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  #16181  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2023, 7:11 PM
OCCheetos OCCheetos is offline
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Originally Posted by Richard Eade View Post
I
The TSB gave the city a golden opportunity to put the strongest pressure yet on Alstom. An independent safety board had openly declared that the LRT vehicles have a possible design flaw that creates safety risks to the public. This is what the city should have run with. All of the trains should have been pulled IMMEDIATELY, and every media outlet that could be reached should have been given the story that the ALSTOM vehicles were UNSAFE for use. And, when I say ALSTOM, I mean that Alstom’s name needed to be used, not RTG/RTM.
I don't think the city can rationalize pulling the vehicles out of service when even the TSB doesn't think it's necessary. That would have implications towards the relationship the city has with RTG. At the very least they would still need to be paid while delivering zero service.

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Instead, Ottawa went into its usual self-defense position and declared that the trains are perfectly safe – nothing to see here, move along. Ottawa bailed Alstom out of a potential pressure situation where they would have had to act. Now it is ‘Continue as usual’. That means that RTM will remain on the hook for millions in extra cost.
Keep in mind that these trains are still under warranty between RTM and Alstom, and who knows what the financial arrangement between those two companies is. Alstom isn't getting to just walk away from this.


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When many more axles are purchased (from Alstom) because they need replacing at 15% of their predicted life, it is RTM that foots the bill. Alstom is, no doubt, happy for the extra part sales. RTM is also the one stuck paying Alstom for all of the extra maintenance work that needs to be done. So, with Alstom getting wind-fall cash from labour and parts, and not getting any of the bad press – which the city has been directing at RTG/RTM – what is the impetus for Alstom to actually change anything?
Again, this still has implications against Alstom. Your argument is predicated on a lot of (likely incorrect) assumptions.

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Is it any wonder that Alstom has taken so long looking into the root cause of the failures, but still has not come up with any answers?
More likely: the problem is complex. It took the TSB just as long to state that there may be a design flaw. Designing, and then implementing a fix would naturally take longer, no?
     
     
  #16182  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2023, 4:45 AM
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Also don't forget that Alstom claimed in the hearing that the trains are being used in a way that is beyond what they were designed for. I don't know if this is true or not, but I suspect there is at least some truth to it. My guess it is the high speed sharp bends (hence the slow orders). These are LRT vehicles and designed for use on city streets, where the sharp turns are at intersections, where the vehicles would be slowing down for traffic. Putting those sharp bends on a fully, grade separated track means that speeds are expected to be higher.
     
     
  #16183  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2023, 2:35 PM
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Tight budget could leave transit riders exposed to the elements
Protective scaffolding at Hurdman, Tunney's Pasture stations costing $700K a year

Joanne Chianello · CBC · Posted: Feb 28, 2023 4:00 AM EST | Last Updated: 3 hours ago




Temporary scaffolding that protects public transit riders from foul weather as they dash between the LRT and connecting buses at Hurdman and Tunney's Pasture stations is on the budget chopping block at Ottawa city hall this week.

Soon after the Confederation Line was launched in September 2019, the city erected the covered scaffolding on the bus platforms at the two stations, where the paths leading from the station doors to the buses are particularly long and riders found they were exposed to the elements.

The city has spent nearly $2 million to rent the scaffolding since it was erected. The price tag for this year alone is expected to be about $700,000.

Now, the temporary weather covering could come down as part of an effort to find $47 million in savings in this year's transit budget.

The possibility came as a surprise to a number of OC Tranpso riders who say they often walk or stand under the protective scaffolding at Hurdman.

"Um, wow," said Phil Barbosa when told of the plan."The scaffolding is actually pretty useful."

Barbosa takes the train from Tunney's Pasture to Hurdman, where he catches a connecting bus that he says can sometimes take 30 or 40 minutes to arrive.

"If it's raining, it there's hail, it there's snow, it does provide shelter," he said of the scaffolding. "Walking from the station all the way down here can be quite a trek with the amount of people."

Harshit Tomar was similarly unimpressed.

"It's not a good idea," said the University of Ottawa student, who arrived from India only a few months ago. He works at Billings Bridge and said both buses he can take from Hurdman arrive at the far end of the bus platform.

"If this is gone and it's snowing, so how would you supposed to just walk over here?"

Amina Asad was also unhappy to hear the scaffolding might be coming down.

"When it's raining outside, if it's snowing, people can just walk underneath it and get away from the weather," she told CBC. "I use it all the time, so I think people should keep it as a permanent thing."

The plan to tear down the scaffolding also came as a surprise to Alta Vista Coun. Marty Carr who, like many residents in her ward, uses the station regularly as a transfer point.

"I wasn't aware and it's very worrisome to me that that's being considered," Carr told CBC following a marathon transit commission meeting earlier this month.

