to be had.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

I'm not sure that if completely left to the "free market of language" that French would have a larger role in the ROC. (...) The real travesty is the enclaves of French that were lost or severely damaged in New Brunswick, Ontario, and Manitoba.

These and others in some of the other provinces are the areas I was talking about (not so much New Brunswick, though) as opposed to other parts of the ROC where francophones never really lived in decent numbers. We'll never know how things would have turned out had so many existing francophone institutions (schools, hospitals, etc.) in the ROC's provinces had not been taken over by governments and switched over to English.

Though the places that have good decades-old or century-old institutional networks do give us an idea of what might have been.