DENVER | Transportation Thread

[EngiNerd]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

^
I'm not sure I'd expect that. I imagine more people who live in Longmont probably work in Boulder, Broomfield, and Westminster than in downtown Denver.

Not that I have any proof of this.

That is correct, and here's your proof (2000 census) showing numbers of workers originating in Longmont, and where they go:

Longmont 17,311
Boulder 8,975
Unincorporated Boulder 2,914
Outside of Region 2,070
Denver 1,219
Louisville 775
Broomfield 754
Lafayette 468
Westminster 327
Unincorporated Adams 264

http://www.drcog.org/workerflows/PDFs/Longmont.PDF?CFID=228213&CFTOKEN=91728816

http://www.drcog.org/workerflows/workerflows.cfm

Pretty cool website actually, you can see worker commuter patterns for any city in the DRCOG region.

Here is also a link to a PPT showing the major northern front range cities commuter patterns:

http://www.nfrmpo.org/ResourcesDocuments.aspx
and click on "2009 Front Range Travel Counts Maps"

[lostknight]

I love how people, not from Boulder, think that they can speak for Boulder. Not that I expect Denverites to understand, but there is politics, enthusiasm and support for "Light Rail" outside of the Denver suburbs, and backers in Boulder were key to Fasttrax getting through in the first place. Now welching on the "regional" part of RTD's mandate to deliver more to Denver will not be acceptable to Boulder, which generates a very large chunk of RTD's usage tax base.

The mayors understand elections, and they understand that unless they get Boulder Votes, they won't succeed. That means DMU service to Boulder is absolutely mandatory. It also means that if RTD decides to shut that down, the weight of lawsuits that would hit it from concerned groups in the People's Republic will be epic.

As things sit right now, I expect a tax increase for RTD to pass. However, the attitude on the hill that 700 million dollars in cuts will pacify deficit hawks in the country may end up poisoning attitudes in the state. That could doom it, but I don't think the difference between .25 and .40 cents would really make a difference in that scenario.

(And yes, I live in Boulder... and yes, I grew up in Boulder. And yes, I find a lot of Denverite's attitudes about Boulder infuriating. )

[Brainpathology]

Originally Posted by lostknight

I love how people, not from Boulder, think that they can speak for Boulder. Not that I expect Denverites to understand, but there is politics, enthusiasm and support for "Light Rail" outside of the Denver suburbs, and backers in Boulder were key to Fasttrax getting through in the first place. Now welching on the "regional" part of RTD's mandate to deliver more to Denver will not be acceptable to Boulder, which generates a very large chunk of RTD's usage tax base.

The mayors understand elections, and they understand that unless they get Boulder Votes, they won't succeed. That means DMU service to Boulder is absolutely mandatory. It also means that if RTD decides to shut that down, the weight of lawsuits that would hit it from concerned groups in the People's Republic will be epic.

If DMU service to Boulder is absolutely mandatory why didn't Boulder insist on a route that actually went into Boulder instead of tangentially skimming the eastside of town? I'm not sure I would get behind scrapping the rail part of fastracks for Boulder myself but I think some really compelling arguments for why it's not really going to add much to the network have been made here.

If you're really going to insist on the rail plan as is with it just baaaaaarely making it into town with a stop which is really just on the way to somewhere else that's fine. But from a former resident of Boulder's point of view that is going to go in the same bin as Boulder's "diversity". Speaking of, who's turn is it to be Boulder's African American Resident this year anyway (who isn't on the football team)?

[Cirrus]

Translation of what lostknight just said: "Boulderites refuse to do the right thing environmentally or socially unless they are bribed / bought off with an expensive, ineffective, and redundant rail project that few of them will ever use. Boulderites demand a train because they think having a useful bus AND a redundant train that they'll never use is more 'fair' to the region than not wasting money on the redundant train."

Or, put more simply, "Boulder is being stupid and selfish - again."

Oh, and by the way, I've lived in Boulder as an adult, but not Denver. And *I* find Boulder's selfish attitudes about the rest of the metropolitan area to be pretty infuriating. I do not forgive Boulder for slamming the door on growth and pushing all its sprawl out to the rest of the region. I especially don't forgive Boulder for doing that while patting itself on the back for being so environmental friendly.

