[Halifax] Nova Centre | 65-58-58 m | 16-15-14 fl | Completed

[Keith P.]

Rachel Brighton's items in the Sunday Herald always get my BP way up. She has no business writing about business as she has no clue what she is talking about most of the time. She comes across as a granola-cruncher of the first order and is surely a dyed in the wool NDP type based upon the positions she puts forward. I fail to understand why Leger of the Herald gives her a weekly space in the business section. Just another example of that newspaper's decline.

[fenwick16]

It does seem strange that the editor (Rachel Brighton) of the magazine below which has stories about such things as agriculture is commenting on a convention centre complex in the city.

(source: http://www.policyreview.ca/index.php )

[sdm]

Convention centre may get secret treatment
Council agenda suggests meeting on project this week may go in camera
By MICHAEL LIGHTSTONE City Hall Reporter
Sun, Oct 17 - 5:36 AM

Artist's depiction of proposed convention centre for downtown Halifax.






Inquiring taxpayers want to know: why are municipal coun­cillors planning to huddle behind closed doors this week to discuss the proposed Halifax convention centre, a contentious project that would be built with public mon­ey ?

Halifax regional council is scheduled to receive a city staff presentation about the $159-million development at a committee of the whole session on Tuesday morning.

According to council’s agenda, the convention centre issue is to be discussed privately following the open committee meeting. It’s listed as a “contractual matter."

Most of the proposal’s finan­cial details have already been made public, though council hasn’t received a specific contri­bution request from the Dexter government, Mayor Peter Kelly said last week.

The province’s financial sup­port for the convention complex, at the Argyle Street site of the demolished Halifax Herald Ltd.

building, is contingent on funds coming from Halifax Regional Municipality and the federal government.

Ottawa has not committed any money to the planned centre.

On Saturday, Kelly acknow­ledged the closed session at city hall was scheduled last week but said it may not be necessary.

He said it would take place if the committee of the whole meeting evolves into negotia­tions with the province on what the city’s share of the proposed project will be.

“If it involves elements of the negotiations of the contract, it may need to go" behind closed doors, the mayor said.

Kelly said the outcome of the committee session will deter­mine whether the politicians meet in secret afterwards to discuss the convention centre.

Coun. Tim Outhit (Bedford) said he’d be astonished if the discussion ends up in a closed session of council that day.

“I would be very surprised if it moved along that quickly, with the number of questions (coun­cillors) have," he said.

“After committee of the whole we’re going to get all the an­swers, and say: ‘OK — we’re ready to vote on this. Let’s go in camera?’ That’s a little bit of a stretch, in my mind."

Regional council routinely meets privately to cover legal, personnel or property issues.

Council had met 20 times in secret by the end of September, municipal records show.

Last year, council went behind closed doors 21 times from the beginning of January to the end of September. The time frame includes a couple of three-week periods during the summer when councillors take a break from regular meetings.

The new convention centre would be three times bigger than the current one, which opened in 1984, and take about three years to build. That’s roughly the amount of time it took to put up the CN Tower in Toronto.

([email protected])

[coolmillion]

I don't know much about Rachel Brighton or read her column, but her comment on the Convention Centre seems completely reasonable to me. This is a massive publicly funded project in the centre of downtown. Of course the public (the people who will have to look at it every day for the rest of their lives and pay for it, in part, for some time) should contribute to the process in some way. I also think it is possible to separate the financing side of the equation from concerns around the design and the planning process. Frankly, I have given only superficial interest to the numbers (which, admittedly are very important), but I'm quite concerned about public consultation and design.
I've been living in Hong Kong for the past 6 months and the Convention Centre here is built on reclaimed land on the harbour with massive lobby spaces with floor to ceiling windows that can hold receptions, banquets, exhibitions, etc. Many of the meeting rooms are windowless boxes (the norm in most convention centres). The open airy feeling and views in the commone spaces are what people notice and remember about the building.

[Keith P.]

What people want to "consult" on has nothing to do with the CC. If they do not like the towers, that is unfortunate, but don't get that mixed up with the CC, because they are not it. The towers are a hotel, office, anything but a CC. After all, even the naysayers are contending it is all in the basement. Who consults on a basement?

In Halifax this whole concept of public consultation has gotten way out of hand. It has empowered obstructionists like the HT and the Epsteins of the world to hold the city back and derail countless projects. The public in general is totally unqualified to comment on these things. All you get are the usual suspects who show up to every meeting in the hope of snagging a free sandwich and then proclaim:

"It has too much glass, birds will get killed"
"It doesn't have enough glass, the inside will be too dark"
"It can't make money because its too big"
"It can't make money because its not big enough"
"It should look like the building down the street that was built in 1892"
"I don't like the color -- why isn't it a nice red brick?"
"It should have free meeting rooms and auditoriums for artists and poor people"

and finally

"It's TOO TALL!!!!"

It is all quite ridiculous.

[phrenic]

I don't know much about Rachel Brighton or read her column, but her comment on the Convention Centre seems completely reasonable to me.

This.

She has no business writing about business...

She writing about the lack of civic engagement associated with the Convention Centre proposal, not about "business" or even the economics of the proposal. She's absolutely right and you're just insulting her, rather than offering any counterpoints. Classy.

[phrenic]

What people want to "consult" on has nothing to do with the CC.