Ironically, that meeting began with a discussion about improving the scaffolding, which some find unsightly despite coloured tarps placed there by the city. In fact, the transit commission directed staff to report back on what a permanent covered pathway might look like, and what it might cost.

But Carr said she doesn't see how the current scaffolding can come down before a long-term solution is found.

"I think there'll be a lot of concern that the plan is actually to take the scaffolding away when residents have been asking for things to be made more permanent and to look better and be more reliable."

At Tunney's Pasture, the city had to borrow federal land to expand the bus platform after the initial design proved too small to accommodate all the people who would be transferring between buses and the LRT. The larger platform means people have farther to go to get from the station to their bus stop, so the city erected the scaffolding to provide protection from the elements.

Tunney's is currently the western terminus of the Confederation Line, and has to accommodate all the buses from that side of the city. The Stage 2 western extension is currently slated to open in late 2026 — it's 17 months late so far — at which point the platform will be reduced and the scaffolding likely won't be needed any more.

Kitchissippi Coun. Jeff Leiper, whose ward includes Tunney's Pasture, said he'd like to hear from riders about how important the scaffolding is to their commute.

The fact that the scaffolding is on the chopping block is a sign of what Mayor Mark Sutcliffe called a "tight" 2023 draft budget, which council is set to approve on Wednesday.

There are plenty of signs of penny pinching in the city's $5.5-billion budget, from slightly shrinking the heritage planning spending — despite a looming deadline to designate potentially at-risk heritage properties — to increasing councillors' traffic-calming budgets by 25 per cent instead of doubling them as the mayor promised in last fall's election campaign.

But nowhere are the budget constraints more apparent than in transit.

Council has directed OC Transpo to freeze fares, raise taxes by just 2.5 per cent and maintain service. To that end, OC Transpo plans to hire 52 net new drivers, who should be able to help reduce the number of bus cancellations, which can reach 400 on a bad day.

At the same time, the transit department is contemplating a $53-million shortfall in revenue due to an expected ridership of just 70 per cent compared to pre-pandemic levels.

OC Transpo has had to find ways to cut costs. It's saving millions by retiring 117 old buses it doesn't use, and another $42.7 million by deferring work on the delayed segments of Stage 2 and putting off annual contributions to certain capital funds.

Getting rid of the scaffolding is part of those savings, albeit a very small one. Even so, the city still needs at least $39 million from the provincial government to make the transit budget work this year.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/lrt-weather-protection-scaffolding-hurdman-tunneys-1.6759844
     
     
  #16184  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2023, 2:40 PM
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This is mind blowing!! How much would it have cost to build proper coverage as part of the initial build. Or BUY scaffolding for the two stations??
     
     
  #16185  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2023, 3:52 PM
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Quote:
and another $42.7 million by deferring work on the delayed segments of Stage 2
This makes me nervous, that the city may be responsible for further Stage 2 delays.

The existing scaffolds are ugly and in the case of Hurdman, the rider is still exposed to the elements between the train and buses. Part of LRT platform is open to the elements and again when you exit the station. So, even with the scaffold, we are exposed twice.

I have been to Hurdman in the pouring rain a couple of times. Who approved this station design?

But, Stage 2 of the Trillium Line will be far worse.
     
     
  #16186  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2023, 4:07 PM
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Quote:
The city has spent nearly $2 million to rent the scaffolding since it was erected. The price tag for this year alone is expected to be about $700,000.
this is a water heater rental scam on a municipal scale

guess the scaffold company should've made a donation to our mayor's war chest during the campaign
     
     
  #16187  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2023, 4:45 PM
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
This is mind blowing!! How much would it have cost to build proper coverage as part of the initial build. Or BUY scaffolding for the two stations??
The initial build seemed to take no account of the elements anywhere. The lack of down escalators (with a few exceptions) mean the stairs are getting covered in water creating a significant safety hazard. There are no covered connections to nearby major buildings like the train station. Most platforms are uncovered or exposed to the wind (or both). I suspect salt is corroding the whole system.

Small correction. I believe the West Entrance of Rideau Station is well-designed for the elements. It includes a direct connection to the Rideau Centre and the outdoor entrance is covered and partly protected from the elements. Down escalators reduce the water buildup on the stairs. I wonder if CF played a big role in its design.

Last edited by acottawa; Feb 28, 2023 at 5:28 PM.
     
     
  #16188  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2023, 4:52 PM
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Legitimately embarrassing.
     
     
  #16189  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2023, 6:27 PM
YukonLlama YukonLlama is offline
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Here we are nickle and diming OC Transpo service then throwing away 2M on scaffolding rentals? From a budget/cost saving perspective, this makes absolutely no sense.
     
     
  #16190  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2023, 7:30 PM
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I just got home after being interviewed for 1 1/2 hours concerning transit issues as I saw them. Not TV, so few will see the outcome. We covered a lot of territory from poor station design and locations, the poor frequent bus network, and options for Bank Street including a subway, surface trams and bus lanes and the need to make sure that our planning for rail does not block future possibilities.
     