[taylor23]

Originally Posted by Brainpathology

If DMU service to Boulder is absolutely mandatory why didn't Boulder insist on a route that actually went into Boulder instead of tangentially skimming the eastside of town? I'm not sure I would get behind scrapping the rail part of fastracks for Boulder myself but I think some really compelling arguments for why it's not really going to add much to the network have been made here.

If you're really going to insist on the rail plan as is with it just baaaaaarely making it into town with a stop which is really just on the way to somewhere else that's fine. But from a former resident of Boulder's point of view that is going to go in the same bin as Boulder's "diversity". Speaking of, who's turn is it to be Boulder's African American Resident this year anyway (who isn't on the football team)?

How is the West line any different, just barely making into Golden. The West end of line will still leave you a good distance away from most reasons for a trip to Golden.

It is unfortunate that the NW Line will not make stops at CU and downtown Boulder but I guess there was no rail right away for those destinations. All the lines are mostly PnR to PnR stops with few walkable destinations. It seems unfair to bash Boulder for a common failure of the whole system. I know Boulder is also getting BRT but that is turning out to just mostly be PnR upgrades and all the lines are getting new PnR's.

I live between Boulder and Denver and love both cities. I have never understood why there seems to be so much hatred between the two.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by taylor23

How is the West line any different, just barely making into Golden. The West end of line will still leave you a good distance away from most reasons for a trip to Golden.

It is unfortunate that the NW Line will not make stops at CU and downtown Boulder but I guess there was no rail right away for those destinations. All the lines are mostly PnR to PnR stops with few walkable destinations. It seems unfair to bash Boulder for a common failure of the whole system. I know Boulder is also getting BRT but that is turning out to just mostly be PnR upgrades and all the lines are getting new PnR's.

I live between Boulder and Denver and love both cities. I have never understood why there seems to be so much hatred between the two.

That's not entirely true. We're talking about $210 million in "park-n-ride upgrades." It's not a great BRT, but it's still BRT. It's still going to have 2-minute headways. And it is still going to carry twice as many riders as the NW rail (and as many as some of the LRT corridors). The only difference is (a) it's not as sexy as a train, and (b) its funding is a little more complicated because of the CDOT factor. But it's still the better system. I have little sympathy for the bruised-ego, "we are Boulder and all we get is a bus" whining.

And you're comparing apples and oranges. The Jefferson County government center is the biggest reason to go to Golden, except maybe for Coors. But given the choice, the Taj Mahal/Federal Center is the better route. Golden is more origin than destination. That's not strictly the case for Boulder, so from a transit-modeling perspective, it's a poor comparison.

I enjoy Boulder. I certainly enjoyed living in Boulder. I don't see hatred between Denver and Boulder. I see contempt from most places in Colorado, not just Denver, toward Boulder. And Boulder deserves it. Few places in America, and no place else in Colorado, are as blatantly hypocritical as Boulder. Old Boulder, back in the day, was fine, just good 'ole hippies. But now, it's rich and exclusive, while pretending to be something else. It's the biggest gated community in Colorado, and the only one purporting to fly the flag of liberalism. John Kerry's populism, environmentalism, and concern for the needy, are more pure than Boulder's. Boulderites are the types who would drive a hybrid tank to Broomfield for work and scoff at anybody who dared to question their dedication to the environment (because the criticism comes from somebody driving a non-hybrid Civic who lives in Longmont, probably because they work in Boulder but can't afford to live there anymore).

[taylor23]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

And you're comparing apples and oranges. The Jefferson County government center is the biggest reason to go to Golden, except maybe for Coors. But given the choice, the Taj Mahal/Federal Center is the better route. Golden is more origin than destination. That's not strictly the case for Boulder, so from a transit-modeling perspective, it's a poor comparison.

.

You are probably right just looking at employment but when I look at a stop the first thing I think of is "what is there fun to do around that stop." There is also a prison at that stop as well. Prisoner's get better access to rail transit then Boulder?

I assume Boulder must have had a passenger train station at some time in the past. Where would that have been?