Nope. I've spoken with many opponents, including editorial staff at The Coast, and the bigger concerns are with the CC as "a bunker" and with utterly disastrous street level design, lack of appropriate setbacks and massing, etc.

A vast majority of people don't give a shit about the view from Citadel Hill.

[coolmillion]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

In Halifax this whole concept of public consultation has gotten way out of hand.

I would argue that it is due to the lack of public engagement and consultation that special interest groups like HT have been able to dominate the few avenues for input that exist. They have time and resources and know how to navitage council meetings and URB appeals. Obstructionists are obviously in a position to obstruct whether or not there is a formal consultation process. Such a process might benefit from contributions by other parties, including those who support development but demand good design.

Consultation, in theory, is meant too be benefit from a diversity of viewpoints and the productive dialogue they create. To foreclose engagement because people aren't "unqualified" to comment...

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by phrenic

This.
She writing about the lack of civic engagement associated with the Convention Centre proposal, not about "business" or even the economics of the proposal. She's absolutely right and you're just insulting her, rather than offering any counterpoints. Classy.

I agree with Keith P. Do most people know what is required in a convention centre? I have been to many conventions centres but I wouldn't pretend to know the actual requirements for a successful convention centre. 99% of people wouldn't know what specifications are required. Instead of consultations, information seminars might be in order to state why the convention centre is built the way that it is.

If I need a new car it might make sense to consult with people in the community, but if I want to buy a jet then it would make sense to speak to people with knowledge of jets.

PS: Could people stop insulting others with icons such as the kooku icon. This is just a direct insult to the people posting legitimate opinions and to others reading this forum.

[coolmillion]

you're right about the icons... sorry about that, Keith!

[Empire]

Originally Posted by DigitalNinja

It would be nice if they could stick a mall in here, a nice modern mall, something like this mall I was in, in China...



Mind you I would think something like 3 floors would be ok, in a round open concept.

This is Park Lane.

[phrenic]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Do most people know what is required in a convention centre? I have been to many conventions centres but I wouldn't pretend to know the actual requirements for a successful convention centre. 99% of people wouldn't know what specifications are required.

Of course most people don't know what's required to make a convention centre successful. I don't, you don't and neither does she. But she's not making that argument. She's saying that since there is a massive public investment in this, the developer owes the public something that serves their interests - not just those of the business community and convention goers. Right now, the idea is that this will generate tax revenue for the betterment of the greater population. That's simply not good enough.

If she were suggesting the towers be shortened or that there should be a public art gallery in the CC or, frankly, any other specific suggestion relative to the requirements for a successful CC, then your argument against her would hold weight. But she's not doing that. Keith is simply attacking her for commenting that the CC should be a source of civic pride and that the develop needs to do something to meet that expectation. She's right. He's wrong. Again.

Look at the NSP/Discovery Centre partnership - an awesome example of civic engagement and something that will truly benefit the surrounding community - all done, entirely unnecessarily, with private money. Rank Inc, with $160,000,000 of OUR money owes us something too.

[Buckey]

AS you all may have gathered I am not well versed in construction costs.

If we were to just look at this convention center as a free standing building without the hotel complexes is $160 Milion a reasonable number. Just a gut feel yes or no maybe based on some sort iof standard metric used in construction. Include land costs

I keep looking at that massive complex and thinking we are paying 160 million for a tiny piece and the entire structure is stated is only be $500 million to build entire complex. And does anyone know for sure if the $500 million if for the whole thing?

[DigitalNinja]

I agree with her on the main point that this should be an icon. If we are going to go big we may as well go extraordinary. To bad that would cost more money.

PS: I don't think parklane looks anywhere as nice as that. Halifax needs a new MALL not this outdoor shit, like DC, and bayers lake.

And Buckley, we already said that we are not discussing cost anymore, this thread is not the place for that.

[hfx_chris]

Originally Posted by phrenic

Nope. I've spoken with many opponents, including editorial staff at The Coast, and the bigger concerns are with the CC as "a bunker" and with utterly disastrous street level design, lack of appropriate setbacks and massing, etc.

So in other words the HT folks are trying to find just about anything they can possibly think of to oppose this, because they know the majority of us are getting tired of hearing them always oppose things based on height and views.

[phrenic]

Originally Posted by hfx_chris

So in other words the HT folks are trying to find just about anything they can possibly think of to oppose this, because they know the majority of us are getting tired of hearing them always oppose things based on height and views.

No, not really. The HT folks aren't that smart. But believe whatever you want. I'm just a guy on the internet.

[phrenic]

Oops double post.

[sdm]

Originally Posted by Buckey

AS you all may have gathered I am not well versed in construction costs.

If we were to just look at this convention center as a free standing building without the hotel complexes is $160 Milion a reasonable number. Just a gut feel yes or no maybe based on some sort iof standard metric used in construction. Include land costs

I keep looking at that massive complex and thinking we are paying 160 million for a tiny piece and the entire structure is stated is only be $500 million to build entire complex. And does anyone know for sure if the $500 million if for the whole thing?

To give you a perspective.

Fenwick states the cost per square foot are coming in around $450/sf.

As a comparison, International Place would have a construction cost of around $200-$250 per square foot with fully built out finishes on all floors.

Emera's new headquaters is running close to $330 a foot from the numbers i've found. That is higher then new constuction due to high demo costs and environmental remediation costs.

[worldlyhaligonian]

This thread is now officially retarded.

[Buckey]

SDM =- Thank you for the response as it give me a frame of reference