     
  #16191  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2023, 8:13 PM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
I just got home after being interviewed for 1 1/2 hours concerning transit issues as I saw them. Not TV, so few will see the outcome. We covered a lot of territory from poor station design and locations, the poor frequent bus network, and options for Bank Street including a subway, surface trams and bus lanes and the need to make sure that our planning for rail does not block future possibilities.
Where is the interview going to be? Would love to see it.
     
     
  #16192  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2023, 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted by phil235 View Post
Where is the interview going to be? Would love to see it.
I don't know yet. He said he will be in contact with me. He is a Carleton University journalism student who conducted the interview but I should have asked if it was a class project.

I expressed a concern that the failings of Phase 1 are going to negatively affect future rail projects. The public is now skeptical.
     
     
  #16193  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2023, 12:18 AM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
I don't know yet. He said he will be in contact with me. He is a Carleton University journalism student who conducted the interview but I should have asked if it was a class project.

I expressed a concern that the failings of Phase 1 are going to negatively affect future rail projects. The public is now skeptical.
Thanks. I think they write in a bunch of local papers, so could be for that too.

No doubt there is a lack of trust in the city’s ability to pull off these projects now. Try selling a major expansion while the first stage is potentially unsafe.
     
     
  #16194  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2023, 12:24 AM
eltodesukane eltodesukane is offline
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"Temporary scaffolding that protects public transit riders from foul weather...
It's not even protecting anything!
Not protecting from sun, wind, rain, snow, cold, heat.
     
     
  #16195  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2023, 7:11 PM
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The scaffolding was a knee jerk reaction, which was intended to be upgraded to permanent structures. I remember the first week, with wind/rain blasting the hundreds of plebes waiting for a bus at Hurdman Station. Those who got a spot inside the tiny enclosed waiting shelters missed their busses because the windows were all fogged and it was packed like sardines. Lost a few pairs of shoes to the elements during that time...

Where is the RFP/construction of those permanent structures? Just a steel frame with a roof over it. It's not rocket science. Even just like, dozens of bus shelter frames installed next to eachother would work.

The City could have BOUGHT the installed scaffolding equipment four times over by now, but yet we still rent. It could have been made permanent, as a 'derelict' architecture style, as the plywood rots and the tarps get more and more thread-bare (zoolander reference).

Yesterday was a sh*tshow again. Rush-hour morning train stopped at uOttawa, no announcement other than 'there's a stopped train', doors wide open with snow blasting everyone on the train. Ended up getting off after about 20 mins, freezing, to walk downtown. At least I was within walking distance, and could walk that far. Got some exercise and a soaker.

Evening rush-hour, someone actively smoking crack and then spitting and yelling at passengers. Most chose to alight at uOttawa again, lol.

All-in-all SO much better than driving *not*.
     
     
  #16196  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2023, 7:19 PM
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The Chevrolet train system has degraded to a used 1982 Chevette model.
     
     
  #16197  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2023, 8:58 PM
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I don’t understand how they choose to prioritize spending and where to cut corners.

At Lyon they built a huge concourse that doesn’t seem to serve any purpose but no down escalator. They also made a gigantic secondary entrance at street level.

At lightly used stations like Cyrville they built two full entrances with those oversized roof things. At a heavily used station like Hurdman they didn’t bother to have a covered access to the bus waiting area (despite a huge dry area under the station that is just fenced off). At train they couldn’t be bothered with a covered connection to the train station.
     
     
  #16198  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2023, 4:41 PM
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
At Lyon they built a huge concourse that doesn’t seem to serve any purpose but no down escalator.

If you mean down escalators onto the platforms, there is a safety risk of having a non-stop flow of people into a small space.


If you mean down escalators to the concourse from the ground... I'm right there with you.
     
     
  #16199  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2023, 5:42 PM
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Originally Posted by llatch View Post
If you mean down escalators onto the platforms, there is a safety risk of having a non-stop flow of people into a small space.


If you mean down escalators to the concourse from the ground... I'm right there with you.
Yes, that is what I meant, getting to the concourse level from the street.
     
     
  #16200  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2023, 7:46 PM
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
At train they couldn’t be bothered with a covered connection to the train station.
At Tremblay station, unless VIA is willing to open an entrance to the station on the wall close to the O-Train station (which isn't likely as they lease out that space), extending the shelter the couple extra meters across the parking lot entrance wouldn't do much, as you would still be mostly exposed while walking along the sidewalk in front of the station. Extending the shelter to the entrance is a non-starter, as it would likely require that the trees in front of the building be cut down.

I have said this before, but I would love to see P1 (and the leased out, western part of the station) be converted into a bus depot. This would allow better integration with the O-Train station overall.

https://goo.gl/maps/Qspb6Rnt9DLwojQ7A
     
     
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