[SnyderBock]

I say give Boulder and Longmont the DMU train, but not until the state CDOT, injects it with some funds for a Front Range Commuter Rail Starter Program. This would mean the service would also extend north to Loveland and Fort Collins. Here's what I was thinking. Something along these lines. I split it into two lines, a North Front Range and a South Front Range line.

North Front Range would run like this:
Fort Collins > Loveland > Longmont > Boulder > Broomfield > Westminster > Union Station > Peoria/Smith Rd > Denver International Airport

South Front Range would run like this:
Pueblo > Colorado Springs > Mineral Station > Englewood > I-25/Broadway > Union Station > Peoria/Smith Rd > Denver International Airport
*Re-Route AmTrak SW Chief to Pueblo

SOUTH FRONT RANGE LINE:
-Front Range Commuter Rail using FRA-Compliant, 79-mph DMU's
-Run service mostly on existing Freight Rail Track, perhaps adding an additional track to the ROW where needed.
-In south Metro Denver run it up the Sante Fe freight line, parallel to the SW Light Rail Line.
-Have stations at Mineral, Englewood, I-25/Broadway & Union Station, all of which will be transfer stations with existing Light Rail Stations.
-Run on the CML into Union Station, with a new platform branching off between the CML tracks and the Light Rail platforms, where it can drop off and pick up passengers transferring between Light Rail and Buses.
-The train then loops around the Prospect District to the Commuter Rail lines so it can pull back into Union Station at the Commuter Rail Terminal, where it can pick up and drop off passengers transferring between RTD's Commuter Rail/AmTrak services.
-From here, this line would run on the East Corridor EMU line to Denver International Airport, for it's end-of-line.

NORTH FRONT RANGE LINE:
-Front Range Commuter Rail using FRA-Compliant, 79-mph DMU's (same as south line)
-Run service mostly on existing Freight Rail Track and RTD's NW Rail line.
-Start route at Fort Collins at a shared transfer station with their planned BRT line. Also have stations in Loveland and Longmont.
-The Longmont Station would be a shared transfer station with RTD's planned NW Rail line. The North Front Range line would run on the RTD NW track the rest of the way into Union Station, sharing all of RTD's infrastructure from here on south.
-Additional stops located at RTD NW Rail Stations in Boulder Transit Village, Louisville, Flatiron/96th Street-Broomfield, 71st Ave-Westminster & Denver Union Station (DUS) Commuter Rail Terminal.
-From DUS, the North Front Range Rail line would run on RTD's East Corridor EMU line to Denver International Airport, for it's end-of-line.

CONCLUSION:
I think this model presents a starter Front Range system which is both economical and practical for a service launch in only a few short years from the date of secured funding. One major point of emphasis, is that this plan would allow for all front Range commuter rail passengers to have one-seat rides to both Denver Union Station and Denver International Airport. the RMRA report clearly identified this one-seat service to Denver International Airport as a major ridership amplifier, over any setup which would require passengers to have to make a transfer to get to the airport. I think the one-seat service to DUS, will also serve as a ridership amplifier, for the exact same reasons. My proposed alignment accommodated both these ridership amplifiers and also has stops in the urbanized centers of the major cities along the route, as opposed to along the interstate highway system. Such an alignment would not rule out future track upgrades in at least key sections between urban areas, to allow for up to 110-mph service. These upgrades could be made in phases, as funding permits.

INTEGRATION WITH DUS: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ↑ To Ft Collins . . . . . .. To DIA →

. . . . ↓ To Colorado Springs-Pueblo

GREEN = South Front Range Commuter Rail
Blue = North Front Range Commuter Rail
RED = RTD Light Rail

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by SnyderBock

I say give Boulder and Longmont the DMU train, but not until the state CDOT, injects it with some funds for a Front Range Commuter Rail Starter Program.

This I could go for, although I think those cities should chip in as well, not just CDOT.

And don't forget the Berthoud station!

EDIT: Not sure I agree that north and south both need to run to DIA. I think that's just a matter of educating the public about what RTD has to offer from Union Station. The Air Train is only 29 minutes to DIA, with 15 minute headways... that's not an unreasonable transfer, is it? I'm not sure that RTD's ROW can accommodate the frequencies we're planning for the Air Train, plus all Front Range Intercity routes as well. I'd just assume run trains from Ft. Collins to Pueblo (I'm sure some ROW can be found north of DUS, up near 38th, to make the transition), with a program to help folks understand the DIA transfer. Or some combination seems more likely - every third north/south train runs through to DIA. But not all.

[SnyderBock]

Good points. The AirTran would be a different system and different ticket purchase (unless they could negotiate a transfer ticket deal with RTD). If the front Range rail did share the east line to DIA, and there were capacity issues, the Front Range rail project would need to pay for capacity upgrades from their budget and commission a percentage of their collected fairs to RTD for use of the East line.

For a project with no identified funding, limiting extra costs will be important. Terminating both the North and South Front Range lines in Denver Union Station (especially since it has been designed as a terminus after-all, not a through station), would be wise. This way, front range rail passengers would get off at Union Station and transfer to whichever line/bus they need from there. I'd say make their tickets transfer tickets, valid on all RTD services. Or better yet, offer a non-transfer ticket at a lower price and a transfer ticket at a premium price, with the transfer ticket being an all day RTD pass.

How about this idea... Pursuing a PPP for the Front Range Rail with Greyhound? It will be Greyhound most affected by front Range rail. But if Greyhound were in a PPP with this project as part of the Maintaining-Operator contract (Perhaps AmTrak and Greyhound could team up for this), they would recover any lost revenue from their bus routes and then could also integrate their remaining bus route schedules at every front Range rail station.

P.S. yes, I read Denverurbanism post on Greyhound =)

[taylor23]

The Daily Camera had an interesting article relating to the US36 discussion the other day.

http://www.dailycamera.com/ci_17396499

[trubador]

I wonder if they could fund a 36 HOV lane by making a toll lane like I-25 has done north of downtown.

[taylor23]

Originally Posted by trubador

I wonder if they could fund a 36 HOV lane by making a toll lane like I-25 has done north of downtown.

I’m sure tolling as well as HOV is part of the plan. The anticipation of toll revenue is helping to pay for the project. I think I remember reading about that somewhere.

I almost think it would be better to make the existing HOV 2 way instead of extending all the way to Interlooken. It seems most of the time I hit traffic on 36 or 25 I'm already to the HOV, it is just running the opposite direction.

[lostknight]

Originally Posted by Brainpathology

If DMU service to Boulder is absolutely mandatory why didn't Boulder insist on a route that actually went into Boulder instead of tangentially skimming the eastside of town?

Terminating at the 20th Street mall gives it fairly easy access to both downtime (via perl) and campus, without having to buy new right of ways. Plus RTD already owns the Valmont line and will sooner or later want to leverage.

Bear in mind, that vast majority of density increases are going to be focused on this area. Pearl is about as built out as it is going to be, and the Peloton is just one of many developments that will spring up along a axis between 28th street and Pearl Street. Not the least of which is the mega development opposite the transit village.

I know you guys are a lot more knowledgable about Speer then Pearl, but there is nothing wrong with the alignment that they have now.

If you're really going to insist on the rail plan as is with it just baaaaaarely making it into town with a stop which is really just on the way to somewhere else that's fine. But from a former resident of Boulder's point of view that is going to go in the same bin as Boulder's "diversity". Speaking of, who's turn is it to be Boulder's African American Resident this year anyway (who isn't on the football team)?

What a way to end your post.

[lostknight]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Translation of what lostknight just said: [i]"Boulderites refuse to do the right thing environmentally or socially unless they are bribed / bought off with an expensive, ineffective, and redundant rail project that few of them will ever use.

BS. And you know it. Boulder has been one of the longest proponents of mass transit while Denver was still pretending that Greyhound could meet all of their transit needs.

Boulderites, just like the rest of the state, want a top notch transit system, and are willing to pay for it. Cutting them out to focus more on Denver is selfish, shortsighted, and greedy.

Boulderites demand a train because they think having a useful bus AND a redundant train that they'll never use is more 'fair' to the region than not wasting money on the redundant train."

Gee. How dare the uppity Boulder transit consumers ask that they are provided with what they agreed to when the voted en masse for light rail. How dare they expect bus and train service, even though Denver thinks that it should take the money, and spend it, gasp, on Denver.

I do not forgive Boulder for slamming the door on growth and pushing all its sprawl out to the rest of the region.

They made the choice to preserve quality of life in their city. I suspect that if Denver had to do it again, they would have made the same choices. Can Boulder be obnoxious at times on enviornmental things? Yes. No argument there. Does that give Denver the right to leave Boulder high and dry? Not at all.

Better go look up what the R in RTD stands for again. Hint, it's not D for Denver.

[Cirrus]

Does that give Denver the right to leave Boulder high and dry?

Boulder is not being left high and dry, and you know it.

You will not get one iota of sympathy from me or (probably) anyone as long as you continue to claim otherwise.

[Brainpathology]

Originally Posted by lostknight

Better go look up what the R in RTD stands for again. Hint, it's not D for Denver.

What's the web address for RTD?

[Brainpathology]

Originally Posted by lostknight

What a way to end your post.

Thanks! So, you don't actually know his or her name then?

[Cirrus]

How dare the uppity Boulder transit consumers ask that they are provided with what they agreed to when the voted en masse for light rail.

First of all, Boulder was never promised light rail. Anyone in Boulder who voted for light rail didn't know what they were voting for.

Second of all, in case you haven't noticed, there's not enough money to build everything, so something has to be cut. If we don't cut Boulder's redundant and unnecessary rail line, then that means some other community doesn't get anything at all. It means somebody out there WILL ACTUALLY be left high and dry.

But you wouldn't care about that, would you? Because you're Boulder, dammit, and that means the rest of the region should eat shit in order for you to get what you want.

Sorry, but east of Davidson mesa that doesn't fly. And the more you repeat it, the more enemies you make.

I won't agree to cut some other community out entirely in order to give Boulder twice what it needs.

[bunt_q]

But, but, buses are for poor people. We don't want BRT. WE WANT OUR TRAIN, waaaah.


EDIT: If the train is so important to Boulder, why don't we cut the BRT, the B, and the BX buses. That's not exactly unprecedented - RTD has cut bus services, especially regional and express services, all over the metro area to push people on to rail lines. And they plan to do a lot more of that post-Fastracks, turning many, many routes into train feeders. So let's do the same for Boulder. Re-route Boulder buses to the transit village. Re-route Superior/Louisville/Lafayette buses to the Louisville station. Re-route Broomfield buses to the Broomfield stations. And eliminate all direct buses between those communities to Denver - that's what the train is for. If Boulder truly wants to be treated fairly, to be treated the same as other metro area communities, that would be exactly what we do. Those are extremely expensive routes to run, and they will be redundant once the train comes online. Granted, it would be a mobility disaster, just like it is in the SW metro, would have been in Parker had the P been cut as planned, and just like it will be in Golden and the west suburbs when the west corridor opens. It adds significantly to almost everybody's door-to-door commute times. But it's a sexy train, and that's what counts. Ha, then Boulder would feel slighted. Equity's a bitch.

While we're at it, we could just eliminate the standalone bus network that RTD provides to Boulder - complete with its own set of route numbers, its own bus barn, and its own operations staff. That's a relic of a time when Boulder was a much more significant player in the metro area. Forget Denver. These days, Aurora, Arvada, Centennial, Lakewood, Thornton, and Westminster (not to mention unincorporated Jefferson and Douglas counties) all have more people than Boulder. If you want true metro equity, those areas all need their own route systems, their own bus barns, their own operations staffs, same as Boulder gets. They pay the same taxes Boulder does. If anything, to make RTD more regional and more fair, Boulder's bus service needs to be seriously reduced. To be fair, it should get the equivalent of what Longmont gets, which, needless to say, would cost a lot less and provide drastically inferior service. But alas, the Boulderites wanted what is fair.

Boulder has wanted to have its cake and eat it for far too long. But after 30 years of that, its voting power is significantly reduced. Time to start rolling back all of the special benefits Boulder has enjoyed since it truly was the second-city in the metro area. It's not anymore - that title goes to Aurora.